Odyssey Khartago vs. XPA-2

[TJHUB]

I too think Odyssey amps are "better" from a sound standpoint, but that's not everything. What's far more important is system synergy, and Odyssey and Emotiva amps don't synergize with everything. I spent a lot of time swapping gear over the last year only to realize that EVERY piece in the audio chain makes a difference. All the pieces have to work together to deliver the final result. What I also learned is almost ANY piece of gear can be made to work VERY well with the right mix of gear. Of course that last statement has its limitations, but I think you all can understand where I'm coming from.

My Odyssey Stratos Extreme SE monoblocks have brought my setup to what I consider to be perfection. I don't know if any Emo amp could do as well or not. It all comes down to what works for you and your mix of gear.

One comment on "cheap components": My Music Hall DAC is loaded with cheap components. I upgraded to a better tube and Burson opamps and it is now the best DAC I've heard and it seems to work wonderfully with any of the gear I've paired it with. So cheap can't always be bad...

As always...YMMV ;D

[mintzar]

I modified a MH DAC the same way. Putting better parts and coupling caps made a rather large difference. Better parts made it better. Granted, upgraded parts in your source will make a much larger difference than those same parts being put in an amp. Bad in = bad out. So if your source isn't good you shouldn't be upgrading your amp. Relatively speaking.

Compromises are always made at these price points. Emotiva makes great gear, and when I had the XPA-1s I loved them. I found better for my system. And when you find a truly great piece of gear, then it no longer becomes about system synergy. Synergy is important when compromises are being made and when components are colored. When you remove distortion, noise, and color the true color of the music is revealed. And a great component will sound good in every system you put it in.

The Odyssey amps and the Emo amps are great, but it's important to remember that they aren't the best... or if you love them, then you SHOULD forget that there's better so you don't get stuck buying new gear all the time. A good point to make is "This is the best i've heard." I'm both blessed and cursed to have heard better.

At the same time, I am blessed to listen to live, unamplified music twice a week and have been working in the recording business for 6 years. so I know "the best" that a recording can sound. I can tell you there's nothing like the low noise and lack of color of a mic feed. Being able to compare an instrument that's in a dry recording booth to how it sounds through a mic feed is a gift. And it further helps me build an audiophile system that is more accurate... and ultimately more emotional and engaging. So the recommendations I make for people comes from that standpoint. It's amazing how many deep-pocketed audiophiles spend gobs of money on high-end equipment believing it's good without knowing what squirrels are jumping around inside their gear. The numbers don't always equate to accurate musical performance.

[mj]

Sigh. Mintzar, I suppose that we're going to have to agree to disagree.

However, if you could rebut my actual comments vs. what you want them to be, it would be helpful in the future. I never said that parts quality didn't matter, and in fact I _did_ say that quality did matter. Re-read the posts and try again.

I will have to disagree that parts quality don't make a difference. Will a bad design + good parts sound better than a good design with modest parts, most likely not.

Which is exactly what I didn't say. I responded to your quote from Walt that said "amplifiers are just parts", and I said that much more than parts matter.

My argument is that a better component is better because of parts. Implementing those parts is understood.

If you don't know the subject matter, then you might think the above is true. The truth is that implementation quality, just like parts quality, varies widely. And it's a chain - mess up the design, implementation, or parts and you degrade the end result.

Anyway mintzar, we're done. Take your last shot and we'll just let this thread fade away.

- mj

[mintzar]

I don't understand your negativity towards me, MJ. I did not attack anyone, so I don't see how you feel threatened by what I said. The point of these forums is to inspire educational debate and to learn about audio. I was not making any shots at anyone, merely expanding what we are talking about. I never said you did not know what you are talking about and I apologize that you took offense to anything I said. It is easy to misunderstand over text, it would have been easier for you to just correct the misunderstanding than to shoot fire at it.

At any rate, amp design is a chain. To say you can throw a bunch of parts into a box and say it's the best thing since sliced bread is obviously a dumb argument. However, the chain starts from knowing designs and their implementations. Choosing between a Class A and a Class D amp is a huge difference in design. Class D amps in and of themselves can use a switching power supply or a linear power supply. Being able to build a switching power supply that is responsive enough to avoid switching noise and jitter is extremely difficult and requires high quality parts. With a linear supply you have less efficiency, but lower noise. This is all oversimplified obviously. In my experience, a simple design that's implemented properly always sounds better than a complex design.

Paul Weitzel, the designer for TRL, was an engineer for Intel for 20 years designing their circuit boards. He has been working in the recording industry for another x number of years. Audio Research and Conrad Johnson have been trying to copy his circuit designs for 15 years. He builds Class A/B and Class A amplifiers ranging in cost from $5500, to $140,000. I have learned what I know about amplification from him and know first hand that his gear is some of the best I have ever heard regardless of price.

The best amps I've heard have very simple designs with high-quality parts. That is why they cost so much. I would argue that if anyone is going to succeed in selling an amplifier at a competitive price they must have a good design and implementation. What makes one amp better than another is how that design is taken up a notch using good parts.

[mj]

Hi Mintzar:

I think we agree on two things. Firstly, I agree that the forum should be a place to share, and I did not intend to come across as negative. If I did, I apologize. Secondly, I think that we agree that the quality of what we hear is affected by many variables, of which parts quality is just one of them.

I think that people read this forum with a widely varying set of knowledge and skills. The reason I replied in the first place because the quote you had from Walt is simply wrong, and I didn't want anyone to mistakenly think it was fact. In my opinion - which is just an opinion, and not a fact - someone who makes a statement like that is selling, and not speaking as an EE.

If you had just said "Odyssey is much better than Emotiva" I would not have replied. Hey, it'd be your opinion, and you may even be right. Had you replied to my first post with "you're right, Walt was grossly over-simplifying" then we'd be talking about something else now too. It's your refusal to admit that Walt's statement is wrong that I don't agree with. But as I said before, it's ok to agree to disagree.

And to fellow lounge members, if I came across as too strong, my apologies.

- mj

[NorthStar]

Allow me to give my opinion on this.

There is a review of the Odyssey Audio Khartago Stereo Amplifier in the September 2009 issue of The Absolute Sound (Issue 195) by Jonathin Valin. I got this issue at home, I don't know if the review is available on line or not, but I should look for it, and if it is, I'll give it the link.

Now, I don't have my XPA-2 yet, and I never heard the Odyssey Kkartago personally.
So I only go with what I know from well konwn reviewers that I'm familiar with and personal owners (I'm a subscriber to The Absolute Sound for a very long time).

I already read this entire thread (not that big for sure), and I agree with the owners of the Odyssey Khartago stereo amp, it is built using very good quality parts; the $995 version of the $799 one, used a better Plitron transformer, and and extra bit of power-supply capacitance, and superior parts__three options among many (including Nichicon Muse caps, Vishay / Dale resistors, extra WIMA metal-film caps, custom colors) that is offered along with a standard 'twenty-year transferable' warranty.

This Stereo amp (both the $799 & $995 versions), are rated at 115 watts per channel RMS @ 8 ohms. Bandwidth is 2Hz-400Khz. Current is 40 amps (oodles of it). Distortion is <0.04% THD. Damping factor is >500 continuous damping factor. Input impedance is >22kOhms. And it has exceptional slew rate, and weights 30 lbs.

In the review, Jonathan is saying: "Here is an under-$1000 ampthat sounds so much more like a $115,000 amp (Soulution 700 monoblock solid-state amplifiers from Switzerland) than any cheap class AB solid-state amp I know of (and I've heard and reviewed a few) that it is downright astonishing".

Also, the Khartago works into loads as low as 2 ohms, so it mates up with virtually any speaker.

In that review there is also a short interview (chat) with Klauss Bunge of Odyssey Audio, from Indianapolis, Indiana. Bunge has been importing German hi-fi into the United States for better than twenty years.

* [The Khartago is pretty much based on what was then a $4,200 Symphonic Line stereo amp, the Stratos monos on an $8,400 Symphonic Line mono amp. Both designs have been constantly tweaked and tuned, maturing for over two decades. Time is the real secret to their success here.
They hand-populate and hand-solder every single board in their shop. Then they go through a five-part QC process, including substantial listening to each and every product. There are no bad apples or fluctuations in manufacturing-quality or parts-quality there.
All of their face- and back-plates are aircraft-aluminum billet, CNC-machined there in Indy.
Klauss personally hand-brush all the metal. Then they go to the anodizer, also there in Indy, and finally to the laser engraver, also in Indy.

Klauss even talk to every single customer, to see what he/she likes and is looking for, and get a detailed list od associated gear and room environs. In that way they are able to customize any amp for the prospective buyer. Not just the biasing, where they adjust the amp somewhat to suit either a bright or dark speaker, but actually customize to exact systems and rooms.

When Klauss Bunge started Odyssey he was looking to make a living, not a fortune. He honestly wanted to offer absolute bang for the buck with massive performance and massive, heavy, machined cases. He wanted a customer who was so blown away by the quality of what he bought that he couldn't keep quiet and had to chatter about it nonstop. Thanks in part to the internet, it worked. And word of mouth has given them over 3000 customers (happy ones).] *

>>> Now, for my two-channel Stereo listening room only, this is the amp I want.
For my Home Theater room (7.2-channel), I'll settle for an Emotiva XPA-2 and XPA-5.

Thank you all for listening.

P.S. Yes, the review is available online, here it is:
@ www.avguide.com/review/tas-195-odyssey-audio-khartago-stereo-amplifier

Mmm... should have look first before I wrote this post.

[jitclint]

I'll pick my Emotiva XPA-1 or Rotel RB-1090 over my Odyssey Stratos Mono Extremes any day. I've gone between them, comparing and studying them, with different speakers and equipment and I'm selling my Odyssey setup. I'm very pleased with the Emotiva XPA-1. My ears are what I go by, not someone else hype. In the end...... it's what you like.

[NorthStar]

Mar 8, 2010 1:36:19 GMT -5 jitclint said:

I'll pick my Emotiva XPA-1 or Rotel RB-1090 over my Odyssey Stratos Mono Extremes any day. I've gone between them, comparing and studying them, with different speakers and equipment and I'm selling my Odyssey setup. I'm very pleased with the Emotiva XPA-1. My ears are what I go by, not someone else hype. In the end...... it's what you like.

How much you want for your Odyssey Stratos Mono Extremes?

[ratso]

thanx mintzar (and others) for bringing up odyssey amps. i was trying to find a good looking affordable 2 channel amp and i had forgotten about these. as far as the controversy goes, the further i go in this hobby the more i find myself becoming narrow minded. i personally believe the straight forward no-nonsense approach of peter aczel (the audio critic) - all amps that measure flat sound the same. if you can't measure it, you can't hear it is my motto.

[NorthStar]

Personally, I don't care about the measurements, but I sure can tell the differences between all my receivers. And for me, Yamaha sounds better than Denon or Onkyo or Marantz or Pioneer receivers.
It's all in the details, the resolution, the clarity, the naturalism, the comfort, the openess, the truth.

[edmondwolfman]

It's really about what your hearing is after all these years. If you don't hear the highs that well you may very well like electronics that are bright, to others that will seem harsh. I've been in different places where the music has so much bass and no treble I can't understand it at all. The other person doesn't hear lows that well so has the bass cranked up but also they hear the highs well and have those backed way off. Sounds right to them, sucks to me.

A lot of other factors are in play also but never forget that what one listener is hearing may be worlds apart from what you or I could listen too for even a few minutes.

As far as the previous post I listened to Yamaha and Denon side by side in the same showroom, same speakers, same music and had both played in direct mode (no room correction) and the Yamaha was much brighter - read more harsh - than the Denon. I took home the Denon. Does that mean the previous post doesn't know what they are talking about? No it just means we hear differently from one another.

[NorthStar]

^ I agree with the poster above, but still, Denon is overemphasizing the mid bass which sounds very loose, and makes the overall sound too veiled, too restricted, too reserved, too unrealistic, plain shrunk.
Yamaha ain't bright at all, it's natural, truth to the music, good balance, everything just right, bass is much better than Denon.
Marantz is just too harsh, shrill, excruciating in comparison.
Onkyo is bright, irratating, frustrating.
Pioneer is too soft, too mellow, too smooth.

My ears are golden ones.

[edmondwolfman]

I think maybe the last post was a prime example of someone that "hears" things differently than I do. I don't know if the previous poster was able to listen to Yamaha and Denon and Marantz all in the same room side by side with the same speakers and the same music, with all room correction turned off but I did and trust me the Denon is not near as harsh as the Yamaha. Now if you hear them in different settings or one has room correction on and you don't know it you could come up with any type of conclusion. My Denon is a 3808 and I was comparing it to whatever the Yamaha equivalent was at the time, maybe 1400, I'm not sure but they were around $1600 receivers at the time. If you read posts, Yamaha is generally known as a bright piece of electronics.

Funny, there were 2 salespersons on hand that day, the girl liked the Yamaha better and had it at home and the guy liked the Denon better and he had the Denon at home. I had control and I flipped back and forth on the same songs, the Yamaha was always brighter. I had the salesperson flip back and forth and not tell me which one he was on, 100% of my choice in the blind test was that the Yamaha was too bright to listen too very long, at least for me.

[Wideawake]

De gustibus non est disputandum. Latin for "there is no disputing taste". If everyone liked the same sound we would not have all these competing products. I personally prefer the sound of the Yamaha receivers but that does not mean that I have golden ears and Edmond doesn't. If it does then that's akin to saying something like, "My favorite color is blue and since your favorite color is not blue your eyesight is not as good as mine." If Edmond prefers the Denon, then that's just the way it is. It is not something that's open for debate.

[satow]

Wow! Thanks everyone for the fantastic reviews! So far I haven't found anything that has the abilities of UMC-1 so I'm buying it, but that leads my quest for a good power amp. My current stereo power amp is a Creek A42 power amp on a Creek passive pre. It takes about 20 minutes for the amp to warm up, but after that it sounds wonderful. I am debating on getting XPA-2 or XPA-3 and moving the Creek to the rear channels. I have absolutely no experience with Emotiva and my UMC-1 order won't be filled till mid April. So now is the time to decide between the Odyssey or Emotiva.


So I figure I'm even more confused now!

[NorthStar]

Mar 8, 2010 17:19:01 GMT -5 edmondwolfman said:

I think maybe the last post was a prime example of someone that "hears" things differently than I do. I don't know if the previous poster was able to listen to Yamaha and Denon and Marantz all in the same room side by side with the same speakers and the same music, with all room correction turned off but I did and trust me the Denon is not near as harsh as the Yamaha. Now if you hear them in different settings or one has room correction on and you don't know it you could come up with any type of conclusion. My Denon is a 3808 and I was comparing it to whatever the Yamaha equivalent was at the time, maybe 1400, I'm not sure but they were around $1600 receivers at the time. If you read posts, Yamaha is generally known as a bright piece of electronics.

Funny, there were 2 salespersons on hand that day, the girl liked the Yamaha better and had it at home and the guy liked the Denon better and he had the Denon at home. I had control and I flipped back and forth on the same songs, the Yamaha was always brighter. I had the salesperson flip back and forth and not tell me which one he was on, 100% of my choice in the blind test was that the Yamaha was too bright to listen too very long, at least for me.

The Denon AVR-3808CI equivalent is the Yamaha RX-V3900, well the 3800 to be more exact.
The Yammy is a much better receiver, according to the golden ears from my wife. Hey, I'm the one that have to live with her.
And she seems to be quite right too, because according to several reviewers, they all agree with her. The 3900 even beats up the Onkyo 906. Just check DVD Area.

[NorthStar]

Mar 8, 2010 18:08:19 GMT -5 satow said:

Wow! Thanks everyone for the fantastic reviews! So far I haven't found anything that has the abilities of UMC-1 so I'm buying it, but that leads my quest for a good power amp. My current stereo power amp is a Creek A42 power amp on a Creek passive pre. It takes about 20 minutes for the amp to warm up, but after that it sounds wonderful. I am debating on getting XPA-2 or XPA-3 and moving the Creek to the rear channels. I have absolutely no experience with Emotiva and my UMC-1 order won't be filled till mid April. So now is the time to decide between the Odyssey or Emotiva.


So I figure I'm even more confused now!

You can get a Yamaha Pro amp for only $449, the P2500.
True 250 watts per channel into 8 ohms, across the full audio spectrum (20 Hz to 20 Khz).
It's an excellent sounding and very powerful stereo amp. And it's cheap too.

[KrellAV]

with Edmond on the sonic signatures between the Yamaha and the Denon receivers. I recently sold a Yamaha RX-V3800 ($1600) after about a year. It is very harsh to my ears and could only stand a very short period of listening to it. Thank goodness it was in a BR. After selling it, I bought the Denon AVR-4810 and this is an outstanding receiver! Smooth, detailed and powerful for a receiver. I am mating it with a UPA-5 as soon as I can get time to connect it. I am curious to here the difference in the sound of the internal amps versus the UPA.

As has been mentioned by several in this thread, there are many products out there and each has their signature sound that appeals to folks. Happy listening!


KrellAV

[NorthStar]

Heck I luv my Denon 3805, it is very smooth indeed, too much actually.
But then, my speakers are extremely smooth.
So, for my speakers the Yamahas are a match made in heaven.

But I do understand that for bright speakers the Denons are much more appropriate.

[Nemesis.ie]

Mar 8, 2010 20:30:53 GMT -5 KrellAV said:

with Edmond on the sonic signatures between the Yamaha and the Denon receivers. I recently sold a Yamaha RX-V3800 ($1600) after about a year. It is very harsh to my ears and could only stand a very short period of listening to it.

Out of interest, did you have it un-EQed or Flat or Natural YPAO? (or something else).