Odyssey Khartago vs. XPA-2

[satow]

How does the Odyssey Khartago power amplifier ($795) compare to XPA-2 in terms of audio quality? The XPA-2 has much more power, but does it sound as good?

I've seen rave reviews for the Emotiva, but would like to read more subjective comparisons.

[bigred7078]

Thats hard to tell someone since we all have different systems in different rooms. Some people like Odyssey, others like Emotiva Both are great amps so there is no wrong choice.

[Nodscene]

Sorry, I can't help you with your question. I must say though that the Khartago is one nice looking amp! The internals look pretty impressive as well, actually reminds me of Emotiva amps. I'm sure you can't go too far wrong with either one.

www.odysseyaudio.com/products-khartago-stereo.html

[mintzar]

The Odyssey is a MUCH higher quality amp. It uses FAR better parts and in terms of amps is a better amp for music. Plus it's very easy to modify and upgrade for relatively little money.

I own an Odyssey Stratos now and find it far superior to the XPA amps. The XPAs have power, but NO damping factor. The damping factor in the stratos I have is about 800, vs 200 in the XPAs. That allows the stratos to have much better control of the speaker drivers. That plus higher quality parts will make all the difference in terms of keeping musical integrity. They are very musical amps.

[hpc]

Agree with mintzar in general. I have XPA-1's, Odyssey Kismet mono's, Khartago Extreme mono's, and traded my Stratos Extreme
mono's for the Kismet mono's. The Khartago Extreme beat out the XPA-1's, but not by a lot, but I don't have the absolute latest
mods from Klaus. The Stratos and Kismet just bury the XPA-1, but they are more expensive.

I do like being able to talk directly to Klaus and Alex about Odyssey products...Klaus is the 'Man!'. But I do admire EMO for
delivering very good products at an inexpensive price-point. But Klaus is delivering superior products with mucho better parts
quality from Germany, USA, etc.

If you're going for long term, go with Odyssey. They offer excellent upgrade paths.

[tchaik]

yep,

the odyssey's are beautiful amps. and the parts quality is obvious. as for power and sheer muscle you still can't beat the xpa-2 or (2) xpa-1s for the price/performance ratio. as for 'sounding as good' it depends an which musical aspects you value the most. 'subtlety-vs- power', 'transparency-vs-dynamic range', 'dead silence-vs-punch'.... over the years my priorities have shifted as to which attributes are the most important on a limited budget. of course if i had unlimited means i would not have to make sacrificial choices since i could spend mega dollars on a class 'a' 500 watt amp which would do all i need. so for now, as beautiful the khartago is, and having not heard it yet, i still believe that i prefer the greater power, muscle and dynamic range of the xpa-2. i hope to move up to the xpa-1s in a year. on the other hand who knows, a year from now my musical priorities may change.

as a professional pianist and classical performer, i have always been disappointed with the limited dynamic impact of expensive highly touted high end gear. few systems or amps ever give me the dynamic impact i experience sitting at a 9 foot steinway grand. (i am not speaking about the odyssey since i haven't heard them). but.....i have been most impressed with the xpa-2 because it captures for me the realism of 'live' dynamics. the last time i had that experience with an amp was back in the late 80's when i was able to afford my krell amps.

that being said , i would love to just own them all.


tchaik..................

[mintzar]

I'd say the Odyssey amps actually carry more weight than the XPA series. The Emo amps are quite a bit more colored than the Odyssey amps, even though they're touted as neutral. The Odyssey also have a much higher damping factor and ability to give you that impact and control. Wattage means very little in terms of being able to control speakers. The XPA-1s couldn't drive my old speakers anywhere near as well as the Nuforce could. High Current is what's important, wattage just means you can play louder without distortion.

Most people never use more than 150 watts even in the most demanding passages. The Emotivas are also high gain, which makes them noisy on high-sensitivity systems. I get pretty bad gain hum with the emo amps. That being said, when I owned the emotiva amps I loved them. I just found better.

You can also look into a Class D Audio kit for $175-$375 depending on the power, those are some of the best amp kits I've heard. If you can hold a screwdriver than you can build it. I'm rebuilding my power supply in the next few months and probably changing mine to dual mono. But even the stock kit replaced a $15k Class A Tube amp.

[Deleted]

The importance of the damping factor specification is certainly a subject of dispute in this hobby. I only mention this so others reading this thread will understand that there are differing opinions on this and that many very highly regarded amps have damping factors below 250 or so.

Emotiva XPA-2 ... DF - 200
Krell 600 ($15,000) ... DF - 270
Musical Fidelity Titan ($30,000) ... DF - 250
Pass Labs XA 30.5 ($5500) ... DF - 150
McIntosh MC501 ($4100) ... DF - 100

I recently read an article about amplifier THD (total harmonic distortion) where the writer mentioned:

"Amplifiers are rated based on average power. It is not unusual for me to play music on my system (quite loud) at 10 Watts average power (based on an eyeball estimate from an oscilloscope display of the voltage at the speaker terminals). One of the music samples used here played at an average power of 10 Watts would require a peak power of over 800 Watts! Clipping is not at all uncommon."

(Sorry, this is from a post I made some time ago. I can't find the exact author of this right now but I can confirm it was from an engineer doing detailed research on amplifier distortion).

I feel the need for instantaneous peak power in high volume playback of modern music and movie soundtracks can frequently be significantly greater than the 150 watts that you mention, especially with medium to low efficiency speakers. ;D

[mintzar]

You are right, I don't think damping factor is the only factor in amplifier performance... obviously. I think a good power supply will go 100x farther than a 4000 damping factor. A stabile clean power supply will help eliminate distortion and support musical integrity. The power supply -- even if low wattage -- allows for more dynamic bursts because of all the reserve power. The TRL Samsons are able to drive my speakers for 2 minutes totally unplugged from the wall. Then again, the Samsons are probably some of the best amplifiers in the world for under $30k.

I was speaking with Walter Liederman at Underwood Hifi the other day. And he is totally right when he says amplifiers are just parts. Better parts = better amplifier. That's what makes a Modwright 250 sound better than any other amp at its price. That's what will make the Odyssey Khartago sound better than an XPA-2.

The parts in the XPA-2 are cheap. That's why they can get so much power for so little money. If you compare that to the odyssey with much less power, you'll see that the Odyssey actually uses Nichicon gold tune capacitors that are $40 each and caddock/vishay resistors at $12 each. The emo amps use $2 capacitors in the power supply and $.02 resistors all sourced from china. I know this because I've looked inside all of my amps and found the exact same parts.

The Odyssey may have lower watts per channel. But, like damping factor, watts per channel don't mean a whole lot. 9 good watts will ALWAYS sound better than 500watts of crap. That's why people spend so much money on 30watt Class A amps. TRL's GT-800 amps at $140,000 are Class A 800watt monsters... but you need 35amp circuits and deep pockets to run em. Point: It's all about parts. Odyssey has better parts.

[mj]

Sorry, but I've just got to comment on this:

I was speaking with Walter Liederman at Underwood Hifi the other day. And he is totally right when he says amplifiers are just parts. Better parts = better amplifier. That's what makes a Modwright 250 sound better than any other amp at its price. That's what will make the Odyssey Khartago sound better than an XPA-2.

As an EE, the above is just wrong. Put great parts into a bad design and you get bad. Put great parts into a great design and implement it badly and you get bad.

Generally, my theory is that if it makes you happy go for it. But that quote is just so wrong I had to speak up.

For a full disclaimer, I have two UPA-1s but I am far from an Emotiva fanboy.

[Jimna]

Mar 5, 2010 12:35:54 GMT -5 mj said:

Sorry, but I've just got to comment on this:

I was speaking with Walter Liederman at Underwood Hifi the other day. And he is totally right when he says amplifiers are just parts. Better parts = better amplifier. That's what makes a Modwright 250 sound better than any other amp at its price. That's what will make the Odyssey Khartago sound better than an XPA-2.

As an EE, the above is just wrong. Put great parts into a bad design and you get bad. Put great parts into a great design and implement it badly and you get bad.

Generally, my theory is that if it makes you happy go for it. But that quote is just so wrong I had to speak up.

For a full disclaimer, I have two UPA-1s but I am far from an Emotiva fanboy.

so then the question is can cheap parts employed in a great design render a high yield? or is the weakest link still holding the sum to a poor rating?

i appreciate the honesty in this thread. the EMO fanboys here on the forum start to give the place a lack of value because the opinions are all biased instead of fact based.

[monkumonku]

Mar 5, 2010 13:23:59 GMT -5 Jimna said:

Mar 5, 2010 12:35:54 GMT -5 mj said:

Sorry, but I've just got to comment on this:

I was speaking with Walter Liederman at Underwood Hifi the other day. And he is totally right when he says amplifiers are just parts. Better parts = better amplifier. That's what makes a Modwright 250 sound better than any other amp at its price. That's what will make the Odyssey Khartago sound better than an XPA-2.

As an EE, the above is just wrong. Put great parts into a bad design and you get bad. Put great parts into a great design and implement it badly and you get bad.

Generally, my theory is that if it makes you happy go for it. But that quote is just so wrong I had to speak up.

For a full disclaimer, I have two UPA-1s but I am far from an Emotiva fanboy.

so then the question is can cheap parts employed in a great design render a high yield? or is the weakest link still holding the sum to a poor rating?

i appreciate the honesty in this thread. the EMO fanboys here on the forum start to give the place a lack of value because the opinions are all biased instead of fact based.

I think the point is that these Odyssey amps appear to have great parts and are well-designed, but priced at a level that is more affordable than comparable equipment. They still cost more than Emotiva stuff but I'd be curious to give a listen to see how they sound! By the way, I'm an Emo fanboy myself but things are what they are.. if something is good or bad I don't care what brand it is. It just happens that the gear I've gotten so far from Emo has been great (notwithstanding the UMC-1 that I am still examining..).

[Jimna]

and im not trying to insult anyone either, im a loyal fan of the things that prove themselves like you said.....and i am waiting on my emo amp, so ill be a fanboy soon too.

[Mister L'fe]

After having sent an XPA-2 back for hum problems and sitting here waiting for a replacement for my XPA-5 with essentially the same problems (noisy transformer and hum in the speakers), I would be willing to question Emotiva's quality/quality control. On the other hand I can't complain about their customer service, they've been very responsive when I've called.

[mj]

BTW, I should have been more clear in that I am not knocking Odyssey amps. They could be the world's best or worst amps - I simply don't know. So if folks love them that's great, and I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade here.

What I was specifically referring to was that quote, which is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

So far as bad parts in a great design, it depends. If it's truly bad parts in the design, well then the party's over. Bad parts, bad design, bad implementation - any of these will kill the overall result.

Many times cheap parts meet the same characteristics as the more expensive, but they won't last as long. In that case the performance is the same but the reliability isn't. Only Emotiva knows what their failure rate is, and I suspect that they (rightfully) won't comment one way or another. ;D

As I just bought two UPA-1s I'm obviously not too worried about this, but time will tell. I have seen horrible quality issues with Chinese parts in the past, but I've also seen the same with U.S. parts. Overall I prefer the U.S. parts, but it is very hard to avoid Chinese parts in general. And even parts made in the US may contain sub-assemblies or materials built in China...

If the cheap parts have the same electrical characteristics as the expensive ones then the performance is going to be the same. Many times, but not always, you can spend more and get a better component. Other times you can spend less, but match the components, and then get superior results. And it all varies on the design and implementation.

But ask yourself this. If I'm a great designer, am I going to stuff parts that will cripple it into the product? At least by my definition of a great designer - no. I trust that the designer is using high precision parts where appropriate and otherwise isn't. I also trust that high quality parts are used in critical parts of the design, but that elsewhere they aren't.

At the end of the day you need to review the measurements, which if done correctly are objective, and give it a listen. I don't know if Odyssey lets you preview their amps, but if they do compare both and buy the one you like.

PS. I haven't yet popped the covers on my new amps, so I can't comment on Emotiva's design from my perspective. I will say that they are very honest in their approach to specifications, which puts them well above average in the audio industry.

PPS. You also have to decide at which point you draw the line at diminishing returns. As an example, printed circuit boards (PCB) generally use copper and fiberglass/epoxy in their construction. Silver is about 5-10% less resistive than copper, and you could make a PCB using only silver. However, it would be fiendishly expensive. And in many cases, you could get better results with the copper by simply adding a couple more layers to the PCB.

[cgolf]

For me, quality, value and price come before blind brand loyalty. As long as that brand provides quality and value, then I'll continue buying it or at least keep it in the mix. I haven't had any other amps other than Emotiva amps so I can't personally say how they match sound wise against any other brand.

Price is certainly important but so is value and of course so is quality. The Emo amps I have had have all worked well but if I can get something else that is "quite a bit better in quality" for not a whole lot more money, then I certainly want to explore that option. But that's true for me for any product, especially something that gets into the hundreds of dollars and up. Just good business!! ;D

[Mister L'fe]

Mar 5, 2010 14:37:54 GMT -5 Mister L'fe said:

After having sent an XPA-2 back for hum problems and sitting here waiting for a replacement for my XPA-5 with essentially the same problems (noisy transformer and hum in the speakers), I would be willing to question Emotiva's quality/quality control. On the other hand I can't complain about their customer service, they've been very responsive when I've called.

I'd like to add: Emotiva has already FedEx'ed a new replacement for for the "bad" XPA-5 even before seeing it. How many companies would do that?

[Deleted]

Hummmm (pun intended), probably zero. ;D

[mintzar]

Emotiva has great customer service, of that there is no doubt.

I will have to disagree that parts quality don't make a difference. Will a bad design + good parts sound better than a good design with modest parts, most likely not.

My argument is that a better component is better because of parts. Implementing those parts is understood. Most people don't know to use good parts when they don't know how to make a good design in the first place. I am lucky enough to hear more equipment in a few months than people will hear in their entire lifetime.

I have popped open all of the emo amps I owned, and I owned the UPA-2, XPA-5, XPA-2, and XPA-1s. I'm very familiar with the emo sound and quality. Emotiva uses modern multi-layer circuit boards. This is why their s/n ratio is as low as it is. But low noise doesn't mean there's no distortion elsewhere. The parts they use are cheap and sourced from China. I had UPA-2s on my system recently as an interim amplifier, but I couldn't listen to them for more than a month because of how bad they sounded. I'm sure other systems are noisy enough to hide those flaws, because for the price it's a stellar amplifier. They were edgy and couldn't handle complex musical passages at all -- and I'm running 100dB efficient speakers and bi-amping with an active crossover. And the speakers are hardwired for an extremely easy load to the amps. I then switched to a digital amp that I built and the odyssey and the difference was monumental. Then again, I'm using a spatial system so my system is hyper revealing.

Rambling over. The point is that parts make a large difference. The odysseys are better built amps than the emos and less colored. The odyssey amps drive my speakers better than the emos did. So that's just my experience and has nothing to do with emotiva's quality. They make nice gear that people love. Most people haven't heard a $50k amplifier though or a $300k system. So I am merely giving input on these pieces of gear from someone who has owned both and has heard and built some really high-end gear.

[jitclint]

I have the Odyssey Stratos Mono Extremes, and also the OdysseyTempest Pre.

I am going to disagree with others here.

I find the Emotiva XPA-1 a much better amp, even in build quality...on the inside, done more professionally with solders, etc.
My Odyssey almost looks like a small sound card board with capcitors wired to it. The binding post wires had been forgotten to be soldered so I had to have that fixed by Klause.

I find my Emotiva XPA-1 and even my Rotel RB-1090 have a much better sound stage and involvement to the music than that of the Odyssey. The Odyssey are nice in their own right but for me I am seriously thinking of selling my Odyssey Stratos Mono Extreme amps because I just don't enjoy them as much as the Emotiva XPA-1 and Rotel RB-1090. In one of the audio reviews the Rotel RB-1090 did win over the Odyssey but I came to that conclusion on my own after purchasing the Odyssey and comparing it to the Rotel before that review came out. The Emotiva XPA-1 is on par with the Rotel RB-1090, possibly slightly better if you like the mid-range a little fuller sounding.

This is just my two cents of owning both.