Listening to the UMC-1

[kumayama]

I think the AVS poster is quite insightful. Up until the emergence of the pre-pro, there were engineers who more or less understood analog circuitry, whether tube or SS. The quality (and sometimes innovativeness) of the analog design and the ability to determine sonically superior individual electronic components to a great extent influenced both the quality and price of audio equipment. To a great extent, this is still true for 2 channel audio systems today.

But in the era of digital components such as pre-pros (and multifunction Bluray players) whose performance is as much or more influenced by software as it is by the components and analog design the skill set of the designer has expanded into an area that few of the traditional analog designers are capable of matching. Even the greatest of analog designers, such as Nelson Pass, simply don't have the skill set to deal with the complex software development required of many modern HT components. I respectfully suggest that this likely applies to Lonnie and Dan as well, which may have something to do with why the Emotiva amplifiers have been so uniformly successful (and prolifically introduced), but that those components heavily driven by software have been a much greater challenge. Over time, the skill sets of the future generations of HT design will be better matched to the product requirements, and I would not be surprised that in the not far distant future, we may see after-market modifications of the software within HT components, and there will be a new generation of high end video products once again emerging from small private companies. Just some thoughts, nothing more.

[pynchon]

I think that is a great point. There are many high-end companies that produce amazing amplifiers and so-so processors. A few can do both very well.
And in terms of 2nd market software, for instance, my lexicon dc-1 - there is a person who offers a card install that will turn some of the rear inputs into a 7.1 analogue so that you can pass thru DDHD and other new sound processes - so for my PS3, which can output those it would work, unfortunately PS3 does not have analogue outputs and dc-1 of course does not have hdmi - but if I had the Oppo 83 or any blu ray with 7.1 analogue, then I could just have the card installed and have all the new codecs processed by it and passed thru my dc-1.
A pretty neat 2nd market install.

[ratmice]

Jan 29, 2010 20:52:21 GMT -5 @snodog said:

Ok I am a bit lost. What exactly is DSD? How is that different from 7.1 analog, besides obviously being digital vs analog and why would this be preferred by some?

check out this page for a decent explanation:

www.dsdproaudio.com/html/dsd_sacd_explained.html

[snodog]

Thanks ratmice, hmmm was really looking forward to trying SACD, now I understand it uses DSD. No multi-channel music either. Damn...So what is a good multi-player to work with the UMC? Will the SACD still work but with the analogs instead of the HDMI? I was under the impression that is what SACD was, using the analog 7 or 5.1

[moe]

I use hdmi for sacd and dvd audio with my UMC and it does a great job,sounds just as good if not better than the 7.1 analog in.If you read up on the oppo 83 you'll find some say it's really a digital machine(it excells in the digital domain)that's where the money and tech went in this unit.

I had/used dsd on my set up of a few years ago,my current set up with the oppo 83 and umc is far superior over all.

[ratmice]

Not to worry, most (all?) players will convert DSD to PCM and output it over analog and/or HDMI. Or, you can send DSD natively over HDMI which is then processed by the AVR. It needs to be transcoded to PCM so post-processing can occur, I think. The Oppo BDP-83 is a great SACD/DVD-A/Blu-Ray player. The new BDP-80, the 83s little brother, should prove to be good, too. Many universal player options out there.

[snodog]

Yes I was looking at the Bdp-80 and was curious if the audio would be close to the 83. I have not listened to any Oppos so just not sure. If the UMC can upscale the video then maybe the 83 wouldn't be quite as much of an advantage vs the 80? Not sure I read on the Oppo site that the 80 had shared analog outputs, but I dont know what the hell that means either...lol guess I dont know much

[ratmice]

The Oppo 83 uses the Anchor Bay VRS (ABT2010) a superb video chip. It's particularly good with upscaling DVD material, so if you own a ot of DVDs it's a good choice. The analog section is great in the 83 as well. If you don't have a lot of DVDs and already own a great CD player I'd go for the 80.

[moe]

If you read the Audioholics review of the 83 as well as others,almost the first line is,Stellar hdmi audio and "respectable analog",thats been my findings too.

On the umc1,I've been doing something I seldom do,listening at lower levels.It's like I can still hear everything except I don't have to have it cranked up.I usually listen at louder than average levels because I can get a better dynamic presentation.With the umc even at low volume I get it all,just really impressed musically.

[markd]

Jan 29, 2010 21:22:21 GMT -5 kumayama said:

But in the era of digital components such as pre-pros (and multifunction Bluray players) whose performance is as much or more influenced by software as it is by the components and analog design the skill set of the designer has expanded into an area that few of the traditional analog designers are capable of matching. Even the greatest of analog designers, such as Nelson Pass, simply don't have the skill set to deal with the complex software development required of many modern HT components. I respectfully suggest that this likely applies to Lonnie and Dan as well, which may have something to do with why the Emotiva amplifiers have been so uniformly successful (and prolifically introduced), but that those components heavily driven by software have been a much greater challenge. Over time, the skill sets of the future generations of HT design will be better matched to the product requirements, and I would not be surprised that in the not far distant future, we may see after-market modifications of the software within HT components, and there will be a new generation of high end video products once again emerging from small private companies. Just some thoughts, nothing more.

Very few (if any) of the successful products are coming out of one man shops. A modern pre-pro needs at least 3 or 4 (differently) skilled hardware designers, and probably twice that many software people- assuming you are starting from an established code base, not trying to write dolby digital decode from scratch.

Building the ML 502, we had 5 digital engineers and one analog. One mechanical. SW team had a couple of DSP focused engineers, and about 10 (some were offsite, so I'm not sure exactly how many there were) software engineers writing chip drivers, configuration software, GUI development, etc. Two dedicated SW people doing diagnostics and test SW.

On aftermarket SW, HDCP makes that a tough road- you are required by license agreement to seal up your SW tight. It would take a new architecture that allows the content to be protected but still expose other pieces of the system to developers. . . where is the benefit to the original company? I don't think you will find anyone willing to spend the resources on a project like that.

I think the only way you would see something like this is if someone were to do PC based project- then you might be able to lower the bar enough.

[Nemesis.ie]

Do you have Dolby Volume enabled? That is one of the things it is supposed to do - give you all the detail at lower listening levels.

[NorthStar]

What is the video processor used in the UMC-1?

[moe]

If you go to the Emo home page,click umc1 you'll find good info.

[tb123]

Jan 29, 2010 21:29:48 GMT -5 pynchon said:

I think that is a great point. There are many high-end companies that produce amazing amplifiers and so-so processors. A few can do both very well.
And in terms of 2nd market software, for instance, my lexicon dc-1 - there is a person who offers a card install that will turn some of the rear inputs into a 7.1 analogue so that you can pass thru DDHD and other new sound processes - so for my PS3, which can output those it would work, unfortunately PS3 does not have analogue outputs and dc-1 of course does not have hdmi - but if I had the Oppo 83 or any blu ray with 7.1 analogue, then I could just have the card installed and have all the new codecs processed by it and passed thru my dc-1.
A pretty neat 2nd market install.

This is a fairly general observation, but it appears that many of the Japanese manufacturers (Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer etc) have a pretty good handle on the smoke and mirros technology of HDMI and the digital age whereas many of the traditional amplifier (analog) companies really do seem to be struggling with it's implementation.

[dfdo]

snodog, go with Oppo 83 if you are primarily in digital domain. Go with Oppo 83SE if you prefer 7.1 analog out from the source. Oppo 83SE has an amazing d/a and analog section. Better than most of the pre/pros out there. Oppo 80 has the same audio decoder section as bdp-83 but d/a and analog section is from their dv-983 dvd player. Bdp-80 does not have a secondary video processor like in bdp-83. I think bdp-80 is much suited as a universal transport.

[snodog]

Yeah I think I am going to get the 83. I would like to buy the Erc-1 sometime for getting into 2 channel but can only get one thing at a time after just shelling out 550 for a center speaker. That and my PS3 will work for a while.

[venaka]

Jan 31, 2010 0:08:13 GMT -5 @snodog said:

Yeah I think I am going to get the 83. I would like to buy the Erc-1 sometime for getting into 2 channel but can only get one thing at a time after just shelling out 550 for a center speaker. That and my PS3 will work for a while.

Or save even more money and set the ps3 to linear and enjoy

[moe]

Jan 30, 2010 7:15:42 GMT -5 Nemesis.ie said:

Do you have Dolby Volume enabled? That is one of the things it is supposed to do - give you all the detail at lower listening levels.

No I have not tried it yet,I read it has an issue,I will give it a try though.

[snodog]

Venaka, I always thought the PS3 did a fair job and sounded good for the most part, but I was under the impression that the Oppo 83 has very good sound, wouldnt it be worth buying?

[venaka]

Jan 31, 2010 12:00:30 GMT -5 @snodog said:

Venaka, I always thought the PS3 did a fair job and sounded good for the most part, but I was under the impression that the Oppo 83 has very good sound, wouldnt it be worth buying?

oppo is great, but you have an ak-47 type solid music/blu-ray player.
set it to linear and get dts hd ma and save all that cash for speaker upgrade or something thats gonna last..not a mediaplayer..ie..oppo83, 84, 85, 86..and this is all within the next 5 years probably.

my umc-1 and ps3 combo is heaven.