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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 9:51:53 GMT -5
I do not read audio magazines for reviews as much as I use to. What I noticed was reviews of brand X was directly proportional to brand X's consistent adverting in that magazine. Many times if there is criticism of brand X, the author general will sum up with "despite the flaw... It's still a value" Now, if brand Y gets a great review why wouldn't they target their advertising in that publication?!
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Post by craigl59 on Sept 28, 2018 10:48:30 GMT -5
That's 1978... a while ago...what do you think those speakers would cost now brand new esslabsusa.com/speakers/The modern equivalent is $4500 a pair. Went onto the site and was impressed by the fact that ESS sells all replacement drivers as well as the completed speakers. This shows they have an ongoing clientele and are supporting their product for a long time. Remember drooling when these first came out and wonder how they compare with state of the art today.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 28, 2018 11:03:57 GMT -5
Went onto the site and was impressed by the fact that ESS sells all replacement drivers as well as the completed speakers. This shows they have an ongoing clientele and are supporting their product for a long time. Remember drooling when these first came out and wonder how they compare with state of the art today.
I'm tempted to find out...
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Post by Bonzo on Sept 28, 2018 11:08:39 GMT -5
Never heard of them or seen them before. They certainly look interesting. I'd love to hear them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 12:03:57 GMT -5
DYohn, I heard those ESS AMT1b before, my neighbor bought a pair off ebay. They sounded nice! His step son ended up with them and blew 'em using a cheap receiver.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 28, 2018 13:12:12 GMT -5
The day I had to give up my AMT's due to a divorce was a sad day indeed. They are high efficiency and handle big power. I used to drive them using my Phase Linear 400. My normal listening level on the preamp was about "1" on the volume knob, but cranking them to "8" was like being at a live rock concert. And the clarity of the Air Motion Transformer is astounding - like Magnaplaner midrange, only reaching beyond audibility. The weakness of the system is the strange shaped design and the fact that the bottom end relies on a 12" passive radiator, which makes the bass have a lot of group delay overhang. But with those speakers there was no such thing as listener fatigue... at least not for me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 13:15:14 GMT -5
First I based my purchase of my B&W's on sound, then design both inside, crossover, inside framing and design of the cabinet and the speaker cabinet itself. Mid-range and low end are my speaker choices and how the speaker was made and with what material. Those questions I have asked of many speaker auditions. I LOVE B&W speakers...My choice. Everyone has a favorite. Price has no concern to me in my initial search for the perfect sound..for that magic. In my reading Booms post I wonder if the underlying comment perhaps the elephant in the room...people are crazy to spend more than 2k for speakers. That's is my opinion and and in no way am undermining Boom. I respect his reviews and I enjoy his posts very much. Money is relative...if one has it they spend it. If we are discussing the cost of speakers why not the cost of EMOTIVA anticipated new RMC-1 @. $5,000😕 IMO I enjoy my 7.1 processor at less than a third of the price. There are many good processors out there for a lot less money...BUT if you have the money then why not? Are $10,000 speakers worth it? Let me say this and I forgot to mention another important factor "resale value" I do not hear to many people address this "resale value" issue. I purchased my first pair of B&W speaker (804S) for $4000.00.I had them for 9 years...pristine condition, orginal boxes and manuals still intact. I sold them for $2400.00. I then purchased my 803D2's. The new D3's were coming out. I was able to secure a purchase price of $7000.00. Minus my $2400.00 from my 804S speaker my out of pocket expense was $4600.00 The art of the deal! And yes they sound MAGNIFICENT, and I do NOT FEEL a 2-4k speaker could come close to the sound quality or craftsmanship of B&W products made in the UK 🇬🇧 This is a good example for the proposed question I like those B&W a lot.,Would I spend the money for them at retail price? probably not. But they are very nice to listen to. Construction is top notch. hats off, bluemeanies, enjoy. (btw, I saw an after-market active xover for the D2 @ $2400 and the reviews were very high)
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Post by donh50 on Sept 28, 2018 17:12:40 GMT -5
I truly believe people buy 50k speakers not for how they sound but just because they are 50k. You can argue all you want about it but there is some truth about it. I have read reviews and pics of stereo systems that you can definitely tell they are just for looks. I have also read reviews of speakers in the 2k range outperforming speakers in 20k range like the the speakers I currently own. Some do, some don't. Back when I worked for some dealers (as a tech, not a sales guy) we did have the occasional customer who just wanted the best-looking, most-expensive speaker we had and could seemingly care less about sound. The ones I really bit my lip over were the ones who convinced themselves that price was the main determination of quality and would convince themselves the more expensive speaker sounded better and was worth the price when objective measurements and listening tests said no... There's a reason they usually kept me in the back room. I have expensive speakers now, though got a great deal on them as B-stock models, that have been compared to and defeated in DBTs speakers well over 2x their retail price. So equal sound for half the price, is that value even if they are expensive? In my mind "value" is what you, your ears, and your wallet decide. And maybe your significant other. FWIW, I came from Magnepan MG-IIIa's ca. 1988 that I was using until about a year ago, and had Maggies starting in 1979 though rolled through a few others along the way. I expected to end up with new Maggies or maybe Roger Sanders' ESLs (he lives not too far from me) but the Revel's sounded great and I got a great deal. I've been very happy with them. Value? Dunno', they cost me less than the 20.7's or Sanders ESLs I was looking at, but still way more than a new pair of 3.7's would have cost. But these will be my last before retirement (and can't afford pricey new toys after that) so were a good value to me. I never expected to afford top-of-the-line anything these days, with many models in the $100k+ range (I have only heard a few of those; some were impressive, others meh...)
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Post by bluemeanies on Sept 28, 2018 18:02:16 GMT -5
First I based my purchase of my B&W's on sound, then design both inside, crossover, inside framing and design of the cabinet and the speaker cabinet itself. Mid-range and low end are my speaker choices and how the speaker was made and with what material. Those questions I have asked of many speaker auditions. I LOVE B&W speakers...My choice. Everyone has a favorite. Price has no concern to me in my initial search for the perfect sound..for that magic. In my reading Booms post I wonder if the underlying comment perhaps the elephant in the room...people are crazy to spend more than 2k for speakers. That's is my opinion and and in no way am undermining Boom. I respect his reviews and I enjoy his posts very much. Money is relative...if one has it they spend it. If we are discussing the cost of speakers why not the cost of EMOTIVA anticipated new RMC-1 @. $5,000😕 IMO I enjoy my 7.1 processor at less than a third of the price. There are many good processors out there for a lot less money...BUT if you have the money then why not? Are $10,000 speakers worth it? Let me say this and I forgot to mention another important factor "resale value" I do not hear to many people address this "resale value" issue. I purchased my first pair of B&W speaker (804S) for $4000.00.I had them for 9 years...pristine condition, orginal boxes and manuals still intact. I sold them for $2400.00. I then purchased my 803D2's. The new D3's were coming out. I was able to secure a purchase price of $7000.00. Minus my $2400.00 from my 804S speaker my out of pocket expense was $4600.00 The art of the deal! And yes they sound MAGNIFICENT, and I do NOT FEEL a 2-4k speaker could come close to the sound quality or craftsmanship of B&W products made in the UK 🇬🇧 This is a good example for the proposed question I like those B&W a lot.,Would I spend the money for them at retail price? probably not. But they are very nice to listen to. Construction is top notch. hats off, bluemeanies, enjoy. (btw, I saw an after-market active xover for the D2 @ $2400 and the reviews were very high) Texzick...THANK YOU!! I was fortunate...financially at the time I purchased the 804S speakers with surrounds and center channel for my HT. I am not financially wealthy. I am a blue collar worker who has struggled like many other people in the working ant 🐜 army of laborers. However, after I exploited myself to the good times in my youth I finally woke up at the age of 55. Sad really. I do believe that if I had not thought of the GOOD TIMES when I was younger I would be better off now, BUT I am not WHINING. I have a good life, wife, kids and grandchildren. I always did not make the right moves. I have friends that are millionaires! Of course they do not talk about it but they are good friends of mine that I would do anything. It's not the money...it's the friendship. You know how valued you are as a friend by the time that person spends with you NOT what they do for you. I digress...apologies. I Loved B&W! WHY? Silly reason really...I seen that ABBEY ROAD STUDIOS userd B&W speakers and I am still, after all of these years a big BEATLES fan and Pink Floyd fan. The days of wine and roses are over and I am glad b/c I am more focused...my hearing is more focused. Today I listen mostly to Jazz and Blues and my all tube 2channel makes my 803's sing. LIVE AT BLUES HOUSE 😂 There are as BOOM pointed out speakers that are worth the 2k and sound sublime but in my experience a full range speaker cost more before there is more put into it both physically and mentally. It's not easy to build the perfect speaker or to record the perfect recording. Thank you for your kind remarks...blue
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Post by craigl59 on Sept 28, 2018 18:02:22 GMT -5
Utilizing 6 loudspeakers rather than 2 can deliver top tier performance comparable to systems that utilize a pair of VERY pricey stereo speakers. That’s out the window if ones perception (subjectively) means two channel stereo is the only way to run. When I got into surround sound, music remained the number one priority despite the fact that for me it needed to be one system that could do it all. Bill I'm part of the "out the window" crowd as I listen 90% to music and almost all of that is stereo. Get much better soundstage on stereo feeds than 5.1 ones. Fortunately the XMC-1 allow you to shift between reference stereo mode and multi-channel with ease. Shift back and forth and always think stereo sounds much better for music. Am upgrading my LR speakers next month to match a stereo listening room that I spend 6 months a year at and never feel a longing for 5.1 (or 7.1). So, for me, 6 speakers are not better than 2 much better ones.
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Post by geeqner on Oct 2, 2018 13:44:56 GMT -5
Are we talking $2,000 Per Speaker, or for a Set?
I have a variety of points to make on this topic:
I find that "GOOD" Speakers are a matter of "what have you been listening to up until now"? If you had been using a "cheapo" set of components and speakers that cost $150 at Wal-Mart when you bought them 20 years ago, a set of $300 speakers may "rock your World". If you had worked your way up to almost anything non-mass market in the $500 and up range; it will take MORE to impress you.
My experience tells me that the SPEAKERS are the Weakest / MOST important "link in the chain" of ANY System Component - -Good-to-Great Speakers, even when driven with modest components, will usually sound DECENT -The best components in the world, if connected to crappy speakers (nobody in their right mind would do this) will sound crappy / marginal at best
I find that GOOD speakers are like good wine: Depending on your ears and more often than not, depending on your ability to provide an optimized environment (LISTENING ROOM) in which to install them - most of us will hit the "Point of Diminishing Returns" at a different level. -Some wine enthusiasts have VERY discriminating palettes, and can appreciate the difference between a $1000 and $5000 Vintage (but that difference, if there IS one, will be small) -Some cannot tell the difference between a good 5-buck bottle and a 50-dollar bottle -As for ME, anything over $100 is wasted on me, but I do like a good 20-30 buck bottle once in a while (if I can find it on Sale = BONUS!)
I've seen and heard some AWFULLY high-end stuff - some truly impressed my "semi-trained" ears / some did not.
At the High-End to ULTRA-High-End you essentially have two "camps": -Those who are catering to those who buy for "bragging rights" - where the more costly, the better, regardless of performance -Those who are catering to those who want / demand "the ultimate" in Performance / Specifications
I find that the Listening Room, and the limitations that it imposes, are nearly just as important as the speakers themselves. A $10K set of speakers BELONGS in an acoustically-optimized Listening Room in order to reap their full benefit. If you have to place them in the corner behind the soft-cushioned armchair that goes down to the floor - you may be better-off with bookshelves on stands
Then, there are some speakers that incorporate high value and "Punch above their Weight Class"
Are you CONFUSED yet? I know that I am now. Guess I'll just have to live with good enough and ENJOY the music!
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Post by brubacca on Oct 2, 2018 14:45:43 GMT -5
I selected 1k and below. (Really I mean 1,200 and below). I think there is a lot of value there. Over the past few years the technology trickle down makes this a very good place to be. Maybe stretching to 2k for a pair of floorstanders is prudent, but best value at 1k.
Funny enough of the 3 pairs of speakers I own only one falls below the 1k threshold. They sound the most enjoyable to me and the others are in the basement unused.
IMHO - Buy the best source you can and work down to the speakers. The speakers are the most personal mad have the most interaction with the room so buy carefully.
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 2, 2018 15:20:58 GMT -5
Are we talking $2,000 Per Speaker, or for a Set? Pair. ...Good-to-Great Speakers, even when driven with modest components, will usually sound DECENT -The best components in the world, if connected to crappy speakers (nobody in their right mind would do this)... You might be surprised... ...most of us will hit the "Point of Diminishing Returns" at a different level. Although probably true, the poll numbers seem to argue differently... ...I find that the Listening Room, and the limitations that it imposes, are nearly just as important as the speakers themselves. Amen, brudda! ...Then, there are some speakers that incorporate high value and "Punch above their Weight Class" THOSE are the ones we all look for! ...Guess I'll just have to live with good enough and ENJOY the music! Excellent advice, always.
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Post by geeqner on Oct 2, 2018 16:00:44 GMT -5
...most of us will hit the "Point of Diminishing Returns" at a different level. Although probably true, the poll numbers seem to argue differently... THAT, my friend, would in most likelihood depend upon WHERE you ask the question (and ones background) I think that it can be argued in relative safety that most of us on this forum are here because most of us have the money for something "Decent" with good VALUE. If many of us were able to justify $10K speakers - odds are that we would probably be perusing different forums... Ask that same question on the B&W forum and my guess is that the answer will tend a bit higher than it is here. Ask that same question on the Costco website and the answer will tend significantly lower than it is here I grew up in a small town in East Central Wisconsin - we had no "High-End" Audio shops anywhere near us (one to 3 in Milwaukee - otherwise, Chicago to see anything truly "high-end") - My set of Zenith Allegro 3000 (2-Way Bass Reflex with 10" woofers and a good horn-tweeter / 25 Watts) sounded pretty darned SWEET when I was 14 - When I went to College in Milwaukee and window-shopped at a high-end store or two, even their low-end stuff was pretty darned AWESOME by comparison (and I do not use that term loosely) - My education in Engineering (EE Background) and work with some Sound System design gave me a good fundamental understanding of What works vs. What's B.S. (most of the time )
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