XPA-2 vs B&K TX 4430 Quick take...

[Porscheguy]

So, I got the bad news the other day that I'll be waiting a long, long time for my UMC-1, so I decided I'd put my HT back together and just deal with it.

I've also purchased a ERC-1 so this is it's maiden voyage as well. I'm using my AVP 8000 (no slouch) along with the XPA-2, Tributaries interconnects and Emo U series speaker interconnects. No burn in time on the amp. The B&K TX 4430 is a 3 X 200 watt THX certified power amp that cost $1800.00 in the mid 90's.

These are casual first listens.....

First of all, the XPA-2 is replacing a very good B&K amp. I'm not making the huge leap that some are from mid powered receivers. Having said that..........

Soundstage and imaging: Tough one here because I also also replaced my gigantic 65" Mits RPTV with a 65" Panny plasma that does not occupy anywhere near the real estate between the speakers. But the imaging has improved enough to notice easily. Not sure if it's the XPA-2 or not.

Timbre and subjective sq: There is no doubt that that this amp (and ERC-1) expose or reveal more of the subtle nuances. It/they are also more forward sounding than the B&K which was kind of laid back. Playing music at moderately high levels brings out a bit of grittiness. I've had to dial back the tweeter output on my Snell C/V. Not too happy about that.

Bass and extension: Tighter mid bass and I would say the extension is about the same as the B&K.

Headroom: The XPA-2 is the winner here, but not by a whole lot. The B&K is pretty good in this department.

Noise floor: Inaudible

So, there you have it. Some questions remain in my mind about some brightness but is it the XPA-2 or the ERC-1? I'm going to listen to the same CD's through the Oppo BDP 83 for a comparison.

I'll be holding off putting my B&K amps on Ebay for now....... I also have a UPA-7 I haven't even plugged in yet......

[ntrain42]

I dont know if Id call B&K a good amp, they were notorious for QC issues, the few years I sold em back in the mid 90's we had a defective return rate of almost 60%, and thats no joke or exagerration either. Im surprised your B&K unit is still operational, they dont like to be driven hard, and their secondary caps are known to leak and cold soldier joints are issues that have plagued em for years..........I honestly would tell you to sell it while its still fully functional......LOL!

Lemme guess? You got it from Tweeter? Manchester or Nashua store? I could have sold you that amp, LOL!

[Porscheguy]

Jan 24, 2010 10:49:59 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

I dont know if Id call B&K a good amp, they were notorious for QC issues, the few years I sold em back in the mid 90's we had a defective return rate of almost 60%, and thats no joke or exagerration either. Im surprised your B&K unit is still operational, they dont like to be driven hard, and their secondary caps are known to leak and cold soldier joints are issues that have plagued em for years..........I honestly would tell you to sell it while its still fully functional......LOL!

Lemme guess? You got it from Tweeter? Manchester or Nashua store? I could have sold you that amp, LOL!

Well I've got two, they are fifteen years old, they sound great. They have never been problematic, ever. As far as sound quality, I went through a lot of other gear, various receivers from Denon and Yamaha, power amps from Denon, Marantz and Rotel before I settled on these B&K's. In fact, I'm not really sure why I bought the Emo amps - the B&K's work and sound great. I guess I just wanted to change up after all these years. Sonically, I would put them against many other brands, and I'm no B&K fan boy. Would I buy a Ref 70? No, there have been issues with B&K's pre/pros so I would stay away. I've not read in any forum that they were junk - you're the first one I've heard that from.

And what is the purpose of your comment? If the B&K's sound bad, than the Emo's are no better or perhaps worse? What is your assertion? Nothing good to say?

And no, I bought them at Audiolink in Bedford, Tweeter never had any knowledgeable salespeople - That's why they failed............

[ntrain42]

Jan 24, 2010 11:12:50 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

Jan 24, 2010 10:49:59 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

I dont know if Id call B&K a good amp, they were notorious for QC issues, the few years I sold em back in the mid 90's we had a defective return rate of almost 60%, and thats no joke or exagerration either. Im surprised your B&K unit is still operational, they dont like to be driven hard, and their secondary caps are known to leak and cold soldier joints are issues that have plagued em for years..........I honestly would tell you to sell it while its still fully functional......LOL!

Lemme guess? You got it from Tweeter? Manchester or Nashua store? I could have sold you that amp, LOL!

Well I've got two, they are fifteen years old, they sound great. They have never been problematic, ever. As far as sound quality, I went through a lot of other gear, various receivers from Denon and Yamaha, power amps from Denon, Marantz and Rotel before I settled on these B&K's. In fact, I'm not really sure why I bought the Emo amps - the B&K's work and sound great. I guess I just wanted to change up after all these years. Sonically, I would put them against many other brands, and I'm no B&K fan boy. Would I buy a Ref 70? No, there have been issues with B&K's pre/pros so I would stay away. I've not read in any forum that they were junk - you're the first one I've heard that from.

And what is the purpose of your comment? If the B&K's sound bad, than the Emo's are no better or perhaps worse? What is your assertion? Nothing good to say?

And no, I bought them at Audiolink in Bedford, Tweeter never had any knowledgeable salespeople - That's why they failed............

LOL! And where is "Audiolink" today? LOL, GONE as well, long before tweeter. Honestly they weren't much better in many regards. One of my closest friends worked for them, lots of stories could be told of that place, just like tweeter, why I left my dept and went to work for Ensemble Music Corp for the next 10 years doing custom design and install work. Even an upscale place like Ensemble has some unique insider stories that can be told. That way for all places.

Anyway, back to the post. I just made a comment that I am surprised and shocked that your B&K is still operational. I assume your driving an easy load with them.

That XPA-2 with an easy load like a nominal 8ohm or 6ohm speaker is only going to have about 1db more of headroom over that B&K. But if your driving true 4ohm speakers you will hear a considerable difference. The XPA-2 is able to fully double down its power into 4 ohms and has significantly less odd order harmonic distortion as well. That B&K will be cooking eggs with lower impedance speakers in comparison and will not last very long. Again I was surprised your B&K is still operational. The parts quality and QC in general are not very high compared to that XPA-2. And this is coming from someone who has extensive experience with both products(but no bias on either product as I dont own either one personally). I drive my main music speakers with Class A / AB Aragon Palladium monoblocks and some older Bryston 7B's as well.

[Porscheguy]

Jan 24, 2010 11:38:51 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Jan 24, 2010 11:12:50 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

Well I've got two, they are fifteen years old, they sound great. They have never been problematic, ever. As far as sound quality, I went through a lot of other gear, various receivers from Denon and Yamaha, power amps from Denon, Marantz and Rotel before I settled on these B&K's. In fact, I'm not really sure why I bought the Emo amps - the B&K's work and sound great. I guess I just wanted to change up after all these years. Sonically, I would put them against many other brands, and I'm no B&K fan boy. Would I buy a Ref 70? No, there have been issues with B&K's pre/pros so I would stay away. I've not read in any forum that they were junk - you're the first one I've heard that from.

And what is the purpose of your comment? If the B&K's sound bad, than the Emo's are no better or perhaps worse? What is your assertion? Nothing good to say?

And no, I bought them at Audiolink in Bedford, Tweeter never had any knowledgeable salespeople - That's why they failed............

LOL! And where is "Audiolink" today? LOL, GONE as well, long before tweeter. Honestly they weren't much better in many regards. One of my closest friends worked for them, lots of stories could be told of that place, just like tweeter, why I left my dept and went to work for Ensemble Music Corp for the next 10 years doing custom design and install work. Even an upscale place like Ensemble has some unique insider stories that can be told. That way for all places.

Anyway, back to the post. I just made a comment that I am surprised and shocked that your B&K is still operational. I assume your driving an easy load with them.

That XPA-2 with an easy load like a nominal 8ohm or 6ohm speaker is only going to have about 1db more of headroom over that B&K. But if your driving true 4ohm speakers you will hear a considerable difference. The XPA-2 is able to fully double down its power into 4 ohms and has significantly less odd order harmonic distortion as well. That B&K will be cooking eggs with lower impedance speakers in comparison and will not last very long. Again I was surprised your B&K is still operational. The parts quality and QC in general are not very high compared to that XPA-2. And this is coming from someone who has extensive experience with both products(but no bias on either product as I dont own either one personally). I drive my main music speakers with Class A / AB Aragon Palladium monoblocks and some older Bryston 7B's as well.

You don't even own any Emotiva gear. Why are you even here? Your assertions are ridiculous, your facts are miss stated, and please, I don't need a lesson on electronics. You still have not even commented on the subject matter of my post. Are you just here to ridicule B&K?

Audiolink closed because the really rich woman that owned it and the building it was in decided to sell the name and close it after her brother died. She was not interested in running it alone. Thats why it is gone.

I have never done this in a forum before, but you sir, are a moron.

[ntrain42]

Jan 24, 2010 11:57:45 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

Jan 24, 2010 11:38:51 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

LOL! And where is "Audiolink" today? LOL, GONE as well, long before tweeter. Honestly they weren't much better in many regards. One of my closest friends worked for them, lots of stories could be told of that place, just like tweeter, why I left my dept and went to work for Ensemble Music Corp for the next 10 years doing custom design and install work. Even an upscale place like Ensemble has some unique insider stories that can be told. That way for all places.

Anyway, back to the post. I just made a comment that I am surprised and shocked that your B&K is still operational. I assume your driving an easy load with them.

That XPA-2 with an easy load like a nominal 8ohm or 6ohm speaker is only going to have about 1db more of headroom over that B&K. But if your driving true 4ohm speakers you will hear a considerable difference. The XPA-2 is able to fully double down its power into 4 ohms and has significantly less odd order harmonic distortion as well. That B&K will be cooking eggs with lower impedance speakers in comparison and will not last very long. Again I was surprised your B&K is still operational. The parts quality and QC in general are not very high compared to that XPA-2. And this is coming from someone who has extensive experience with both products(but no bias on either product as I dont own either one personally). I drive my main music speakers with Class A / AB Aragon Palladium monoblocks and some older Bryston 7B's as well.

You don't even own any Emotiva gear. Why are you even here? Your assertions are ridiculous, your facts are miss stated, and please, I don't need a lesson on electronics. You still have not even commented on the subject matter of my post. Are you just here to ridicule B&K?

Audiolink closed because the really rich woman that owned it and the building it was in, decided to sell the name and close it after her brother died - as she was not interested in running it alone. Thats why it is gone.

I have never done this in a forum before, but you sir, are a moron.

Actually audiolink was also in some serious financial trouble and in the red for a number of years. It was under alot of question marks well before one of the family members died.

Back to the post, I made a suggestion on what you should do with that B&K. I know the parts content well on the internals of those amps. And I know the issues they had. From experience I was making a suggestion.....so why view it as an attack? Seriously. And if you think my assertions are rediculous and my facts are misstated then why dont you give some examples backed up with facts. Moron? Please, prove anything I stated here is less than a fact.

Ill state some facts on my end though.



A. Soundstage and imaging technically is based mostly on your speakers driver and xover quality and how tight the +/- difference is between the L and R speakers at all their operating frequencies. The voicing of the amp is probably different, but this is due to the amps output at varying impedance loads throughout the speakers operating range.

B. Timbre/SQ again many times a more forward sounding amp is due to its ability to output higher wattages at lower impedance loads. The XPA-2 will double down its power to 4 ohms, so if your speakers(example an 8ohm nominal rated speaker)at a specific frequency dip to below 8 ohms into the 4-5ohm range then at said specific frequency one amp will give a bump in the frequency response to the speakers in a subtle way. Thats one reason why the XPA-2 may have more midbass response and voiced more forward vs. your B&K which cannot double its power down when the impedance of a speaker dips at a certain frequency. In all honesty though you can make both amps sound identical with a laptop, decent fullband mic and some RTA software and of course a preprocessor with a decent EQ function.

C. Tighter midbass........see above.

D. A. You state more headroom. 250-300 watts vs 200 watts...........XPA-2 has about 1db more rms headroom at an 8ohms nominal load, with a speaker that has a naturally varying impedance curve its probably more like 1-4db depending on the specific frequency and impedance dip of the speaker used..............check

E. S/N should be good and inaudible on any competent designed amp.

Questions on brightness, more forward sound? After initial breakin of about 100 hours, I would grab an RTA of some type and A/B your amps, you will see they have a slightly differing response to a reactive varying impedance load from your speakers, but a watt is a watt and both amps can be made to sound 100% identical when EQ'd correctly for a natural flat in room response.

Such a moron I am!

[Porscheguy]

Jan 24, 2010 12:41:18 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Jan 24, 2010 11:57:45 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

You don't even own any Emotiva gear. Why are you even here? Your assertions are ridiculous, your facts are miss stated, and please, I don't need a lesson on electronics. You still have not even commented on the subject matter of my post. Are you just here to ridicule B&K?

Audiolink closed because the really rich woman that owned it and the building it was in, decided to sell the name and close it after her brother died - as she was not interested in running it alone. Thats why it is gone.

I have never done this in a forum before, but you sir, are a moron.

Actually audiolink was also in some serious financial trouble and in the red for a number of years. It was under alot of question marks well before one of the family members died.

Back to the post, I made a suggestion on what you should do with that B&K. I know the parts content well on the internals of those amps. And I know the issues they had. From experience I was making a suggestion.....so why view it as an attack? Seriously. And if you think my assertions are rediculous and my facts are misstated then why dont you give some examples backed up with facts. Moron? Please, prove anything I stated here is less than a fact.

My post describes my interpretation of the sonic characters of the XPA-2/ERC-1, loosely comparing it to the B&K which had been my main stereo amp for many years. You have still made no comment as to the sonic signature of the XPA-2 because you have no point of reference. For that matter you probably know very little about B&K amps seeing that you have never owned one of those as well. Oh, thats right, you sold them at a store back 15 years ago. That certainly qualifies you comment on their sonic signature even though you have never owned either one. What?

You made a suggestion as what to do with the B&K? What? You just blathered some specious pablum about 4 ohm loads blah blah. Well, I have 8 ohm speakers so even if I cared about your comment (I don't) it matters little. 100 hours of burn in? Most people around here say they sound great right out of the box (and I never said the XPA-2 sounded bad). I don't want to AB my amps, I was just making some very informal cmments of an hour of casual listening.

The TX 4430 is a THX certified power amp that makes 200 watts at 8 ohms and 325 watts @ 4 ohms. If you knew anything about anything, you would know that THX certification is an expensive and exacting process that is difficult at best to comply to.

You say Emotiva uses better parts than B&K? They might, but how do you know? Have you taken apart an Emo amp? No, and I seriously doubt as a "sales guy" you ever took apart a B&K amp to inspect the parts quality.... Are you a electrical engineer? No, you are "just" a "sales guy"..... What a crock....

Facts you say? I want some empirical proof from you that B&K amps have 60% failure rate. I'm in the manufacturing business and I can assure you no company could ever survive with 60% of their products failing. B&K has been around for a long time and still operates today.

Come on, you want to impugn the reputation of a manufacturer in a public forum, you had better have some facts to back it up. What crap.

None of your comments are on topic given the subject matter.... You're just hating on B&K no more, no less.

[Porscheguy]

Jan 24, 2010 12:41:18 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Jan 24, 2010 11:57:45 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

You don't even own any Emotiva gear. Why are you even here? Your assertions are ridiculous, your facts are miss stated, and please, I don't need a lesson on electronics. You still have not even commented on the subject matter of my post. Are you just here to ridicule B&K?

Audiolink closed because the really rich woman that owned it and the building it was in, decided to sell the name and close it after her brother died - as she was not interested in running it alone. Thats why it is gone.

I have never done this in a forum before, but you sir, are a moron.

Actually audiolink was also in some serious financial trouble and in the red for a number of years. It was under alot of question marks well before one of the family members died.

Back to the post, I made a suggestion on what you should do with that B&K. I know the parts content well on the internals of those amps. And I know the issues they had. From experience I was making a suggestion.....so why view it as an attack? Seriously. And if you think my assertions are rediculous and my facts are misstated then why dont you give some examples backed up with facts. Moron? Please, prove anything I stated here is less than a fact.

Ill state some facts on my end though.



A. Soundstage and imaging technically is based mostly on your speakers driver and xover quality and how tight the +/- difference is between the L and R speakers at all their operating frequencies. The voicing of the amp is probably different, but this is due to the amps output at varying impedance loads throughout the speakers operating range.

B. Timbre/SQ again many times a more forward sounding amp is due to its ability to output higher wattages at lower impedance loads. The XPA-2 will double down its power to 4 ohms, so if your speakers(example an 8ohm nominal rated speaker)at a specific frequency dip to below 8 ohms into the 4-5ohm range then at said specific frequency one amp will give a bump in the frequency response to the speakers in a subtle way. Thats one reason why the XPA-2 may have more midbass response and voiced more forward vs. your B&K which cannot double its power down when the impedance of a speaker dips at a certain frequency. In all honesty though you can make both amps sound identical with a laptop, decent fullband mic and some RTA software and of course a preprocessor with a decent EQ function.

C. Tighter midbass........see above.

D. A. You state more headroom. 250-300 watts vs 200 watts...........XPA-2 has about 1db more rms headroom at an 8ohms nominal load, with a speaker that has a naturally varying impedance curve its probably more like 1-4db depending on the specific frequency and impedance dip of the speaker used..............check

E. S/N should be good and inaudible on any competent designed amp.

Questions on brightness, more forward sound? After initial breakin of about 100 hours, I would grab an RTA of some type and A/B your amps, you will see they have a slightly differing response to a reactive varying impedance load from your speakers, but a watt is a watt and both amps can be made to sound 100% identical when EQ'd correctly for a natural flat in room response.

Such a moron I am!

So you know what soundstage, imaging and headroom mean? Wow, trying to show off your HIFi acumen?! Thanks for telling me something that obviously I know quite well seeing that I wrote it...

[ntrain42]

Jan 24, 2010 13:14:52 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

Jan 24, 2010 12:41:18 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Actually audiolink was also in some serious financial trouble and in the red for a number of years. It was under alot of question marks well before one of the family members died.

Back to the post, I made a suggestion on what you should do with that B&K. I know the parts content well on the internals of those amps. And I know the issues they had. From experience I was making a suggestion.....so why view it as an attack? Seriously. And if you think my assertions are rediculous and my facts are misstated then why dont you give some examples backed up with facts. Moron? Please, prove anything I stated here is less than a fact.

My post describes my interpretation of the sonic characters of the XPA-2/ERC-1, loosely comparing it to the B&K which had been my main stereo amp for many years. You have still made no comment as to the sonic signature of the XPA-2 because you have no point of reference. For that matter you probably know very little about B&K amps seeing that you have never owned one of those as well. Oh, thats right, you sold them at a store back 15 years ago. That certainly qualifies you comment on their sonic signature even though you have never owned either one. What?

You made a suggestion as what to do with the B&K? What? You just blathered some specious pablum about 4 ohm loads blah blah. Well, I have 8 ohm speakers so even if I cared about your comment (I don't) it matters little. 100 hours of burn in? Most people around here say they sound great right out of the box (and I never said the XPA-2 sounded bad). I don't want to AB my amps, I was just making some very informal cmments of an hour of casual listening.

The TX 4430 is a THX certified power amp that makes 200 watts at 8 ohms and 325 watts @ 4 ohms. If you knew anything about anything, you would know that THX certification is an expensive and exacting process that is difficult at best to comply to.

You say Emotiva uses better parts than B&K? They might, but how do you know? Have you taken apart an Emo amp? No, and I seriously doubt as a "sales guy" you ever took apart a B&K amp to inspect the parts quality.... Are you a electrical engineer? No, you are "just" a "sales guy"..... What a crock....

Facts you say? I want some empirical proof from you that B&K amps have 60% failure rate. I'm in the manufacturing business and I can assure you no company could ever survive with 60% of their products failing. B&K has been around for a long time and still operates today.

Come on, you want to impugn the reputation of a manufacturer in a public forum, you had better have some facts to back it up. What crap.

None of your comments are on topic given the subject matter.... You're just hating on B&K no more, no less.

Oh yes, I am discounting B&K without question. When more than half the B&K products you sell come back to be RMA'd you start to dislike a product and see alot of things a typical consumer like you wouldn't be subjected to. B&K has always been known as a headache product, as they were relatively fragile not liking abuse, and had alot of QC issues. For example back in 97' I was done doing a remodeling of the Burlington Mass. Tweeter store's high end room which featured products from Sonus Faber, Proceed, B&K, some Pioneer Elite products, Adcom, Vienna Acoustics and a few others. One of the displays featured a 2 channel B&K amp with an Adcom CD player and Preamp(GCD and GFP 750's I believe). 3 of the B&K amps that were installed were DOA! The 4th finally worked, but in less than 6 months time that B&K amp was replaced twice more. Thats just a starter. Many other stores had the same issue, many of the B&K amplifier products sold to customers were coming back fried. Tweeter ended up cutting ties with B&K due to QC issues that could not be resolved. Audiolink also had that problem. So did many other independant stores. My friend Bob who worked at Audiolink for 3 years would be glad to tell you the issues they had overall. He lives in Bedford. And maybe if you cut the silly childish name calling out he would love to give you his first hand experience on them.

As for their SQ? Nothing wrong with them. Very predictable overall, had a tendancy to get a bit harsh with odd order harmonics when driven near its rms limit. Many people like myself are very sensitive to odd order harmonics, some are not. B&K, Parasound,Yamaha,Pioneer Elite, and a few others not named are known to have amplifier products that have tested high odd order harmonic distortion levels as you near clipping of the signal.

[ntrain42]

Jan 24, 2010 13:14:52 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

The TX 4430 is a THX certified power amp that makes 200 watts at 8 ohms and 325 watts @ 4 ohms. If you knew anything about anything, you would know that THX certification is an expensive and exacting process that is difficult at best to comply to.

This is where your going to lose some credibility. THX certification is basically nothing more than a licensing/marketing fee today. It is far from an expensive process. It is a marketing tool used to help promote a product. Companies pay a fee to have the sticker slapped on. The sticker helps to promote and sell products. Its a proven fact that the most of the best equipment out there doesn't waste time or money having a THX logo affixed to it. There is no THX logo on any of the Emotiva gear you just bought. You think that makes it any less of a product? LOL! How about companies like Pass Labs,Mark Levinson,Cary, Bryston etc.........do you think these high end audio companies are making products that will far surpass anything you will see with a THX logo? Someday you will learn that..................I think.

Next time your at Best Buy or Walmart, go to the cheap A/V sections and see how many countless products(tv's recievers,speakers,cables etc) have that "THX" logo affixed to em. Most of it is utter junk.........

[Porscheguy]

So you think the same process and cost to certify a 3$ cable is the same as a power amp? I know what THX certification is and why people want that logo on their electronics. I also know that many don't (mostly smaller companies) because their volumes are low and it's financially hard to justify. I also know that many of todays amps and receivers would easily (and do) meet that benchmark but again choose not to have the certification because of the money aspect. The big boys, D&M holdings, Pioneer and Yamaha proudly pony up the money to display that logo. Seeing that more or less own the market between them they must know something about success. Levinson, Krell, Theta, Bryston you pick it. They would love to have that logo if they could afford it.

One of the reasons Emotiva is balking at building a bluray player is all the licensing fees and certifications. Very expensive.

You will never get me to believe that B&K has a 60% product failure rate. They wouldn't last a year. Your pontificating and your doing it on purpose. Through Bob at Audiolink I met at least 5-6 guys that have B&K stuff and they all loved it.

Not to mention Vince from the Manchester Tweeter whose house was a B&K shrine.

And those damn odd order harmonics, yup they ruin everyones listening experience. Got some more fancy words and explanations? Gee, what will you teach me next, big audio guy?

Thank god you are here..........

[ntrain42]

Jan 24, 2010 14:32:51 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

So you think the same process and cost to certify a 3$ cable is the same as a power amp? I know what THX certification is and why people want that logo on their electronics. I also know that many don't (mostly smaller companies) because their volumes are low and it's financially hard to justify. I also know that many of todays amps and receivers would easily (and do) meet that benchmark but again choose not to have the certification because of the money aspect. The big boys, D&M holdings, Pioneer and Yamaha proudly pony up the money to display that logo. Seeing that more or less own the market between them they must know something about success. Levinson, Krell, Theta, Bryston you pick it. They would love to have that logo if they could afford it.

One of the reasons Emotiva is balking at building a bluray player is all the licensing fees and certifications. Very expensive.

You will never get me to believe that B&K has a 60% product failure rate. They wouldn't last a year. Your pontificating and your doing it on purpose. Through Bob at Audiolink I met at least 5-6 guys that have B&K stuff and they all loved it.

Not to mention Vince from the Manchester Tweeter whose house was a B&K shrine.

And those damn odd order harmonics, yup they ruin everyones listening experience. Got some more fancy words and explanations? Gee, what will you teach me next, big audio guy?

Thank god you are here..........

To put it simple B&K has had ALOT of financial difficulties through the years. I am actually very surprised they havent gone under yet.

Do you know what an odd order harmonic is or the effects on ears? Have you seen any bench tests done on any B&K amp product. Toss up a link............they all have very common test results. Some people are very sensitive to these distortions in the upper frequencies and it results in headaches to many.

As for THX logos, of course alot of the larger companies have em. If Pioneer and Onkyo slap on the logo, but a competing company like Yamaha or Sony does not.........it leaves a customer with question marks as to what the difference is. He sees "THX Ultra2" on one box prominetly displayed, but not on another. He may have questions. He may think one product is built better than another. You think that is the case?

Lets take your B&K amp. Its gone through a rigorous and strenuous, and EXPENSIVE certification process as you state to get its licensing logo.

OK, so tell me, what tests did it need to pass? What garentees in quality do you have over another product without the logo? I'd like to know what an $1800 dollar amp has over a $700 amp. In fact Id like to know how a THX certified 4430 3x200 amp for $1800 is a better choice to buy over say an Emotiva XPA-3 for $600 basically a third of its price. What does that 4430 get me? What does the THX certification garentee to me that the non THX certified XPA-3 can't? What does $1200 more spent with a THX logo affixed get me for my dollar?

And someone tell me how THX certifies a cable? LOL! Does every single cable with a THX logo get physically checked by a Creative Labs employee? LOL!

[Porscheguy]

Jan 24, 2010 15:13:31 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Jan 24, 2010 14:32:51 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

So you think the same process and cost to certify a 3$ cable is the same as a power amp? I know what THX certification is and why people want that logo on their electronics. I also know that many don't (mostly smaller companies) because their volumes are low and it's financially hard to justify. I also know that many of todays amps and receivers would easily (and do) meet that benchmark but again choose not to have the certification because of the money aspect. The big boys, D&M holdings, Pioneer and Yamaha proudly pony up the money to display that logo. Seeing that more or less own the market between them they must know something about success. Levinson, Krell, Theta, Bryston you pick it. They would love to have that logo if they could afford it.

One of the reasons Emotiva is balking at building a bluray player is all the licensing fees and certifications. Very expensive.

You will never get me to believe that B&K has a 60% product failure rate. They wouldn't last a year. Your pontificating and your doing it on purpose. Through Bob at Audiolink I met at least 5-6 guys that have B&K stuff and they all loved it.

Not to mention Vince from the Manchester Tweeter whose house was a B&K shrine.

And those damn odd order harmonics, yup they ruin everyones listening experience. Got some more fancy words and explanations? Gee, what will you teach me next, big audio guy?

Thank god you are here..........

To put it simple B&K has had ALOT of financial difficulties through the years. I am actually very surprised they havent gone under yet.

Do you know what an odd order harmonic is or the effects on ears? Have you seen any bench tests done on any B&K amp product. Toss up a link............they all have very common test results. Some people are very sensitive to these distortions in the upper frequencies and it results in headaches to many.

As for THX logos, of course alot of the larger companies have em. If Pioneer and Onkyo slap on the logo, but a competing company like Yamaha or Sony does not.........it leaves a customer with question marks as to what the difference is. He sees "THX Ultra2" on one box prominetly displayed, but not on another. He may have questions. He may think one product is built better than another. You think that is the case?

Lets take your B&K amp. Its gone through a rigorous and strenuous, and EXPENSIVE certification process as you state to get its licensing logo.

OK, so tell me, what tests did it need to pass? What garentees in quality do you have over another product without the logo? I'd like to know what an $1800 dollar amp has over a $700 amp. In fact Id like to know how a THX certified 4430 3x200 amp for $1800 is a better choice to buy over say an Emotiva XPA-3 for $600 basically a third of its price. What does that 4430 get me? What does the THX certification garentee to me that the non THX certified XPA-3 can't? What does $1200 more spent with a THX logo affixed get me for my dollar?

And someone tell me how THX certifies a cable? LOL! Does every single cable with a THX logo get physically checked by a Creative Labs employee? LOL!

The same way that Lexicon has $3000.00 THX certified (Oppo BDP 83 clone) Bluray player.

Even though I know of no benchmarks to certify Bluray players for THX

And what do get more from B&K for your $1800.00? Nothin'. American labor costs. Just like a $25,000 Levinson amp. When you only sell a few you need to make a lot more.........

The cost to return ratio in high end in audio is a bell curve. And it does not benefit the consumer.

[artiek]

Don't you have something else you should be doing nt? You're the most abrasive poster... Where's the ignore button when you need it???

[strindl]

Jan 24, 2010 16:30:09 GMT -5 @artiek said:

Don't you have something else you should be doing nt? You're the most abrasive poster... Where's the ignore button when you need it???

+1

[wowfactor]

+2

[Porscheguy]

Finally, the cavalry has arrived......

[SticknStones]

Hey guys, there is no doubt that you have some passion here and good knowledge in general but your kind of stuck in the point counter-point dilemma. I had that happen to me once and could not figure how to save face, move on and still feel like a decent outcome had been derived.

In this case I think you should make peace as everyone's points have been very well made. ;D

[strindl]

In this case I think you should make peace as everyone's points have been very well made. ;D

That's not possible with Ntrain. he is a real piece of work. He's also a fake...he represents himself to be something he never was.

[Porscheguy]

I really appreciate some of these comments. I've always tried to be easy going and polite in these forums, but this guy ntrain really rubbed me the wrong way. I have had B&K amps for a long time and they have never, ever been a problem. Perhaps I'm no audiophile, but through my Snells I thought they were smooth and articulate with enough punch to raise the roof if I wanted to. Over the years I've read a dozen or more reviews of B&K amps and almost universally they were praised for their sound, build and "bang for the buck".

That's why I kind of lost it with this guy. I hope its the last time......

Ec