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Post by wizardofoz on Feb 24, 2010 1:23:55 GMT -5
Oddly the Sherbourn 7020A has the exact same specs as the UMC-1...this has been known for some time in this forum.... Did anyone notice that the size is also the same as the UMC-1 but the 7020A is clearly at least 1.5-2" taller in the pictures due to the XLR outputs it has...oh and in their spec's they don't even mention the XLR outputs., only for the Sub!!!  Did they just copy the UMC-1 spec's direct ... I wonder. Is there any copyright infringement? Maybe its a halfway to XMC clone? The maybe are having software bugs too...anyone ever auditioned one... never seen any agent here in Asia but maybe in the US they have. |
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Post by johnnyg on Feb 24, 2010 1:51:08 GMT -5
Compare the photo on the Sherbourn web site with the cover off to the ones on the UMC-1 product page. Look closely at the layout of the boards. I think you will find it revealing.
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jordo
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 176
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Post by jordo on Feb 24, 2010 1:56:24 GMT -5
So whats the deal? Emo builds 'em and sell the plans to other manufacturers or vice versa?
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Post by bigred7078 on Feb 24, 2010 2:13:16 GMT -5
this is a pretty well known thing guys. Big Dan has roots in building gear for other companies...and these roots still continue on today. Its all to your advantage  Older Emotiva processors were basically Sunfires (except LMC-1...not sure what it was). They will never come right out and say it, but its pretty obvious when you compare specs and board layouts. They always add their own little spin on the product though. This is not an uncommon practice though. It happens quite a bit  |
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Post by teedub21 on Feb 24, 2010 2:14:04 GMT -5
Or they are both buying from the same manufacturer and putting their own little touches on them.
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Post by bigred7078 on Feb 24, 2010 2:15:52 GMT -5
Or they are both buying from the same manufacturer and putting their own little touches on them. I would say its a combination of both practices. |
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Post by billmac on Feb 24, 2010 7:28:11 GMT -5
It should be interesting to see the initial user reviews of the 7020A. I'm curious to see if the UMC-1 and 7020A have a similar FW and if some of the issues with the UMC-1 are also found on the 7020A. I think the best buy between these two is quite obvious . I would think Sherbourn would try to keep the word E-M-O-T-I-V-A away from all those showing interest in the 7020A ;D. Bill |
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Post by billmac on Feb 24, 2010 7:28:55 GMT -5
It should be interesting to see the initial user reviews of the 7020A. I'm curious to see if the UMC-1 and 7020A have a similar FW and if some of the issues with the UMC-1 are also found on the 7020A. I think the best buy between these two is quite obvious . I would think Sherbourn would try to keep the word E-M-O-T-I-V-A away from all those showing interest in the 7020A ;D. Bill |
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Post by RuggSkins on Feb 24, 2010 10:36:01 GMT -5
It is my understanding that Dan ownes Jade Design Group. AKA Emotiva. For many years they have been helping in the design, and manufacturing of AV electronics products. It is my understanding that the relationship, and perhaps ownership of the Manufacturing plant in China belongs to Jade Design. Many electronics companies are intersted in improving margins by having thier electronics manufactured in China... but do not have the relationship or ownership of a Chinese manufacturing company... hence they negotiate with Jade Design to supply this capability.
It is also about economy of scale... If Jade Design manufactures for 10 Electronics companies... thus have to buy components for 10 electronics companies... do you think they will be able to secure better volume pricing?
NRE - Non Recurring Engineering - refers to the one-time cost of researching, developing, designing, and testing a new product. When budgeting for a project, NRE must be considered in order to analyze if a new product will be profitable. Even though a company will pay for NRE on a project only once, NRE can be considerably high and the product will have to sell well enough to produce a return on the initial investment. NRE is unlike production costs, which must be paid continually in order to maintain production of a product.
In a project-type company, large parts (possibly all) of the project represent NRE. In this case the NRE costs are likely be included in the first project's costs. If the company cannot recover these costs, it will have to consider funding part of these from reserves (possibly make a project loss) in the hope that the investment can be recovered from additional profit on future projects.
Example
Imagine that you are running a bicycle company. Company B, a competitor, is selling bicycles of lighter weight than yours. You decided that the best way for your company to compete is to create even lighter bicycles. So you hire some engineers to design lighter bicycles for you. You pay their hourly wages, you pay for the materials they need to build prototypes, and you pay for any equipment they may need to accomplish this task. Eventually they finish the design of the new bicycle. Then, you may need to build new machines to fabricate bicycles according to your new design. After all of that your new bicycle will go into production. The money that you paid for the engineer's wages, the testing equipment, and building the new machines is the NRE because you no longer need to pay those costs now that the bicycle has entered production. Now you have to keep production costs low enough so that you can recover the NRE and profit from the sales of your bicycles that have the new design.
... One wonders why the Emotiva products look like others that Jade Design manufactures? Simple - NRE.
One wonders why Emotiva products are only sold online? Simple... non-compete clauses with the companies that sell the same product in the retail space under a different brand. Since Emotiva doesn't work in that space, they don't have to pay Dealer commissions.
In conclusion:
1) Manufactured in China
2) NRE
3) Economy of scale
4) Direct Web Marketing only (No Dealer Commissions)
Thus... Emotiva can pass the design enhancement and cost savings on to us... the loyal Emotivans!!!
**NOTE** The above data is only derived in my head (my little Walter Mitty world). I have no concrete proof of what I wrote above is true.
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Post by bazonix on Feb 24, 2010 10:51:09 GMT -5
It should be interesting to see the initial user reviews of the 7020A. I'm curious to see if the UMC-1 and 7020A have a similar FW and if some of the issues with the UMC-1 are also found on the 7020A.. Bill id love to know too |
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Post by jmilton on Feb 24, 2010 11:24:09 GMT -5
It is my understanding that Dan ownes Jade Design Group. AKA Emotiva. For many years they have been helping in the design, and manufacturing of AV electronics products. It is my understanding that the relationship, and perhaps ownership of the Manufacturing plant in China belongs to Jade Design. Many electronics companies are intersted in improving margins by having thier electronics manufactured in China... but do not have the relationship or ownership of a Chinese manufacturing company... hence they negotiate with Jade Design to supply this capability. It is also about economy of scale... If Jade Design manufactures for 10 Electronics companies... thus have to buy components for 10 electronics companies... do you think they will be able to secure better volume pricing? NRE - Non Recurring Engineering - refers to the one-time cost of researching, developing, designing, and testing a new product. When budgeting for a project, NRE must be considered in order to analyze if a new product will be profitable. Even though a company will pay for NRE on a project only once, NRE can be considerably high and the product will have to sell well enough to produce a return on the initial investment. NRE is unlike production costs, which must be paid continually in order to maintain production of a product. In a project-type company, large parts (possibly all) of the project represent NRE. In this case the NRE costs are likely be included in the first project's costs. If the company cannot recover these costs, it will have to consider funding part of these from reserves (possibly make a project loss) in the hope that the investment can be recovered from additional profit on future projects. Example Imagine that you are running a bicycle company. Company B, a competitor, is selling bicycles of lighter weight than yours. You decided that the best way for your company to compete is to create even lighter bicycles. So you hire some engineers to design lighter bicycles for you. You pay their hourly wages, you pay for the materials they need to build prototypes, and you pay for any equipment they may need to accomplish this task. Eventually they finish the design of the new bicycle. Then, you may need to build new machines to fabricate bicycles according to your new design. After all of that your new bicycle will go into production. The money that you paid for the engineer's wages, the testing equipment, and building the new machines is the NRE because you no longer need to pay those costs now that the bicycle has entered production. Now you have to keep production costs low enough so that you can recover the NRE and profit from the sales of your bicycles that have the new design. ... One wonders why the Emotiva products look like others that Jade Design manufactures? Simple - NRE. One wonders why Emotiva products are only sold online? Simple... non-compete clauses with the companies that sell the same product in the retail space under a different brand. Since Emotiva doesn't work in that space, they don't have to pay Dealer commissions. In conclusion: 1) Manufactured in China 2) NRE 3) Economy of scale 4) Direct Web Marketing only (No Dealer Commissions) Thus... Emotiva can pass the design enhancement and cost savings on to us... the loyal Emotivans!!! **NOTE** The above data is only derived in my head (my little Walter Mitty world). I have no concrete proof of what I wrote above is true. Theoretically feasible. |
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Post by gocolts on Feb 24, 2010 12:01:34 GMT -5
It is my understanding that Dan ownes Jade Design Group. AKA Emotiva. For many years they have been helping in the design, and manufacturing of AV electronics products. It is my understanding that the relationship, and perhaps ownership of the Manufacturing plant in China belongs to Jade Design. Many electronics companies are intersted in improving margins by having thier electronics manufactured in China... but do not have the relationship or ownership of a Chinese manufacturing company... hence they negotiate with Jade Design to supply this capability. It is also about economy of scale... If Jade Design manufactures for 10 Electronics companies... thus have to buy components for 10 electronics companies... do you think they will be able to secure better volume pricing? NRE - Non Recurring Engineering - refers to the one-time cost of researching, developing, designing, and testing a new product. When budgeting for a project, NRE must be considered in order to analyze if a new product will be profitable. Even though a company will pay for NRE on a project only once, NRE can be considerably high and the product will have to sell well enough to produce a return on the initial investment. NRE is unlike production costs, which must be paid continually in order to maintain production of a product. In a project-type company, large parts (possibly all) of the project represent NRE. In this case the NRE costs are likely be included in the first project's costs. If the company cannot recover these costs, it will have to consider funding part of these from reserves (possibly make a project loss) in the hope that the investment can be recovered from additional profit on future projects. Example Imagine that you are running a bicycle company. Company B, a competitor, is selling bicycles of lighter weight than yours. You decided that the best way for your company to compete is to create even lighter bicycles. So you hire some engineers to design lighter bicycles for you. You pay their hourly wages, you pay for the materials they need to build prototypes, and you pay for any equipment they may need to accomplish this task. Eventually they finish the design of the new bicycle. Then, you may need to build new machines to fabricate bicycles according to your new design. After all of that your new bicycle will go into production. The money that you paid for the engineer's wages, the testing equipment, and building the new machines is the NRE because you no longer need to pay those costs now that the bicycle has entered production. Now you have to keep production costs low enough so that you can recover the NRE and profit from the sales of your bicycles that have the new design. ... One wonders why the Emotiva products look like others that Jade Design manufactures? Simple - NRE. One wonders why Emotiva products are only sold online? Simple... non-compete clauses with the companies that sell the same product in the retail space under a different brand. Since Emotiva doesn't work in that space, they don't have to pay Dealer commissions. In conclusion: 1) Manufactured in China 2) NRE 3) Economy of scale 4) Direct Web Marketing only (No Dealer Commissions) Thus... Emotiva can pass the design enhancement and cost savings on to us... the loyal Emotivans!!! **NOTE** The above data is only derived in my head (my little Walter Mitty world). I have no concrete proof of what I wrote above is true. Great post. I'd love for Emo to comment on this, but my guess is they don't want to open that can of worms...or can't.... |
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Post by snodog on Feb 24, 2010 18:47:15 GMT -5
It would really piss me off if I paid 2000 for brand X only to find out the exact same thing was on the market for nearly a third of the price and with a five year warranty.
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hemster
Global Moderator 
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,952
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Post by hemster on Feb 24, 2010 20:16:39 GMT -5
It would really piss me off if I paid 2000 for brand X only to find out the exact same thing was on the market for nearly a third of the price and with a five year warranty. In that case I suggest you do NOT look into buying a certain Bluray player from Lexicon... retails for around $3500 (with a $3000 markup!) ;D ;D "Badge Engineering" is a way of life today.. |
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Post by raylock on Feb 24, 2010 20:56:51 GMT -5
It would really piss me off if I paid 2000 for brand X only to find out the exact same thing was on the market for nearly a third of the price and with a five year warranty. In that case I suggest you do NOT look into buying a certain Bluray player from Lexicon... retails for around $3500 (with a $3000 markup!) ;D ;D "Badge Engineering" is a way of life today.. What is the cheaper brand? |
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hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,952
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Post by hemster on Feb 24, 2010 21:11:35 GMT -5
In that case I suggest you do NOT look into buying a certain Bluray player from Lexicon... retails for around $3500 (with a $3000 markup!) ;D ;D "Badge Engineering" is a way of life today.. What is the cheaper brand? With the Lexicon, you get the "cheaper brand" in its entirity... enclosed in a shiny new box labeled "Lexicon"... Maybe it should really be called "Lest-u-con"? |
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Post by canadianbacon on Feb 25, 2010 11:06:53 GMT -5
It would really piss me off if I paid 2000 for brand X only to find out the exact same thing was on the market for nearly a third of the price and with a five year warranty. Guess that's why it "pays to shop around" The OPPO / Lexicon is a perfect example. I'm guessing the Lexicon suckers out there would say theirs sounds WAY better... about $2700 better, to be exact. |
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Post by smackrabbit on Feb 25, 2010 12:06:39 GMT -5
With the Lexicon/Oppo example, what you're really buying for $3,000 is support from the Lexicon dealer network instead of from Oppo, the case is really inconsequential. If you think that having that type of support is worth $3,000 is a value judgment for you to make (virtually no one in the forums of an internet direct company will feel it's worth that price is my guess).
With the Sherbourn, if it is the same base product with balanced outputs and an RS-232 port, then what you're buying again are those two features, and the dealer support. I know there are people out there that you could not convince to hook up their own system and figure it all out, and to them paying the extra money to a dealer for the support installing, configuring, and possibly repairing or upgrading is worth it to them. For people like myself, they love doing it on their own, and can handle it just fine.
So I'm not sure the Lexicon or Sherbourn people will necessarily say that their player or source sounds better, but they might just be happy to have a high quality unit that someone else will install and configure for them and if someone else wants to save some money by setting it up themselves, that's fine with them.
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Post by moodyman on Feb 25, 2010 16:00:32 GMT -5
With the Lexicon/Oppo example, what you're really buying for $3,000 is support from the Lexicon dealer network instead of from Oppo, the case is really inconsequential. LMAO..nice spin..you work for Lexicon?? |
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Post by RuggSkins on Feb 25, 2010 16:42:01 GMT -5
It is my understanding that Dan ownes Jade Design Group. AKA Emotiva. For many years they have been helping in the design, and manufacturing of AV electronics products. It is my understanding that the relationship, and perhaps ownership of the Manufacturing plant in China belongs to Jade Design. Many electronics companies are intersted in improving margins by having thier electronics manufactured in China... but do not have the relationship or ownership of a Chinese manufacturing company... hence they negotiate with Jade Design to supply this capability. It is also about economy of scale... If Jade Design manufactures for 10 Electronics companies... thus have to buy components for 10 electronics companies... do you think they will be able to secure better volume pricing? NRE - Non Recurring Engineering - refers to the one-time cost of researching, developing, designing, and testing a new product. When budgeting for a project, NRE must be considered in order to analyze if a new product will be profitable. Even though a company will pay for NRE on a project only once, NRE can be considerably high and the product will have to sell well enough to produce a return on the initial investment. NRE is unlike production costs, which must be paid continually in order to maintain production of a product. In a project-type company, large parts (possibly all) of the project represent NRE. In this case the NRE costs are likely be included in the first project's costs. If the company cannot recover these costs, it will have to consider funding part of these from reserves (possibly make a project loss) in the hope that the investment can be recovered from additional profit on future projects. Example Imagine that you are running a bicycle company. Company B, a competitor, is selling bicycles of lighter weight than yours. You decided that the best way for your company to compete is to create even lighter bicycles. So you hire some engineers to design lighter bicycles for you. You pay their hourly wages, you pay for the materials they need to build prototypes, and you pay for any equipment they may need to accomplish this task. Eventually they finish the design of the new bicycle. Then, you may need to build new machines to fabricate bicycles according to your new design. After all of that your new bicycle will go into production. The money that you paid for the engineer's wages, the testing equipment, and building the new machines is the NRE because you no longer need to pay those costs now that the bicycle has entered production. Now you have to keep production costs low enough so that you can recover the NRE and profit from the sales of your bicycles that have the new design. ... One wonders why the Emotiva products look like others that Jade Design manufactures? Simple - NRE. One wonders why Emotiva products are only sold online? Simple... non-compete clauses with the companies that sell the same product in the retail space under a different brand. Since Emotiva doesn't work in that space, they don't have to pay Dealer commissions. In conclusion: 1) Manufactured in China 2) NRE 3) Economy of scale 4) Direct Web Marketing only (No Dealer Commissions) Thus... Emotiva can pass the design enhancement and cost savings on to us... the loyal Emotivans!!! **NOTE** The above data is only derived in my head (my little Walter Mitty world). I have no concrete proof of what I wrote above is true. Great post. I'd love for Emo to comment on this, but my guess is they don't want to open that can of worms...or can't.... Its my guess that they can't... not without destoying their primary source of income... OEM manufacturing. If they did... It would probably hurt us Emotivans also. Some things are better left alone. |
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Older Emotiva processors were basically Sunfires (except LMC-1...not sure what it was). They will never come right out and say it, but its pretty obvious when you compare specs and board layouts. They always add their own little spin on the product though. 
