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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 26, 2010 14:38:28 GMT -5
I agree completely... I was under the impression that you were still thinking about keeping the Emo's. I have not heard them before, but I would imagine they would be in similar class to the 600 series B&W at the price point. I wanted to pose an alternative to keeping a bit of the B&W sound at the Emo' price point. That said, I would keep the 804S for sure especially for what you got them for, but everyones value/permance ratio is different. I am still looking for a used HTM3S as when I bought my 804S a month ago I could not get a HTM3S in rosenut. Let me know if you have a HTM3S in rosenut for sale. I wish mine were rosenut, all 3 of them are cherry. The rosenut is both harder to find, and more expensive on the used market. It is freaking gorgeous though. If I had been able to find them in Rosenut, the wife would probably be a lot happier about keeping them.
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Post by southpaw on Jan 26, 2010 15:52:04 GMT -5
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 26, 2010 16:12:17 GMT -5
I saw those as well. They look kind if like VM1's, but I don't think they are. They do seem to be some kind of "lifestyle" range type speaker. I've never really paid much attention to that whole part of the B&W line.
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Post by stuofsci02 on Jan 26, 2010 16:28:39 GMT -5
Yes.. Nice Thread hijack.... They are FPM5..
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Post by SeattleHTGuy on Jan 26, 2010 17:59:42 GMT -5
shawmcdigdis, Well since you asked about my room and thanks by the way....
I believe we made a mistake with the dipoles. Ititally, I went with the advice of a major installer who recommended DiPoles for the rears. IMHO with a 7.1 system and a solid rear wall like mine, I believe it is best to use monopoles, especially for movies and TV. If you are placing speakers in a 5.1 Configuration then it would be very nice to have a switchable dipole monopole.
Now, since I am a finance guy, it is great (although I'm sure a bit tough to take) to see you attempting restraint. I still think you can keep the B&Ws though and not feel a need to have 11.1 now. First, if your room can't accomodate it, you won't see much value. Second, although I'm loving 9.2 right now, I still believe it's best to build a core 5.1 solution and stick with that for quite some time. Really, very little interesting material takes advantage of 7.1 now or 11. whatever in the future. I'm of the opinion that any expansion in speakers should be 5.1, then 5.1 + DSX Wides, then 9.1 (Wides). So, your OK for quite some time with quality 5.1. B&Ws are the quality part of the equation. Heck I went 7 plus years in 7.1 and was happy.
So, I'd do monopoles if on the back wall; sual purpose on the side.
I must add, I'm a layman with only my experience and some good advice (a little bad too) to guide me.
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Post by SeattleHTGuy on Jan 26, 2010 18:08:15 GMT -5
Oh, also..... There is no way you "need" the XPA-1s to drive those B&Ws or for that matter the Emo Speakers. It's a total luxury. The XPA-3 will do just fine to dang great....
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Post by southpaw on Jan 26, 2010 19:28:12 GMT -5
Yes.. Nice Thread hijack.... They are FPM5.. Certainly didn't mean to hijack - I knew everyone in this thread was discussing B&W speakers and didn't want to clutter up the forum with that quick question. Anyway, I'm going to my local audio retailer tomorrow to demo some B&W. I'm specifically going to listen to the CM9 but will check out whatever they have to offer. A seller on ebay has a pair of CM9's for $2400 shipped which isn't too bad. I probably should leave my credit card at home so I don't end up taking home a pair of 804s. lol
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Post by stuofsci02 on Jan 26, 2010 23:17:02 GMT -5
Yes.. Nice Thread hijack.... They are FPM5.. Certainly didn't mean to hijack - I knew everyone in this thread was discussing B&W speakers and didn't want to clutter up the forum with that quick question. Anyway, I'm going to my local audio retailer tomorrow to demo some B&W. I'm specifically going to listen to the CM9 but will check out whatever they have to offer. A seller on ebay has a pair of CM9's for $2400 shipped which isn't too bad. I probably should leave my credit card at home so I don't end up taking home a pair of 804s. lol Don't worry.. I was only kidding around... You probably don't need to worry about leaving with a pair of 804s.. I don't think most dealers will have any left. Just don't go back in March or you might leave with a really expensive set of 804Di.. ;D CM9s look nice.. I have not heard them, but I have heard the CM7 and liked it.. Just needed some more oooomph... The CM9 looks good in that area..
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 27, 2010 11:54:42 GMT -5
So me and the wife sat down for about 2-3 hours of listening to stereo music last night on the B&W's. I let her pick out all the music, so she could hear the things she wanted. At the end of the night her take on them was, "I want to listen to the Emo's again, I don't think I like these speakers. I can't relax when I listen to them"
I can only assume she is finding the high end clarity fatiguing. She said when she first listened to the Emo's "her head relaxed" and she doesn't get that with the B&W's. I think the soft dome tweeter and less defined mids in the Emo's are more to her liking.
It's going to be really hard to keep the B&W's if the wife doesn't like them. Tonight or tomorrow I am going to try some blind A / B tests with her. Turn Audyssey off and just run each speaker flat with no proccessing, and see which one she likes better.
Another thing she has noticed and doesn't like, is how the B&W's don't cover up bad recordings, they just sound bad. She's not to happy about that either, as she is used to speakers that cover up a lot of the bad recording and production on most albums.
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Post by stuofsci02 on Jan 27, 2010 12:41:38 GMT -5
So me and the wife sat down for about 2-3 hours of listening to stereo music last night on the B&W's. I let her pick out all the music, so she could hear the things she wanted. At the end of the night her take on them was, "I want to listen to the Emo's again, I don't think I like these speakers. I can't relax when I listen to them" I can only assume she is finding the high end clarity fatiguing. She said when she first listened to the Emo's "her head relaxed" and she doesn't get that with the B&W's. I think the soft dome tweeter and less defined mids in the Emo's are more to her liking. It's going to be really hard to keep the B&W's if the wife doesn't like them. Tonight or tomorrow I am going to try some blind A / B tests with her. Turn Audyssey off and just run each speaker flat with no proccessing, and see which one she likes better. Another thing she has noticed and doesn't like, is how the B&W's don't cover up bad recordings, they just sound bad. She's not to happy about that either, as she is used to speakers that cover up a lot of the bad recording and production on most albums. This is interesting... Although I don't know that speakers can cover up a bad recording, as much as they are not detailed enough to play the bad parts.. One thing I suggest you try if you haven't already is to play both speakers at low volumes (as if your kids are asleep) and you just want some background music.. Then see what you like better.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 27, 2010 13:39:49 GMT -5
This is interesting... Although I don't know that speakers can cover up a bad recording, as much as they are not detailed enough to play the bad parts.. One thing I suggest you try if you haven't already is to play both speakers at low volumes (as if your kids are asleep) and you just want some background music.. Then see what you like better. Well that's what I meant, speakers that don't show the detail enough, so in effect it "covers up" bad recordings. "while the kids are asleep" is funny, because that's when I can play my music and movies loud. They spent the first 5 weeks of their lives in the NICU, so they have learned to sleep through noise, and I odn't plan on lettign them forget how to do that That is a good idea though to listen turned down a bit. Not that we had it very loud last night, but it was a little on the high side. She actually did make that comment, that maybe it was just because they were loud and she listened for so long and that's why it got to her. I'll try that tonight. Just put some music on softly and see what she thinks.
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Post by SeattleHTGuy on Jan 27, 2010 14:13:27 GMT -5
You are making me laugh (In a good way - not intended to be spiteful as some post).
Where you stand now is muddier is better, or at least to your wife? A muffled sound is more pleasant. I guess it is what it is and what you are saying is not all that odd when considering watching a dynamic "Blow Em Up" type movie. It can be an enjoyable experience to not get slammed with very accurate and sometimes even shrill sound.
It's just an odd reason to keep the Emo's..... "They seem to "cover up" things. Good luck, I can just see you after putting the kids to sleep, staring at the wall.... Should I... Shouldn't I? Should I shouldn't I? until you fall asleep. I think you now have too much data and it is overwhelming the choice.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 27, 2010 14:50:15 GMT -5
So I think someone earlier in the thread mentioned Gallo Reference 3.1's. Does anyone have direct experience with them compared to B&W's? It would seem that they have a center that is a near identical match (minus the 10" woofer) for the 3.1, and the whole system would be considerably less expensive than the B&W's.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 27, 2010 14:53:08 GMT -5
You are making me laugh (In a good way - not intended to be spiteful as some post). Where you stand now is muddier is better, or at least to your wife? A muffled sound is more pleasant. I guess it is what it is and what you are saying is not all that odd when considering watching a dynamic "Blow Em Up" type movie. It can be an enjoyable experience to not get slammed with very accurate and sometimes even shrill sound. It's just an odd reason to keep the Emo's..... "They seem to "cover up" things. Good luck, I can just see you after putting the kids to sleep, staring at the wall.... Should I... Shouldn't I? Should I shouldn't I? until you fall asleep. I think you now have too much data and it is overwhelming the choice. Laugh away Seattle, it is funny, not for me, but looking fro the outside I know it is funny. Actually she doens't mind them for movies, but there is something about them that she doesn't like for music. The Emo's aren't an option for me. LIke I said the matching of the center and mains are my big concern now, and the Emo's do not match. Well not at least close to the level that the B&W's do, and that is what I want now.
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Post by stuofsci02 on Jan 27, 2010 15:55:13 GMT -5
Sometimes people can get so used to they way they have heard music that an impovement can sometimes be heard as "not as good" or bothersome until they grow accustom to the improvements.
I think this might be a little bit the case in your situation. The 804s is a very neutral revealing speaker. If you make a big step up to it, it might be a bit much.
And most importantly, if a recording is garbage, the 804s won't sugar coat it. But this is the price of Hi-Fi I am afraid.. There are lots of artists I like, but whose recordings are poor... They all live in my car now. Its not that the B&W's can't play them, but rather, I know how they can and should sound and I don't want to listen to them any other way. Try to identify your poor recordings and stay away from them when auditioning..
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 27, 2010 16:48:34 GMT -5
Sometimes people can get so used to they way they have heard music that an impovement can sometimes be heard as "not as good" or bothersome until they grow accustom to the improvements. I think this might be a little bit the case in your situation. The 804s is a very neutral revealing speaker. If you make a big step up to it, it might be a bit much. And most importantly, if a recording is garbage, the 804s won't sugar coat it. But this is the price of Hi-Fi I am afraid.. There are lots of artists I like, but whose recordings are poor... They all live in my car now. Its not that the B&W's can't play them, but rather, I know how they can and should sound and I don't want to listen to them any other way. Try to identify your poor recordings and stay away from them when auditioning.. I completely agree. The problem is, the only speakers she has heard for the past few years have been my B&W P5's. Now these aren't nearly as good as the 804s, but they aren't bad. So she should be used to a pretty good level of clarity. I think the Emo's are on the same level of detail as the P5's, they just have a different tonal quality, I think that is what she likes about them. I prefer the B&W's sound. The Emo's do lack enough clarity to mask bad recordings better than the B&W's, so there is that "benefit", but I don't care about that.
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Post by 0pter0n on Jan 27, 2010 17:16:27 GMT -5
shawmcbigdis,
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.
1) My room is roughly 18' long x 9' wide by 8' high. Originally, the front speakers were on either side of the 4' cabinet at the end of the room, making the front of them about 14' from the couch where I sit at the other end of the room. I played around with bringing them closer by 2 - 3 feet and tried different spacing between them from adjacent to up right up against the side walls. But it just wasn't what I wanted.
After talking with Vince, I moved them up so that they were 8' in front of the couch and started repeating the same process - move them together and spread them apart in increments of 2". After each move, I wrote down where they were and any impressions I had of the change in the sound. I then moved them closer to the couch by 2" and started all over again with the lateral moves until I got them to where they sounded the best on the couple of minutes on the couple of tracks that I hear in my sleep now. I then used an SPL to make sure that they were equal in DB's in the center of the couch (even though I tend to sit off center to one side while my wife sits off center to the other). You are correct - the best sound has been obtained by flying in the face of conventional wisdom. But, I didn't choose the end position for any other reason than the remarkable results I obtained. Purists may file litigation at their leisure.
Friends who have heard them, including a guy who does live theater sound for a living have been equally bowled over.
The Klipsch I have are not ported speakers, although they do have a 10" passive radiator on the back. Even so, I would give it a try with the Emotiva's and the B&W's, if your back (and your wife) can handle it.
I always thought I had a terrible room - now I think I just didn't know how to make the most of it, and that's why I am so grateful to Vince.
2) My wife and I went to a number of showrooms and while we were impressed with the B&W's, we both found an odd sort of almost lifelessness to the sound, however accurate they may have been on the recordings I heard with them. A reviewer somewhere called them "forensic." I have been told and often read that B&W's do inspire a clear positive or negative response in the listener. So, your wife is hardly alone in what she seems to be saying about them. In a perfect world, of course, you would both feel the same way about the same speakers.
At the risk of repeating myself, if you can live with the appearance of the result as we can, I hope you will try out breaking some of the "rules" just to hear what happens.
You might also give Vince a call and let him know what you are working with.
In any event, I do hope you'll let all of us here know how things turn out.
Jon
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Post by southpaw on Jan 27, 2010 17:37:05 GMT -5
OH MY GOD....I just got back from my local B&W retailer and demoed the CM9's. The imaging is so spectacular. Seamless pans across the front soundstage. This is what I want in my home theater. I LOVE the laid back warm tone that they convey without losing any detail or clarity. I also listened to the 683's and while they sounded great and had that same warmth to them, the imaging and soundstage wasn't as enveloping. I am in total agreement now with Shawn regarding the Emotiva 6.3 center. As that is what I'm using now, it's now obvious to me that it is the weak link in my setup. I just couldn't believe how crystal clear dialogue came through on this setup. The sales guy I was working with removed the center channel so I could see the difference in how dialogue came through the mains and I couldn't tell the difference. That speaks volumes. A couple of thoughts/problems: I don't care for the CM1 bookshelf that would be used as surrounds in a 5.1 setup. First, I would need to buy a separate mount to mount them to my wall. Second, they are direct firing and I've gotten use to the dipole/bipole design like the ERD-1's. Second, I loved the way they sounded but do I want to shell out about $3k to upgrade? (difference between buying the CM9's and selling the Emotiva) The retailer did tell me that I could take home their demo units to try in my home to make sure they are a good fit and I love them. Shawn, SeattleHTguy, what do you guys think about using the ERD's as surrounds with B&W's up front? Thoughts overall?
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 27, 2010 18:00:08 GMT -5
OH MY GOD....I just got back from my local B&W retailer and demoed the CM9's. The imaging is so spectacular. Seamless pans across the front soundstage. This is what I want in my home theater. I LOVE the laid back warm tone that they convey without losing any detail or clarity. I also listened to the 683's and while they sounded great and had that same warmth to them, the imaging and soundstage wasn't as enveloping. I am in total agreement now with Shawn regarding the Emotiva 6.3 center. As that is what I'm using now, it's now obvious to me that it is the weak link in my setup. I just couldn't believe how crystal clear dialogue came through on this setup. The sales guy I was working with removed the center channel so I could see the difference in how dialogue came through the mains and I couldn't tell the difference. That speaks volumes. A couple of thoughts/problems: I don't care for the CM1 bookshelf that would be used as surrounds in a 5.1 setup. First, I would need to buy a separate mount to mount them to my wall. Second, they are direct firing and I've gotten use to the dipole/bipole design like the ERD-1's. Second, I loved the way they sounded but do I want to shell out about $3k to upgrade? (difference between buying the CM9's and selling the Emotiva) The retailer did tell me that I could take home their demo units to try in my home to make sure they are a good fit and I love them. Shawn, SeattleHTguy, what do you guys think about using the ERD's as surrounds with B&W's up front? Thoughts overall? I am actually using the ERD's as my surrounds right now with the 804's. It's surprisingly not bad. For multi channel music you would want to get an actual matching speaker, but for budget constraints you can probably live with them for mainly HT use. You could pick up some B&W DS7's on the used market, but they still go for about $900, so mot much less than the CM1's, but they do have the benefit of switching between direct radiating and dipole. I was thinking about that, until this whole B&W hatred my wife has started displaying. Along with I think I am not going to go with dipoles, but direct radiators. Thats a whole can of worms right there, but the main thing being movies are mastered with discrete channels now, and with proper placement 5 (or 7) direct radiators are going to give you the best sound with true discrete full range sound tracks.
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Post by stuofsci02 on Jan 27, 2010 19:19:31 GMT -5
OH MY GOD....I just got back from my local B&W retailer and demoed the CM9's. The imaging is so spectacular. Seamless pans across the front soundstage. This is what I want in my home theater. I LOVE the laid back warm tone that they convey without losing any detail or clarity. Welcome to the dark side.....
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