Odyssey Khartago vs. XPA-2

[tchaik]

Oct 28, 2015 19:53:13 GMT -5 lehighvalleyjeff said:

Oct 27, 2015 17:15:11 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Do you use a preamp with your xpa-1? The emo amps like their preamps

+1. The XPR-1's with the XSP-1 preamp combo took my breath away but both components paired with gear from other manufacturers the synergy wasn't there. I'm not a fanboy but the emo amps sound better paired with their preamp and wired up in a balanced setup

i need, i need, i need….
i want, i want, iwant…..

[hemster]

Oct 28, 2015 15:46:25 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

In theory, there would be no difference between a ¼ watt, plus or minus 20% carbon composite resistor and a 2-watt, 1%-tolerance metal film one provided that they were both run within their design limits. In practice, the carbon composite might be (or might not be) measurably more noisy, but the difference would not likely be audible.

For capacitors, however, I can CLEARLY hear the difference between tantalum, non-polarized electrolytic, and film capacitors. This is not to say that one is "better" than the other - it depends on the application, but there are differences.

For tube electronics, my experience was that "premium" parts ALWAYS provided better reliability (mostly due to over-rating), and sometimes provided better sound as well. If the design required a 400-volt capacitor, I'd use a 600-volt or even an 800-volt one if there was physically room. For critical resistor applications, I'd use the highest wattage-rated part that would physically fit and with the tightest tolerance available to me. To my knowledge, all of the units that I modified (late 1970's to mid 1980's) are still in service with nothing but power supply capacitor replacements.

Using over-rated, tight-tolerance, and premium-quality parts is a quick way to run up the production cost of a mass-produced consumer electronic. But using such parts as a modification can pay dividends in durability and sound quality.

Boom

So what you're really saying is "you gets what you pays for".. right? 

[leonski]

In general, true. But it is a balancing act and also one of perceived value. Only YOU can decide what is of value to YOU and at what price point.
Without even getting into different gear by name, people listen for different things and value different aspects of performance. And only I can
decide how much $$$ some increment of improvement is worth to me.

[Boomzilla]

Oct 28, 2015 21:15:25 GMT -5 hemster said:

So what you're really saying is "you gets what you pays for".. right? 

No.

It isn't that simple. What I'm saying is that you can pay for plenty of "gold plating" that does NOTHING for the sound of the preamplifier. It isn't just a matter of "pay more = better sound."

Better components CAN make a sonic difference, but only in specific uses and only with a good design to start with. A gold plated turd still sounds like a turd.

But what is already a great design can be hobbled by economy. If cheap parts are used where better ones would sound better, then even the best design can sound funky. So what I'm saying is that often times, really good designs are prevented from sounding as good as they're capable of by the desire to meet price points.

I'll grant that Emotiva seems to do a better job than most for optimizing their designs by using better parts where they can really pay off, but the Emotiva designs are still built to a (comparatively low) price point. I would like to hear an XSP-1 that was built with twice the parts budget to see if it sounded better than the production line XSP-1 built to its price point. My gut feeling is that it would. And while speculating, would the 2x price point be one that I'd be willing to pay for? Yes - but only if the extra cost was noticeably audible.

So you CAN pay much more for useless cabinetry, faceplate, and parts that don't affect the sound at all, or you can pay more for an exceptional design built to a higher budget where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. There's no way to tell the difference between the two but by listening.

Boomzilla

[leonski]

And yet, one of the most frequently written lines in the reviewers lexicon is 'punches above its price point'. If every piece that had that written about it was priced 'fairly' against performance, at least according to many reviewers, The whole industry would cost 25% MORE. Than it'd start again.

And Boom, I'm NOT picking on you at all, but Many people would find spending 1300$ (OUCH!) on the new OPPO BD-105d to be so far out in left field as to warrant a mental exam. You own the original which was what? A grand?

I think the PERCEPTION can be that you get what you pay for. Somebody is buying some Awful Expensive stuff. Are a pair of Constellation Monos worth 27x MORE than my pair of Parasound A23? You tell me.

[Boomzilla]

Well, the interesting thing, leonski, is that good design is not the exclusive property of highly-priced equipment. The NAD entry level integrated amps, for example, had (and have) exceptionally good design, but yet were/are "inexpensive." The old vacuum tube Dynaco stuff was also well-designed for its price.

Price is an individual perception. I can remember when the loss of a nickel from my pocket was a major disaster. Eventually, that "disaster range" went from five cents to five dollars to fifty dollars to five hundred dollars, etc. To my neighbor, the loss of $50K would be trivial.

You're right that many have a perception that "you get what you pay for," but in audio, it isn't always true. One can pay $50K for a pair of speaker wires that work no better than lamp cord. But the perception that "you get what you pay for" drives people to buy them.

So that perception - that there is a strong positive correlation between performance and price, is actually a stumbling block that audio consumers must overcome if they want to receive value for their dollars spent.

And how can one fight that mistaken perception? Only by listening & standing by what you hear. There are endless legions of well-meaning schlubs who will insist that their "measurements" somehow "prove" the superiority of their claims. Horse Hockey! There are those who will tell you that since reviewers have written glowing reviews of their product that it is "highly-regarded" and "considered superior." More horse hockey! In audio, the statement that "The Emperor has no clothes!" is not only far rarer than it should be but is also met with disdain by those whose minds are made up and don't want to be confused by their own ears.

If it sounds good to you, then it may be worth spending money on. If you can't hear a difference (or if such a difference is vanishingly small), then save your cash. Audio is fun, but only within the bounds of your budget. Don't be seduced by gear that you can't afford in hopes that it will be worth the price.

Boom

[leonski]

For SURE, Boom, perceptions are NOT always true. And NO you can't fight perception or the idea that some guy who buys 50 large worth of audio THINKS it better than your more modest system in a much better room. You know, the guy with
15 grand worth of Maggies, another 30 large in Pass amps / Preamp and some kind of exotic source. In a Square Concrete Bunker maybe 20 feet on a side with a 10 foot ceiling. And NO treatments.

I don't listen to reviews with the possible exception of a review with whom I have some kind of track record and share some musical values. THAN I can make use of the review, for better or worse.

Measurements and 'specs' are one of those 3rd rail issues. SOME corellations exist, but maybe not yet enough to make meaningful Predictions? I don't know. When I became (ultimately) dissatisfied with my 'd' amps, I searched for
a measurable reason. Maybe phase response in the upper octave due to that output Zobel / interaction with my panels?
Who knows?
No such issues with my Parasound stuff

[Boomzilla]

And you used your EARS to determine that! Good on you. Of course, our ears all differ, so I might choose different stuff. No foul at all - we must each choose whatever sounds most like music to our own ears.

[leonski]

And THAN spend as much or MORE $$$ than you can EVER lay your hands on!!!

Seriously, one Phenom in many fields is 'expectation bias'.

[frogman122]

The process has been started. I talked with him, he has agreed to bring his odyssey amps to my house. I am a little nervous. I'll have cold beer, and the wife is making a nice meat, cheese & fruit plate. I have my cd's and LP's ready, this time with MY room, speakers, furniture. Will be back in a couple weeks when I have the time.

[frogman122]

I am ordering a pair of the kismet monos by odyssey audio.
Xpa-1's already hooked up to basement system. Quite an audition. I'm sold!

If you haven't heard these odyssey amps after Their proper burn in, you owe it to yourself to hear a pair of the monos.

Didn't play as loud as m y xpa-'s, but loud is not everything. Wow!

[frogman122]

We have lots of older equipment, we move many things around from time to time.