Ultra 12...SVS..F15SE???

[atczero]

I have read every thread about all of these and unfortunately due to many products being back ordered the timeline doesn't work to audition them at home within a thirty day period for return.

I have a dedicated room 12'x17' with 9' ceiling. My setup is in my sig. I am equally interested in accurate bass for critical music reproduction as well as real "hit you in the chest" LFE on blu-ray/DVD.

I spoke with SVS about the PB-12 plus and was told I'd be happier with 2 of the NSD-12's for about the same price ($1200-$1300). They also have preorders available for the new SB12-NSD.

The F15SE look to be an excellent candidate but with the new sale right now for 2 of the Ultra-12's for $750, should I be interested?

Is getting down to 20Hz good enough or is the extension down to 14-16Hz the difference maker?

Thanks for your thoughts and comments...I'm leaning toward the two Ultra-12's NOT being enough on the low end for great LFE but most likely a great selection for just music.

Thanks....

[ntrain42]

May 30, 2010 8:21:11 GMT -5 atczero said:

I have read every thread about all of these and unfortunately due to many products being back ordered the timeline doesn't work to audition them at home within a thirty day period for return.

I have a dedicated room 12'x17' with 9' ceiling. My setup is in my sig. I am equally interested in accurate bass for critical music reproduction as well as real "hit you in the chest" LFE on blu-ray/DVD.

I spoke with SVS about the PB-12 plus and was told I'd be happier with 2 of the NSD-12's for about the same price ($1200-$1300). They also have preorders available for the new SB12-NSD.

The F15SE look to be an excellent candidate but with the new sale right now for 2 of the Ultra-12's for $750, should I be interested?

Is getting down to 20Hz good enough or is the extension down to 14-16Hz the difference maker?

Thanks for your thoughts and comments...I'm leaning toward the two Ultra-12's NOT being enough on the low end for great LFE but most likely a great selection for just music.

Thanks....

Well, I went from a pair of PB13 Ultra's to a pair of D15se's eventually. For music no comparison in my book. In fact if you check out the Rythmik thread over at AVS or check out various threads over at TSA you will find alot of previous SVS owners switched to Rythmik.

[atczero]

thanks...i have read alot at AVS and HTS...

Am I correct in thinking one D15SE will be better performing than 2 Ultra12's?? Also taking into account eveness of freq response in the room...I can do some tweaking with the SMS-1 but I understand it's not the best option for eq of 2 subs. I only have a budget of around $1300.

Also...why do you suggest the D15SE over the F15SE?

[ntrain42]

May 30, 2010 11:03:17 GMT -5 atczero said:

thanks...i have read alot at AVS and HTS...

Am I correct in thinking one D15SE will be better performing than 2 Ultra12's?? Also taking into account eveness of freq response in the room...I can do some tweaking with the SMS-1 but I understand it's not the best option for eq of 2 subs. I only have a budget of around $1300.

Also...why do you suggest the D15SE over the F15SE?

I personally like the D15se because it has 0 localization issues. I also run monitors that can play down to 80hz strongly with no distortion. So the downfiring subs to me were the preferred option. If your running small monitors that have a hard time play down to and below the 80hz range you should probably grab the F15. Remember both use the same driver,amp and enclosure volume, just one is downfiring/boundary loaded, and the other is front firing. The front firing design will blend into smaller monitors that cant play midbass notes effectively.

Also if you have a processor with a balanced XLR sub output, then grab the XLR version. It will allow you to daisy chain subs in a master/slave config(the master sub controls all aspects of the slave sub minus phase)so if you ever have the money to buy a second, you just piggy back the second sub to the first. Very slick feature. ;D

In terms of musical accuracy, yeah, any of the RYthmik subs will outperform any SVS product. In terms of sheer output, you probably will get a bit more output with the 12's, but in the size room you have one 15" RYthmik is gonna give you some serious output without breaking a sweat.

I mean, for about $1400-1600 you could get a pair of 12" Rythmiks if you are really worried about output. Not sure if that is in your budget, but your really close.

[atczero]

Good info...my mains are tower designs rated down to 40Hz and they do quite well for music. My biggest want out of the sub is "physical slam" on LFE material, but I'm not willing to sacrifice musical accuracy to get there. Overall output/spl isn't the main goal but if two subs give a better overall response in every seat of the room then that is preferrable. I question what info I'll miss on the LFE tracks with the Emotiva Ultra12(2) setup vs. either Rythmik models. Thoughts???

[Porscheguy]

For my money I'd go with SVS. They play louder, lower and are much more musical in my opinion and the opinion of many others including a lot of well respected reviewers. You can run them ported or sealed if you like depending on your room and taste for sound. I've had many conversations with guys that own the SVS Ultra or Plus and everyone is TOTALLY satisfied.

SVS is a major player in ID subwoofers and have garnered much praise from the HT press. On their website there are a dozen or so reviews that literally gush over their performance. You can't go wrong with SVS. There are many people who have had other brands (including Rhythmik) and have switched to SVS and have never looked back.

Rhythmik? Not sure. Very little is known about this company. They have one employee, the owner Brian who is a real nice guy, but you have to wonder about their stability. I wanted to buy a F15 from him in oak veneer and after trying for two months I gave up. He couldn't even find a guy to veneer a cabinet...... Not very good service.

I should also say I don't need a sub for music as my Snells play down to 30hz. So for me it's a bit more about movies.

I'm getting (2) PB12 Plus' but I'm waiting..... The line is long. I want have mine until July.

Good luck with your search!!!

[alphaiii]

Last I knew, Brian sourced his sub cabinets from China. If he's not building them, or having them built locally, I wouldn't imagine it'd be as simple as just ordering one cabinet in oak veneer.

He sells DIY kits for those that want custom cabinets built by themselves or someone else.

SVS is a much bigger company, and they have more finish options. They've been around awhile, and have a proven track record.

But I have to say, I think they're marketing for the new sealed subs is extremely full of hype, so they better be able to deliver. They have managed to move from "built in the US" to "built in Taiwan" for the new sealed subs, and yet their price point certainly didn't go down, so the performance needs to make up for it. I hope they deliver the goods.

Also, Porscheguy, I think you're post is the only one I have seen claiming the SVS subs are "much more musical" than the Rythmik subs. I'm not saying that they aren't out there and I might have just missed them...but I haven't seen them. I will agree that I have read reviews/comments touting the Ultras.

I have, however, also read reviews about the NSD-10/12 stating that they are more of a HT sub and aren't the last word in musicality.

[alphaiii]

May 30, 2010 14:54:17 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

For my money I'd go with SVS. They play louder, lower and are much more musical in my opinion

Just want to make sure I interpreted your post correctly. You were comparing the SVS vs. Rythmik, right?

You said you tried for 2 months to get a Rythmik sub, but gave up when you couldn't get oak veneer. So did you actually audition one?

And are you comparing the SVS Ultra to the Rythmik, the Plus, or the NSD?

If you're claiming the NSD are more musical than the Rythmik...that would definitely be the first I've seen that claim.


I haven't heard any SVS or Rythmik offerings... so I'm interested in people's opinions of these subs.

[ntrain42]

May 30, 2010 15:16:26 GMT -5 alphaiii said:

Last I knew, Brian sourced his sub cabinets from China. If he's not building them, or having them built locally, I wouldn't imagine it'd be as simple as just ordering one cabinet in oak veneer.

He sells DIY kits for those that want custom cabinets built by themselves or someone else.

SVS is a much bigger company, and they have more finish options. They've been around awhile, and have a proven track record.

But I have to say, I think they're marketing for the new sealed subs is extremely full of hype, so they better be able to deliver. They have managed to move from "built in the US" to "built in Taiwan" for the new sealed subs, and yet their price point certainly didn't go down, so the performance needs to make up for it. I hope they deliver the goods.

Also, Porscheguy, I think you're post is the only one I have seen claiming the SVS subs are "much more musical" than the Rythmik subs. I'm not saying that they aren't out there and I might have just missed them...but I haven't seen them. I will agree that I have read reviews/comments touting the Ultras.

I have, however, also read reviews about the NSD-10/12 stating that they are more of a HT sub and aren't the last word in musicality.

Porscheguy has never heard or demo'd either a Rythmik or SVS sub. He opinion is based nothing more than reading threads on other forums.

Again there are quite a few PREVIOUS SVS owners on a number of forums who actually have experience with both SVS and Rythmik and ended up with the Rythmik product(And I haven't seen really anyone who went the other way as Porscheguy claims..... ).

Another thing too Porcheguy doesn't understand, is that all those professional "reviews" on the SVS subs are forms of paid advertisement. Every single review done on SVS subs, is done with a publication where SVS advertises heavily. Ever notice that publications review products that are advertised through them? Thats why I always take reviews with a grain of salt at most. Regardless the SVS is a good quality product, and Id take their Ultra series over alot of other products out there for the money spent, but not over a Rythmik sub.

[ntrain42]

May 30, 2010 14:21:03 GMT -5 atczero said:

Good info...my mains are tower designs rated down to 40Hz and they do quite well for music. My biggest want out of the sub is "physical slam" on LFE material, but I'm not willing to sacrifice musical accuracy to get there. Overall output/spl isn't the main goal but if two subs give a better overall response in every seat of the room then that is preferrable. I question what info I'll miss on the LFE tracks with the Emotiva Ultra12(2) setup vs. either Rythmik models. Thoughts???

I would take the servo controlled 15" downfiring driver vs. a pair of entry level Ultra subs. Again, in the room you have physical slam, impact and output is not going to be an issue. Use the 50hz 24db xover setting on the D15se and highpass the towers around 50hz as well and you will get a nice seamless blend.

[Porscheguy]

I have heard the F15 and the Ultra, not side by side though. Not sure where Brian's cabinets come from. I have not heard the NSD, but the point of my post was to illustrate that all the subs from SVS are great performers. Thats my opinion and the opinion of countless reviewers. As to their "musicality", I believe many have made that claim. Here's one:



“Without the plugs…the PB12-Plus delivered perhaps the most detailed, subtle performance of all these subs.”

Brent Butterworth, Sound and Vision Magazine, September 09

The whole review is on SVS's website along with reviews of many of their fine products..


As to Rhythmik, no one really knows. There are no professional reviews from anyone, probably because the population of Rhythmik is so small. I have read some good things in forums about them though. The only one raving about them is another member here who just goes on and on about Rhythmik in the absence of any real independent testing.

All of what is here are just opinions. Speakers (and subwoofers) are probably the most sensitive part of a system owing a lot of their sound to placement and room acoustics. So what might great in one room with one brand can sound completely different in another room for those reasons.

Just trying to keep the playing field level....... :-)

[Porscheguy]

May 30, 2010 15:49:39 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

May 30, 2010 15:16:26 GMT -5 alphaiii said:

Last I knew, Brian sourced his sub cabinets from China. If he's not building them, or having them built locally, I wouldn't imagine it'd be as simple as just ordering one cabinet in oak veneer.

He sells DIY kits for those that want custom cabinets built by themselves or someone else.

SVS is a much bigger company, and they have more finish options. They've been around awhile, and have a proven track record.

But I have to say, I think they're marketing for the new sealed subs is extremely full of hype, so they better be able to deliver. They have managed to move from "built in the US" to "built in Taiwan" for the new sealed subs, and yet their price point certainly didn't go down, so the performance needs to make up for it. I hope they deliver the goods.

Also, Porscheguy, I think you're post is the only one I have seen claiming the SVS subs are "much more musical" than the Rythmik subs. I'm not saying that they aren't out there and I might have just missed them...but I haven't seen them. I will agree that I have read reviews/comments touting the Ultras.

I have, however, also read reviews about the NSD-10/12 stating that they are more of a HT sub and aren't the last word in musicality.

Porscheguy has never heard or demo'd either a Rythmik or SVS sub. He opinion is based nothing more than reading threads on other forums.

Again there are quite a few PREVIOUS SVS owners on a number of forums who actually have experience with both SVS and Rythmik and ended up with the Rythmik product(And I haven't seen really anyone who went the other way as Porscheguy claims..... ).

Another thing too Porcheguy doesn't understand, is that all those professional "reviews" on the SVS subs are forms of paid advertisement. Every single review done on SVS subs, is done with a publication where SVS advertises heavily. Ever notice that publications review products that are advertised through them? Thats why I always take reviews with a grain of salt at most. Regardless the SVS is a good quality product, and Id take their Ultra series over alot of other products out there for the money spent, but not over a Rythmik sub.

How do you know what I have heard? You have no clue whatsoever and stop calling me a liar. Ok, two can play this childish game.

Ntrain has never owned a pair of SVS PB Ultras. Lets see a picture. Most of us here think you are full of crap and haven't owned or heard even 10% of what you claim. And don't give me lessons on pro reviews, I'm not stupid. I've been around the HiFi thing a long time so stop lecturing me.

Its amazing that you can make all these wild claims about a product that you like, but if anyone else says anything about a competitive product you trash them.

I knew the very minute I voiced an opposing opinion to your beloved Rhythmik you would trash me and SVS .

You sir, are a royal jerk. This is why EVERYONE HATES YOU.

[atczero]

Porscheguy,

Would you also agree that for my needs/setup EITHER the svs PB12-Ultra or the Rythmik D15SE would be preferrable to (2) of the Emotiva Ultra 12's that are currently on sale?

Ntrain...thanks for the response. I may be overthinking the benefits of 2 subs.

[Porscheguy]

May 30, 2010 16:35:34 GMT -5 atczero said:

Porscheguy,

Would you also agree that for my needs/setup EITHER the svs PB12-Ultra or the Rythmik D15SE would be preferrable to (2) of the Emotiva Ultra 12's that are currently on sale?

Ntrain...thanks for the response. I may be overthinking the benefits of 2 subs.

To be honest, so little is known about the Emo subs and I have not heard them. I will say that both the Rhythmik and the SVS Ultra will play louder and deeper. But sometimes there is no substitute for volume and 2 X 12 can be better than 1 X 15 or 1 X 13. But not always. One thing about the Ultra - it is a monster on movies. Output galore and deeeeeeep.

I must admit the price is right at $750.00 for a pair of Emo's and you can return them if you're not happy.

I'm considering a test drive myself

[atczero]

May 30, 2010 16:52:20 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

May 30, 2010 16:35:34 GMT -5 atczero said:

Porscheguy,

Would you also agree that for my needs/setup EITHER the svs PB12-Ultra or the Rythmik D15SE would be preferrable to (2) of the Emotiva Ultra 12's that are currently on sale?

Ntrain...thanks for the response. I may be overthinking the benefits of 2 subs.

To be honest, so little is known about the Emo subs and I have not heard them. I will say that both the Rhythmik and the SVS Ultra will play louder and deeper. But sometimes there is no substitute for volume and 2 X 12 can be better than 1 X 15 or 1 X 13. But not always. One thing about the Ultra - it is a monster on movies. Output galore and deeeeeeep.

I must admit the price is right at $750.00 for a pair of Emo's and you can return them if you're not happy.

I'm considering a test drive myself

My thoughts exactly...I wonder how much low end frequency response would be added with the second emo? (most likely down to 20-24, but definitely not to the 14-16 Hz range?)

[Porscheguy]

May 30, 2010 17:01:28 GMT -5 atczero said:

May 30, 2010 16:52:20 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

To be honest, so little is known about the Emo subs and I have not heard them. I will say that both the Rhythmik and the SVS Ultra will play louder and deeper. But sometimes there is no substitute for volume and 2 X 12 can be better than 1 X 15 or 1 X 13. But not always. One thing about the Ultra - it is a monster on movies. Output galore and deeeeeeep.

I must admit the price is right at $750.00 for a pair of Emo's and you can return them if you're not happy.

I'm considering a test drive myself

My thoughts exactly...I wonder how much low end frequency response would be added with the second emo? (most likely down to 20-24, but definitely not to the 14-16 Hz range?)

I'm not sure adding a second one would help in going deeper but you will certainly create more SPL. No, the Emo sub probably will not play down that low. The human ear can't hear below 21hz or so but you can "feel" 16hz-18hz.

You would be surprised how low 20hz is. Most subs start rolling off way before they get there and when they do they usually aren't making a lot of SPL in those frequency's. So, if you have a sub that has a rather ruler flat curve and maintains "decent SPL" to 20hz-22hz, your covered for music and most HT material.

The SVS Ultra will do that, Rhythmik too. Maybe the the Emo's.... But the Ultra takes you to a different place in movie land. The deepest of the deep. Thats where ported subs shine deep and loud. I like the SVS 'cause you can run it sealed as well for tight highly responsive bass.

[Dan Laufman]

Hi guy's.
I love these threads...

Does value enter into anyone's thinking? Does a pair of great sounding Ultra 12's for $750.00 sitting on your doorstep not make you pause?

If you have $1300.00 to $1500.00 to spend, wouldn't you want to hang on to half of it, all things considered? Or, at least take a chance before you decided that the Ultra's were not going to cut it? You could buy a UMC-1 with what's left over!

We use a pair of Ultra 12's in our demo theater, and they absolutely kill. If you like our other products, do you really think we'd build a bad sub? Forget cost, these are great subs and very well engineered and developed. I'm surprised that you guy's aren't giving us a try. I've made it pretty easy to take the plunge. Fortunately, a lot of other people have purchased them at this great price this weekend. I hope you guy's do too.

Free shipping, 30 day trial period, 5 YEAR transferrable parts and labor warranty, and great sound!! $749.00 for a pair of Ultra 12's. Geez. I give up.

Remember, be nice to each other, please.
Dig Dan

[ntrain42]

May 30, 2010 16:15:57 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

I have heard the F15 and the Ultra, not side by side though. Not sure where Brian's cabinets come from. I have not heard the NSD, but the point of my post was to illustrate that all the subs from SVS are great performers. Thats my opinion and the opinion of countless reviewers. As to their "musicality", I believe many have made that claim. Here's one:



“Without the plugs…the PB12-Plus delivered perhaps the most detailed, subtle performance of all these subs.”

Brent Butterworth, Sound and Vision Magazine, September 09

The whole review is on SVS's website along with reviews of many of their fine products..


As to Rhythmik, no one really knows. There are no professional reviews from anyone, probably because the population of Rhythmik is so small. I have read some good things in forums about them though. The only one raving about them is another member here who just goes on and on about Rhythmik in the absence of any real independent testing.

All of what is here are just opinions. Speakers (and subwoofers) are probably the most sensitive part of a system owing a lot of their sound to placement and room acoustics. So what might great in one room with one brand can sound completely different in another room for those reasons.

Just trying to keep the playing field level....... :-)

Im going to have to call BS on this one. I don't think you have heard any Rythmik products at all, nor do I think you have heard an Ultra. There are only a handful of people in this area who have Rythmik subs, and I know everyone personally. SOrry but your posts from this thread and a handful of others contradicts everything your saying. Time to break out the toilet paper.

[ntrain42]

May 30, 2010 18:05:12 GMT -5 Dan Laufman said:

Hi guy's.
I love these threads...

Does value enter into anyone's thinking? Does a pair of great sounding Ultra 12's for $750.00 sitting on your doorstep not make you pause?

If you have $1300.00 to $1500.00 to spend, wouldn't you want to hang on to half of it, all things considered? Or, at least take a chance before you decided that the Ultra's were not going to cut it? You could buy a UMC-1 with what's left over!

We use a pair of Ultra 12's in our demo theater, and they absolutely kill. If you like our other products, do you really think we'd build a bad sub? Forget cost, these are great subs and very well engineered and developed. I'm surprised that you guy's aren't giving us a try. I've made it pretty easy to take the plunge. Fortunately, a lot of other people have purchased them at this great price this weekend. I hope you guy's do too.

Free shipping, 30 day trial period, 5 YEAR transferrable parts and labor warranty, and great sound!! $749.00 for a pair of Ultra 12's. Geez. I give up.

Remember, be nice to each other, please.
Dig Dan

How about posting more detailed specs on those Ultra's? T/S parameters and internal box volume would be nice. Alot of people are put off by these subs due to lack of technical info on em.

[ntrain42]

May 30, 2010 16:31:24 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

May 30, 2010 15:49:39 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Porscheguy has never heard or demo'd either a Rythmik or SVS sub. He opinion is based nothing more than reading threads on other forums.

Again there are quite a few PREVIOUS SVS owners on a number of forums who actually have experience with both SVS and Rythmik and ended up with the Rythmik product(And I haven't seen really anyone who went the other way as Porscheguy claims..... ).

Another thing too Porcheguy doesn't understand, is that all those professional "reviews" on the SVS subs are forms of paid advertisement. Every single review done on SVS subs, is done with a publication where SVS advertises heavily. Ever notice that publications review products that are advertised through them? Thats why I always take reviews with a grain of salt at most. Regardless the SVS is a good quality product, and Id take their Ultra series over alot of other products out there for the money spent, but not over a Rythmik sub.

How do you know what I have heard? You have no clue whatsoever and stop calling me a liar. Ok, two can play this childish game.

Ntrain has never owned a pair of SVS PB Ultras. Lets see a picture. Most of us here think you are full of crap and haven't owned or heard even 10% of what you claim. And don't give me lessons on pro reviews, I'm not stupid. I've been around the HiFi thing a long time so stop lecturing me.

Its amazing that you can make all these wild claims about a product that you like, but if anyone else says anything about a competitive product you trash them.

I knew the very minute I voiced an opposing opinion to your beloved Rhythmik you would trash me and SVS .

You sir, are a royal jerk. This is why EVERYONE HATES YOU.

Read my last statement, your own threads contradict yourself. Just very recently you stated on another thread that lack of information and veneer options are keeping you from the pulling the trigger on one. Here, your own thread: emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=subwoofeers&action=display&thread=10555&page=1

Again only a handful of people in this area have bought from Brian. And if you did hear one, you would most certainly have mentioned it already consider your thread. But since there has been a long backorder on F15's until just within the last week or so...........LOL! So get mad at me all you want, but I'm only using your own words posted from other very recent threads.

BTW, "Hate" is such a strong word.........unless it deals with the Lakers.