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Post by suffolk112000 on Jun 8, 2012 21:44:20 GMT -5
Thanks Tip... Well, I believe that answers some of my questions. I am still going to be calling Emotiva on Monday with some more questions.
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Post by Topend on Jun 8, 2012 22:17:13 GMT -5
It's amazing how such an innocent question can turn into such a debate. I only asked for something that was offered to us. Dave. Dave, In all honesty I think a personal email to Dan would have been a wiser move. This is such a public forum with many unregistered guests and too much limelight for anyone who would be best advised to ignore. I really did not think there would be much more that a one page brief if anything and maybe an advance on the instructional documentation as a position paper. I really try to support all of you on this forum but this thread has been an uncomfortable read for me. On the upside I think we are near an overall update on the XMC based on the LA meeting and if that went well then some advancements in more mature features and functions could be forthcoming. I still think we are not respecting so much the intellectual property aspect for Emotiva and their partners and the need to have a a pretty mature product with a production schedule prior to advancing documentation would seem logical. But please know I dig you guys all of you, and I am also counting the days! I did consider an email but I thought a simple question posted on the lounge would better share any info related to Tact. Dave.
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Post by rclark on Jun 9, 2012 1:13:15 GMT -5
It's amusing how you guys defend every Emotiva misstep. It's like a microcosm that shows you how a dictatorship can be successful.
That said, it is not unusual for some power users to not simply buy everything sight unseen, but will want to see all the (promised) performance benchmarks first. Some carefully integrate components, and want to know every single spec.
We were promised performance graphs and specs for the XMC, and the XSP, and hopefully we get to see all that soon.
The XSP was promised in July. It is June 8. Just sayin' Emotiva. Where's the beef?
If it all squares up, I'll be ordering again, but you're not making things very enjoyable for your fans.
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Post by suffolk112000 on Jun 9, 2012 7:45:17 GMT -5
I don’t own an Emo product… yet. I’ve been looking for a processor to replace my now sold Denon 3805. Mostly, I’ve been looking at receivers. Denon 4311. Anthem MRX-300. Also the Integra DHC 40.2 and briefly 80.3. You know what I found? All of the above have had issues. I have a friend that owns an Integra 80.1. He has had issues with it and has not been an extremely happy owner. Integra wouldn’t replace it. I also have a friend who owns a UMC-1. Ironically enough he has the same speakers I own. I’ve been able to listen to his set-up and I love it. He states his UMC-1 is very stable for him. So the bottom line is, I have a few questions about the UMC-1 and even the XMC-1 that I would like answered. Once I get answers to those questions, I may get the UMC-1.
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Post by suffolk112000 on Jun 9, 2012 7:48:16 GMT -5
It's amusing how you guys defend every Emotiva misstep. It's like a microcosm that shows you how a dictatorship can be successful. Unlike a 'dictatorship'.... you can leave anytime.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jun 9, 2012 10:29:11 GMT -5
It is just amazing to see that you can't even use the word "promised" when Dan clearly stated in the podcast that he would release a/the white paper on TacT. How silly is that. If someone says that they're going to do something, it is a promise to do so. If for some reason Dan decides to change his mind, he has all the right to do so. He is not accountable to any of us. But to take offense because we ask that he deliver on the promise? That's ridiculous I think that the white or technical paper will be in relation to the version developed for a processor. There is already a white paper for the original version developed for stereo operations. IMO, Emotiva has nothing to worry about the timing of the release (before or after the release of the XMC-1). What does really matter is how well it handles 7.2 surround information and how the XMC-1 sounds in general. And you can bet that with this pioneer product release, every print & online media will be evaluating it and rendering their opinions and comparing it to other RCS (room correction systems) ;D
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 9, 2012 10:33:52 GMT -5
So let me get this straight, the white paper isn't out yet but the XMC-1 is? That's not what we were told, what a bunch of... huh? The XMC-1 is not yet available? Oh, never mind.
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Post by knucklehead on Jun 9, 2012 11:06:15 GMT -5
I wonder how many here would understand this white paper if it were presented to them. I've glanced at a few white papers in the course of my years and have yet to glean much useful information from them.
Seems like much ado over very little...
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Post by Poodleluvr on Jun 9, 2012 11:09:20 GMT -5
Loyalty and trust exists in a relationship of which is not a one way street.
When someone says they are going to do something, they should deliver or later communicate further on the matter because when you say that you're going to do something, what occurs naturally is an expectation.
Personally, I'd rather not know anything, then to be teased, develop an expectation, and then no cigar.
I do own several Emotiva products to include a pair of XPA-1s .--I'm still waiting on the XSP-1 to compliment my XPA-1s...
And, I still intend to purchase the XSP-1 someday since I formerly made the investment into the pair of XPA-1s.
After that, as far as my purchasing of future audio products, no loyalty exists between me and Emotiva Audio Corporation.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jun 9, 2012 11:13:10 GMT -5
Most likely would not (understand details of a white paper). I am personally curious to read it, and while I don't have a EE degree - my engineering history + study of sound metrics vs. human hearing perception should help me "get it".
From what I see of TacT, it's clearly using the age-old concept of Fletcher-Munson equal loudness contours. The more intriguing aspect would be if a system would be able to adjust not only for what the human ear perceives as loudness as f(dB level) but if it also were able to adjust for what the system produces as a f(input conditions). From what I have read of TacT...it does the first, but not the second (unless I missed something).
My personal hypothesis on why 2 systems sound "different" even though they spec out the same is related to the second aspect. If an EQ system could actually deal with those adjustments, then that would be revolutionary. Maybe someday before I die - a system will do that (and adjust for my loss of hearing, also...).
But, I doubt the XMC will have that capability, in fact - I'm almost certain it won't. That's no slam on Emotiva...just a solid guess based on what I've read. But again - I could be wrong!
Mark
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 9, 2012 11:24:29 GMT -5
Mark, are you talking about active adjustment for changing conditions while it is playing? The Bang & Olufsen Beolab 5 does that.
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Post by paintedklown on Jun 9, 2012 11:31:00 GMT -5
I am not trying to be argumentative here, but aren't Dan, Cathy, and Lonnie all out of the country right now? I would assume that it would be Big Dan, or Lonnie to supply us with the white paper, so I am thinking that we will not hear anything from them until they all return home, take care of pressing issues, and find the time to peruse the forum a bit, to discover this thread. Perhaps after they all get back to town, we give them a day or so to get things caught up, we have someone from the forum give Emotiva a call, and post their findings here. Just a suggestion to help put an end to the back and forth, that sometimes causes hurt feelings among forum members. We all want the same thing, for Emotiva to be successful and to keep putting out high quality products at great price points. That is why we are here, to support them and provide feedback. Having a large thread of 'back and forth' discussions (with no input possible from Emotiva staff members at this time) really doesn't get us anywhere. This thread has come down to people arguing about how posts are worded. What's next, pointing out spelling and grammatical errors? I am not pointing fingers, and there have been some valid points (by both "sides") brought up, but it seems to me that some of the discussion is just arguing for the sake of it. Why can't we all just get along? ;D
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jun 9, 2012 12:06:02 GMT -5
I am not trying to be argumentative here, but aren't Dan, Cathy, and Lonnie all out of the country right now? You are correct, Dan & Cathy are in Germany, working on the European branch. Lonnie, I believe, is in China.
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Jun 9, 2012 12:22:48 GMT -5
I am not trying to be argumentative here, but aren't Dan, Cathy, and Lonnie all out of the country right now? I would assume that it would be Big Dan, or Lonnie to supply us with the white paper, so I am thinking that we will not hear anything from them until they all return home, take care of pressing issues, and find the time to peruse the forum a bit, to discover this thread. Perhaps after they all get back to town, we give them a day or so to get things caught up, we have someone from the forum give Emotiva a call, and post their findings here. Just a suggestion to help put an end to the back and forth, that sometimes causes hurt feelings among forum members. We all want the same thing, for Emotiva to be successful and to keep putting out high quality products at great price points. That is why we are here, to support them and provide feedback. Having a large thread of 'back and forth' discussions (with no input possible from Emotiva staff members at this time) really doesn't get us anywhere. This thread has come down to people arguing about how posts are worded. What's next, pointing out spelling and grammatical errors? I am not pointing fingers, and there have been some valid points (by both "sides") brought up, but it seems to me that some of the discussion is just arguing for the sake of it. Why can't we all just get along? ;D You are absolutely correct and I totally agree with you regarding the "senselessness" (my choice of words) of where this thread has gone. Original question is valid and I'm sure Emo will give an answer of some kind-either a "white paper" or another form of answer. However, to your comment of can't we all just get along. The answer is a resounding NO!!!!!! ;D I have no idea if you were just making a comment or seriously asking that question so this is certainly not directed towards you but I laugh when people say that or ask that question. At least when they are serious...... Everyone will never all get along ever........ Yes if you take the people out of the equation but no if there are people involved. Cain slew Abel, his own flesh & blood, and people have been at odds ever since!!! ;D
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Post by monkumonku on Jun 9, 2012 12:38:24 GMT -5
I am not trying to be argumentative here, but aren't Dan, Cathy, and Lonnie all out of the country right now? I would assume that it would be Big Dan, or Lonnie to supply us with the white paper, so I am thinking that we will not hear anything from them until they all return home, take care of pressing issues, and find the time to peruse the forum a bit, to discover this thread. Perhaps after they all get back to town, we give them a day or so to get things caught up, we have someone from the forum give Emotiva a call, and post their findings here. Just a suggestion to help put an end to the back and forth, that sometimes causes hurt feelings among forum members. We all want the same thing, for Emotiva to be successful and to keep putting out high quality products at great price points. That is why we are here, to support them and provide feedback. Having a large thread of 'back and forth' discussions (with no input possible from Emotiva staff members at this time) really doesn't get us anywhere. This thread has come down to people arguing about how posts are worded. What's next, pointing out spelling and grammatical errors? I am not pointing fingers, and there have been some valid points (by both "sides") brought up, but it seems to me that some of the discussion is just arguing for the sake of it. Why can't we all just get along? ;D You are absolutely correct and I totally agree with you regarding the "senselessness" (my choice of words) of where this thread has gone. Original question is valid and I'm sure Emo will give an answer of some kind-either a "white paper" or another form of answer. However, to your comment of can't we all just get along. The answer is a resounding NO!!!!!! ;D I have no idea if you were just making a comment or seriously asking that question so this is certainly not directed towards you but I laugh when people say that or ask that question. At least when they are serious...... Everyone will never all get along ever........ Yes if you take the people out of the equation but no if there are people involved. Cain slew Abel, his own flesh & blood, and people have been at odds ever since!!! ;D Amen, brother! ;D Okay, now let's get back to business. What is the best speaker you can buy? ;D
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 9, 2012 12:40:23 GMT -5
Amen, brother! ;D Okay, now let's get back to business. What is the best speaker you can buy? ;D MBL 101e Radialstrahler X-Treme
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Post by paintedklown on Jun 9, 2012 12:43:37 GMT -5
I am not trying to be argumentative here, but aren't Dan, Cathy, and Lonnie all out of the country right now? I would assume that it would be Big Dan, or Lonnie to supply us with the white paper, so I am thinking that we will not hear anything from them until they all return home, take care of pressing issues, and find the time to peruse the forum a bit, to discover this thread. Perhaps after they all get back to town, we give them a day or so to get things caught up, we have someone from the forum give Emotiva a call, and post their findings here. Just a suggestion to help put an end to the back and forth, that sometimes causes hurt feelings among forum members. We all want the same thing, for Emotiva to be successful and to keep putting out high quality products at great price points. That is why we are here, to support them and provide feedback. Having a large thread of 'back and forth' discussions (with no input possible from Emotiva staff members at this time) really doesn't get us anywhere. This thread has come down to people arguing about how posts are worded. What's next, pointing out spelling and grammatical errors? I am not pointing fingers, and there have been some valid points (by both "sides") brought up, but it seems to me that some of the discussion is just arguing for the sake of it. Why can't we all just get along? ;D You are absolutely correct and I totally agree with you regarding the "senselessness" (my choice of words) of where this thread has gone. Original question is valid and I'm sure Emo will give an answer of some kind-either a "white paper" or another form of answer. However, to your comment of can't we all just get along. The answer is a resounding NO!!!!!! ;D I have no idea if you were just making a comment or seriously asking that question so this is certainly not directed towards you but I laugh when people say that or ask that question. At least when they are serious...... Everyone will never all get along ever........ Yes if you take the people out of the equation but no if there are people involved. Cain slew Abel, his own flesh & blood, and people have been at odds ever since!!! ;D HAHHAHA! Nah, I said it in jest to lighten the mood a bit. I didn't want to sound like I was trying to pick a fight or calling anyone out, as those were not my intentions. I was just watching this thread grow, and become more "touchy" as it went along, and I felt that a different perspective might be helpful.
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Post by Tip on Jun 9, 2012 12:49:38 GMT -5
From what I see of TacT, it's clearly using the age-old concept of Fletcher-Munson equal loudness contours. The more intriguing aspect would be if a system would be able to adjust not only for what the human ear perceives as loudness as f(dB level) but if it also were able to adjust for what the system produces as a f(input conditions). From what I have read of TacT...it does the first, but not the second (unless I missed something). TacT DRC allows the user to create the equal loudness contours in the group of eight "dynamic" target curves that belong to the "reference" target curve. The user can choose to create the dynamic target curves according to the Fletcher-Munson contours, create custom dynamic target curves, or only use the reference target curve without the dynamic target curves (i.e. disable DRC.) More recent research has stated that the "age-old" Fletcher-Munson contours are incorrect. My personal opinion is that too much is being made of DRC (the dynamic target curves) unless you need to listen at different loudness levels because you don't want to disturb someone. Plus the loudness of what you hear depends on the loudness, or the compression factor, of the source material (e.g. CD vs. DVD-A.) The more significant feature is having a customizable reference target curve, which is the feature that really differentiates the TacT RCS from all the others.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jun 9, 2012 13:55:50 GMT -5
How DRC works?
Dynamic Room Correction (DRC) utilizes very sophisticated algorithms and processing circuitry to solve this problem. The DRC system is based on one reference target curve and eight additional target curves called “dynamic target curves”. The reference target curve is used to perform basic reference room correction. Dynamic target curves are labeled 0, -6, -12, -18, -24, -30, -36 and –42 dB and are combined with the reference target curve to obtain the final “dynamic” target curve used to calculate corrected room filters in real time.
For example, if the master level reads –10.3 dB the system will use the –6 dB and the –12 dB dynamic target curves and by interpolation will calculate a target curve corresponding to –10.3 dB. After that, the system will combine the 10.3 dB target curve with the reference curve to obtain the final target curve that is then used to calculate the correction filters. New correction filters are loaded into the signal path as the music is playing and the new correction takes effect immediately. The same process repeats again for any new master level setting.
White Paper please. There are a lot more to it than this. And quite likely, Emo has added a few new & interesting twists that will be unique to the XMC-1 ;D
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jun 9, 2012 14:01:52 GMT -5
How fast are responses? Another major advantage of DRC technology is simplification: the elimination of the correction filters calculation and programming step. If you are a currentTact user you are aware that after the room measurement is completed and a target curve selected, you must go through a few steps to program your RCS device with appropriate correction filters before being able to fully employ the new correction. WithTact’s new DRC technology, when you make a change to the target curve or select a new one, you simply click on the GUI ‘Calculate’ button to instantly calculate and engage new correction filters. This new automation allows you to make small adjustments while you are listening to your favorite tracks and to instantly hear the changes you make. In this way you can tune your system’s sound down to the smallest level of detail effortlessly.
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