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Post by Porscheguy on Jun 9, 2012 14:11:06 GMT -5
White Paper please. There are a lot more to it than this. And quite likely, Emo has added a few new & interesting twists that will be unique to the XMC-1 ;D There is a twist on it and its proprietary and their intellectual property. And Emotiva will not be sharing that with you on some white paper. Trust me. Tell me, have you read the white papers on all the electronics you have bought? Are you an EE or AE?
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Post by Porscheguy on Jun 9, 2012 14:27:54 GMT -5
Here you go Jamrock, a white paper from NAD so you can practice.. :-) I expect you to read and explain it to all of us because I have no idea what it says, it's too technical for us and has nothing to do whether or not it sounds good or not. We're waiting.... I demand it!! :-) freepdfhosting.com/daf84b0e52.pdf
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jun 9, 2012 14:28:05 GMT -5
First and foremost, I'm not an E.E or A.E. 2nd: The manufacturers of my other components did not offer a white paper 3rd: I don't trust you. You seem to have a hidden agenda. 4th: Why is it that you personally feel that if Dan offers us the TacT white paper, that we/I have no right or need to ask for it?
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Post by Porscheguy on Jun 9, 2012 14:47:23 GMT -5
First and foremost, I'm not an E.E or A.E. 2nd: The manufacturers of my other components did not offer a white paper 3rd: I don't trust you. You seem to have a hidden agenda. 4th: Why is it that you personally feel that if Dan offers us the TacT white paper, that we/I have no right or need to ask for it? No Jammy, you demanded to see the white paper. So here's one. Explain it to me/us and tell me by reading it you know that the XMC-1 will sound great. I read it and it gave no clue as to the M2 sonic merits.... No hidden agenda, I just need some "splainin" from you. You do understand it, right?
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jun 9, 2012 15:00:07 GMT -5
I'm interested in the TacT white paper from Emotiva only. I can find white papers from other manufacturers if I want to. And in fact, I have read many of them (Sunfire, Velodyne, Definitive Technology, Meridian. Just to name a few. I read what I'm interested in. I don't accept assignments from anyone unless there is an agreed upon price ;D Your behavior has been very uncharacteristically juvenile. But that's your bag. Nevertheless, I would still like an answer to question/item #4. Try to keep it civil as there is still some usefulness to this thread and I don't want to see it get locked ;D
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jun 9, 2012 15:00:17 GMT -5
Dave...to your question ("Mark, are you talking about active adjustment for changing conditions while it is playing? The Bang & Olufsen Beolab 5 does that.")
I'll look into the B&O to see if that's what I meant or not (regarding my point #2). (I never liked B&O sound to date, so I have not looked at that product...)
In the meanwhile - FYI, what I meant re. point #2 was this...take a given driver, give it an input signal. It will produce a given output, and we can measure how well the output matches the input. This is the traditional frequency response measurement, and we quote whether or not the output frequency matched the input within +/- "x" dB.
Now, take that driver, have it play a single frequency with an input volume of "x", then "0.5x", then "2x", then "x" again...all milliseconds apart...measure its frequency response for each input volume. I would be willing to bet, based solely on hysterisis of materials that comprise the driver + the physics that drive response time of the driver, that the initial comparison for frequency response at input volume "x" would be different than the final comparison, and that the data for the 0.5x and 2x would also be different.
Said another way, the dynamic response (having varying input levels) would differ (perhaps dramatically) from the static. And, if we add in the complexity of a single driver producing, dynamically, a range of frequencies - things get...well, more complicated.
And I don't know about you guys, but the music I listen to is very dynamic - not static (1 frequency, at 1 level...).
Yet, as I understand it, all room correction systems to date only put out a single input level and measure a single output response and it's based on a static (steady state) input condition - not a dynamic (non-steady state) input condition. And, it seems to me that this matters - quite a bit.
So, that's what I meant by my second point. Maybe somebody is offering such a system now...if so, I've not heard of it. Has anyone else or is this what the B&O is doing?
To tip's point...yes, from what I understand - the Fletcher-Munson curves themselves are inaccurate based on more recent findings. That's why I said TacT was based on the age old "concept" of F-M. The "concept" is still true...human hearing is more sensitive in the midrange than at the low's/high's, and our sensitivity varies w/the dB level presented. The specific curves are different, but the concept still holds. (And, then there's the point that any adjustment curve represents a population average and not "me", and "me" includes too many years of high dB exposure from loud music, mowing the lawn w/o hearing protection, etc...)
Mark
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Post by Porscheguy on Jun 9, 2012 15:10:27 GMT -5
I'm interested in the TacT white paper from Emotiva only. I can find white papers from other manufacturers if I want to. And in fact, I have read many of them (Sunfire, Velodyne, Definitive Technology, Meridian. Just to name a few. I read what I'm interested in. I don't accept assignments from anyone unless there is an agreed upon price ;D Your behavior has been very uncharacteristically juvenile. But that's your bag. Nevertheless, I would still like an answer to question/item #4. Try to keep it civil as there is still some usefulness to this thread and I don't want to see it get locked ;D I think I'm being very civil. I only asked if you understood what was even on a white paper. Quite frankly and respectfully, I don't think you do. Most people don't. But you have in several posts asked over and again for the TACT white paper so you can "see for yourself" its operating principal and its worthiness as a DRC tool. But the reality is you have no idea how to read a white paper and digest its complexities to truly know what separates it from Audessy or any other DRC. The truth is you just want to see it "just because".... I wouldn't even mind if the piece had been out for many months but it hasn't even come out yet..
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jun 9, 2012 15:12:53 GMT -5
I have also read where it was stated that the original Fletcher - Munson curves were incorrect and that newer measurements were better. However, the newer measurements were too subtle to make a real difference in what is heard. However, TacT has been refined from the original development model, and the now the user can modify the F-M curves to make them more or less aggressive. The possibilities with this RCS seems endless. I feel pretty certain that the Emo version of F-M will be adjustable. Lonnie is a Master Tweaker and will demand nothing less ;D
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jun 9, 2012 15:30:33 GMT -5
I'm interested in the TacT white paper from Emotiva only. I can find white papers from other manufacturers if I want to. And in fact, I have read many of them (Sunfire, Velodyne, Definitive Technology, Meridian. Just to name a few. I read what I'm interested in. I don't accept assignments from anyone unless there is an agreed upon price ;D Your behavior has been very uncharacteristically juvenile. But that's your bag. Nevertheless, I would still like an answer to question/item #4. Try to keep it civil as there is still some usefulness to this thread and I don't want to see it get locked ;D I think I'm being very civil. I only asked if you understood what was even on a white paper. Quite frankly and respectfully, I don't think you do. Most people don't. But you have in several posts asked over and again for the TACT white paper so you can "see for yourself" its operating principal and its worthiness as a DRC tool. But the reality is you have no idea who to read a white paper and digest its complexities to truly know what separates it from Audessy or any other DRC. The truth is you just want to see it "just because".... I wouldn't even mind if the piece had been out for many months but it hasn't even come out yet.. Pure, unadulterated drivel. It is now evident that you and I have nothing of worth to exchange on this subject. Unless you can give us/me the courtesy of an intelligent response to question/item #4. In fact, please don't bother to respond. I have better uses for my brain cells. Klinemj seems to be onto something of sublime interest. Best regards and be well
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Post by monkumonku on Jun 9, 2012 15:34:14 GMT -5
Amen, brother! ;D Okay, now let's get back to business. What is the best speaker you can buy? ;D MBL 101e Radialstrahler X-Treme How do they compare to Bose?
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Jun 9, 2012 15:41:45 GMT -5
Nothing personal, but whether you chose the MBLs or the Bose, I would still want to see a white paper to be thoroughly convinced!!! ;D
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jun 9, 2012 15:51:09 GMT -5
Nothing personal, but whether you chose the MBLs or the Bose, I would still want to see a white paper to be thoroughly convinced!!! ;D Precious! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Porscheguy on Jun 9, 2012 16:38:25 GMT -5
I think I'm being very civil. I only asked if you understood what was even on a white paper. Quite frankly and respectfully, I don't think you do. Most people don't. But you have in several posts asked over and again for the TACT white paper so you can "see for yourself" its operating principal and its worthiness as a DRC tool. But the reality is you have no idea who to read a white paper and digest its complexities to truly know what separates it from Audessy or any other DRC. The truth is you just want to see it "just because".... I wouldn't even mind if the piece had been out for many months but it hasn't even come out yet.. Pure, unadulterated drivel. It is now evident that you and I have nothing of worth to exchange on this subject. Unless you can give us/me the courtesy of an intelligent response to question/item #4. In fact, please don't bother to respond. I have better uses for my brain cells. Klinemj seems to be onto something of sublime interest. Best regards and be well Don't be mad at me. You stormed into this thread like hell on wheels demanding to see this white paper (you have deleted that post) and you're mad because I called you out for not even knowing how to read a white paper. You made yourself look foolish. I didn't..
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Pauly
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Post by Pauly on Jun 9, 2012 16:52:00 GMT -5
Damn, I'm out of popcorn!
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Post by Topend on Jun 9, 2012 17:11:58 GMT -5
I found the link to the NAD M2 a good read. It makes a lot of sense to keep the signal digital until just before the speaker posts.
There were parts of the document that tested my ability to understand but on the whole I now know how they came about designing the M2, the basics on how it functions and the advantages with this design over a typical analog amp.
The only thing I don't know is why they were so hell bent on making a Class D work and the advantage of Class D in it's own right. I'm guessing efficiency but I can google this for more.
Now I never expected a white paper to sell a product but this document did just that. I'm interested. If only I could find something to fault my Emo amps on. Trouble is my Emo amps are the best part of my system so will not get replaced. So I will not be buying an M2, but I will look up their price out of interest only.
Dave.
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Jun 9, 2012 17:25:13 GMT -5
Damn, I'm out of popcorn! Here try some of mine. It's great and this looks like it's going to be a long movie!!!!! ;D
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jun 9, 2012 17:42:52 GMT -5
Pure, unadulterated drivel. It is now evident that you and I have nothing of worth to exchange on this subject. Unless you can give us/me the courtesy of an intelligent response to question/item #4. In fact, please don't bother to respond. I have better uses for my brain cells. Klinemj seems to be onto something of sublime interest. Best regards and be well Don't be mad at me. You stormed into this thread like hell on wheels demanding to see this white paper (you have deleted that post) and you're mad because I called you out for not even knowing how to read a white paper. You made yourself look foolish. I didn't.. Like I begged of you. Please move on. Your posts have now degenerated to useless drivel. You are making up straw men. I have already corrected my post #2 and I apologized to Dan & Lonnie. I mistakenly wrote You will.. instead of Will you. If I offended anybody it is Dan & Lonnie. They can take whatever action deemed warranted and I will live with the consequences. I'm human and subject to error. And I know that even inadvertent errors have consequences. But why is it your personal crusade? Ever since your Sonos subwoffer episode you have become totally unlistenable and hypocritical. Enough. To my fellow forum members and to the moderators. Please accept my apology for these unfortunate set of exchanges. I promise that I will have no further exchanges on this subject with this Porscheguy character. You all deserve better
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jun 9, 2012 18:10:18 GMT -5
Why the computer? With a DRC system, a computer is utilized only for its’ graphical user interface (GUI) and serves no other purpose. Now, all calculations are performed inside the DRC processor. Target curves, measurements and other correction parameters are housed inside DRC flash memory. This approach will ultimately allowTact to offer other GUI devices-- freeing end users from any dependence on PCs to set-up or control theirTact systems. Oh happy days. Am I impressed and salivating or what?
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Pauly
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Post by Pauly on Jun 9, 2012 18:36:34 GMT -5
Damn, I'm out of popcorn! Here try some of mine. It's great and this looks like it's going to be a long movie!!!!! ;D Nice, thanks bud! You can always count on a fellow vet .
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 9, 2012 18:51:27 GMT -5
Way back a few posts, Mark wrote: "In the meanwhile - FYI, what I meant re. point #2 was this...take a given driver, give it an input signal. It will produce a given output, and we can measure how well the output matches the input. This is the traditional frequency response measurement, and we quote whether or not the output frequency matched the input within +/- "x" dB. Now, take that driver, have it play a single frequency with an input volume of "x", then "0.5x", then "2x", then "x" again...all milliseconds apart...measure its frequency response for each input volume. I would be willing to bet, based solely on hysteresis of materials that comprise the driver + the physics that drive response time of the driver, that the initial comparison for frequency response at input volume "x" would be different than the final comparison, and that the data for the 0.5x and 2x would also be different. Said another way, the dynamic response (having varying input levels) would differ (perhaps dramatically) from the static. And, if we add in the complexity of a single driver producing, dynamically, a range of frequencies - things get...well, more complicated." You're talking about impulse response and transient response, and decay time due to material inertia. IN GEBNERAL, the FR doesn't change so much as distortion is added due to impulses that are too rapid for the loudspeaker to fully "recover" between pulses. So you'd see more things like higher harmonic distortion and TID (inter-modulation distortion) and likely lower dbSPL of successive pulses, especially with a typical dynamic cone driver like a woofer. Here's a White Paper on TIM to help you understand it. community.klipsch.com/forums/storage/3/1107724/01162904.pdf
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