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Post by moovtune on Apr 29, 2010 12:22:51 GMT -5
Maybe someone with a better memory than mine can recall this, but I thought Lonnie recently posted that many BD Players are defaulted to down mix LPCM to 2 channels before sending it on to the UMC-1. Might this be the problem that some of you are encountering? I also was trying to remember the discussion for "fixing" LPCM was to use PLIIx so that your post processing setting were active. My mind is a bit fuzzy at the moment... took my pain meds a while ago. Have you tried switching between the other modes (stereo, direct, etc) to see what the impact was. One last thought, I have seen some BD discs with 5.1 LPCM that have menu settings for picking between 5.1 and 2.0 output. You might check what your disc is set to use. Maybe Lonnie, or someone with a clear mind, can chime in to clarify this issue. ;D Using PLIIx or any other post processing is definitely not a solution. LPCM tracks are uncompressed and lossless, playing them through PLIIx totally negates that by processing the crap out of the signal. Your not going to get the same sound quality. Direct on the other hand isn't an option because AFAIK you loose the UMC's bass management and EQ features. What we need is a "MULTI PCM" mode added specifically for this, that will play in 5.1 with bass management and EQ, but without all of the post processing you get with PLIIx or DSP modes. saginawjuggalo, That's weird that deep color was default to on with your UMC, mine was default to off with the v6 FW. BTW, I noticed your name, I'm from Midland! I don't agree with this. PLIIx, if properly implemented in the DSP chip, should have minimal effect on a 5.1 signal, affecting mainly the surround channels if you have a 7.1 setup. If you have a 5.1 system and apply PLIIx to a 5.1 signal, bitstream or PCM, you shouldn't hear much difference as you apply it or remove it from the signal. If you do, something is wrong with the implementation. |
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Post by nickwin on Apr 29, 2010 12:26:24 GMT -5
That may be correct in theory, but I HAVE noticed a significant difference in SQ when switching between PLII and lossless soundtracks, and even between PLII and and regular Dolby 5.1 and DTS with all of the AVR's I have previously owned. Its possible that PLII was not properly implemented on those AVR's, but from what I have heard, PLIIx doesn't sound all that great on the UMC either.
Doesn't PLIIx add some degree of post processing even when your applying it to a 5.1 source? Maybe "minimal effect" to one person is unacceptable to another...
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Post by marius on Apr 29, 2010 12:36:30 GMT -5
PLIIx by default should only mess with the surrounds on a 5.1 source.....
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Post by jmilton on Apr 29, 2010 12:51:55 GMT -5
PLIIx by default should only mess with the surrounds on a 5.1 source..... Pro logic is a matrix for stereo(2) into 5.1 DD is discrete 5.1 channels. Taking a DD 5.1 and running it into PLII is a big downgrade in SQ. |
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Post by marius on Apr 29, 2010 12:55:31 GMT -5
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Post by jmilton on Apr 29, 2010 12:58:26 GMT -5
PLIIx upmixes 5.1 into 6.1 or 7.1
The additional channels are still not discrete.
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Post by nickwin on Apr 29, 2010 12:58:37 GMT -5
I was never happy with how PLII PLIIx sounded with any of the 3 Denon AVR's I've owned
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Post by marius on Apr 29, 2010 13:04:02 GMT -5
Are you sure you had it set to PLIIx Movie mode? All processors I owned in the past (yamaha & pioneer elite), the difference between PLIIx and non-PLIIx were almost unnoticeable on 5.1 source if you unplug the rear two speakers (in a 7.1 setup).
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Post by moovtune on Apr 29, 2010 14:10:05 GMT -5
Are you sure you had it set to PLIIx Movie mode? All processors I owned in the past (yamaha & pioneer elite), the difference between PLIIx and non-PLIIx were almost unnoticeable on 5.1 source if you unplug the rear two speakers (in a 7.1 setup). Exactly what I was going to ask. The "movie" mode should have minimal effect on anything but surrounds on a 5.1 signal, whether bitstream DD or a PCM. The "music" mode though allows three other adjustments which can greatly effect the sound. Applying it ("movie" mode) to a 2.0 signal will also have more of an effect than to a 5.1. |
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Post by nickwin on Apr 29, 2010 14:57:44 GMT -5
This is a quote from Lonnie in another thread about why some people's UMC's are showing PLII when they put it in PLIIx mode. "If you have a 5.1 setup, then it will only show PLII, but if you have a 7.1, then you get PLIIx.
Hope this helps.  "If I understand this correctly, if have a 5.1 setup, the UMC will use PLII instead of PLIIx. If that is the case, would using PLII on a Multi PCM soundtrack also not degrade the sound quality? |
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Post by billmac on Apr 29, 2010 15:45:18 GMT -5
I agree using PLIIx is not a solution and I had the same issues with LPCM tracks with my Panasonic BD30. LPCM would only play in 2.0 and all the settings with both the UMC-1 and BD30 were triple checked and correct. The odd thing was when I played a DD+ track from a HD/DVD with my Toshiba A2 I got PCM Multi to show on the UMC-1s display. Lonnie is aware of this issue as it was discussed when the UMC-1 was first released. I believe in direct for LPCM you have bass management but no EQ features. It has been awhile since I had the UMC-1 so I might be incorrect. I agree with this as well and hopefully Emotiva is working on a solution for this issue. Bill |
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Post by nickwin on Apr 29, 2010 16:50:06 GMT -5
Wow, I just had and extremely disappointing experience with Emotiva Tech support.  I'm not going to drop any names, but they guy I was talking to was not only rude, and utterly unhelpful, but he didn't seem too knowledgeable about the things an AV tech should be knowledgeable about. I just called to get Emotivas take on what the best way to handle a Multi PCM signal, and before I could even finish my question, he blurted in with "Oh that's just crap". I asked him what he meant and he said "Multi PCM just sounds terrible.... its a crap format". He then proceeded to tell me about these "new" codex's Dolby TruHD and DTS MA that I should be using instead of Multi PCM. I explained to him that I am aware of those codex's, but some Blurays are encoded in PCM, not TruHD or MA, and it was obvious that he didn't believe me. I told him that PCM is lossless and uncompressed, and that IMO can sound great, and he just responded with "wow, agree to disagree, they always sound like crap to me, the bitrate is super low". Now I'm not an expert, but isn't the bitrate of Multi PCM just as high as Dolby TruHD? The BluRays that I have heard (3:10 to Yuma and Kill Bill) in Multi PCM didn't sound terrible at all, in fact to the contrary, they were some of the best sounding most dynamic sound tracks I've heard on my system. I finally asked him if Emotiva was working on a solution for people who want MPCM WITH EQ, and he just said no. I should of just asked to speak with someone else, but I was just in shock from what he was saying. Every single other time I have corresponded with anyone from Emotiva they were not only professional, but knowledgeable about what they were talking about. This experience was totally different.  |
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Post by DYohn on Apr 29, 2010 17:03:37 GMT -5
Multi-channel PCM sounds the same as or potentially better than any of the new compression formats. Better if the tracks are recorded on the disc as PCM, no different if they are being created. The only difference is the player might be creating the PCM rather than the preamp creating them.
Whoever you spoke with should be reprimanded for being rude, at the very least.
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Post by moovtune on Apr 29, 2010 17:08:59 GMT -5
PCM on Blu-Ray movies is always at least 48K and 16 bit, sometimes 24 bit and should (and does to my ears) sound the same as the Printmaster (final mix) of the film. True HD is a compacted version of those PCM tracks and DTS-HDM is their version. True HD, DTS-HDM and PCM should all sound the same. (Take EMoGuy back into training class).
If you have a 5.1 setup, IMO there would be no advantage to using PLII or PLIIX as an overlay. Stay with multi PCM either "direct" or with EMO Q if they get that working for Multi PCM. With a 7.1 setup, adding PLIIX overlay to the 5.1 would give you the back channels active with probably a level cut somewhat on the side surrounds but with no noticeable effect on the L/C/R channels.
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Apr 29, 2010 17:28:50 GMT -5
Wow, I just had and extremely disappointing experience with Emotiva Tech support. I'm not going to drop any names, but they guy I was talking to was not only rude, and utterly unhelpful, but he didn't seem too knowledgeable about the things an AV tech should be knowledgeable about. I just called to get Emotivas take on what the best way to handle a Multi PCM signal, and before I could even finish my question, he blurted in with "Oh that's just crap". I asked him what he meant and he said "Multi PCM just sounds terrible.... its a crap format". He then proceeded to tell me about these "new" codex's Dolby TruHD and DTS MA that I should be using instead of Multi PCM. I explained to him that I am aware of those codex's, but some Blurays are encoded in PCM, not TruHD or MA, and it was obvious that he didn't believe me. I told him that PCM is lossless and uncompressed, and that IMO can sound great, and he just responded with "wow, agree to disagree, they always sound like crap to me, the bitrate is super low". Now I'm not an expert, but isn't the bitrate of Multi PCM just as high as Dolby TruHD? The BluRays that I have heard (3:10 to Yuma and Kill Bill) in Multi PCM didn't sound terrible at all, in fact to the contrary, they were some of the best sounding most dynamic sound tracks I've heard on my system. I finally asked him if Emotiva was working on a solution for people who want MPCM WITH EQ, and he just said no. I should of just asked to speak with someone else, but I was just in shock from what he was saying. Every single other time I have corresponded with anyone from Emotiva they were not only professional, but knowledgeable about what they were talking about. This experience was totally different. First off let me say that I don't know the particulars of the situation, but I do want to apologize if anyone here was un-professional in anyway. We work very hard to be both professional and personable so your experience is certainly not the norm. So please accept my apology. I will get to the bottom of this and see that it doesn't happen again. Lonnie |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2010 17:37:37 GMT -5
One thing I'm going to miss once I get a new processer id that my ES now has the option to matrix the surrounds, to give the back surrounds the same info as the side ones (although not ideal, it makes use of the back surrounds without degrading the SQ of the source). I wish this was an option other than having to turn on PLIIx on most processers as I agree the sound quality takes a pretty good hit, at least on my avr.
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Post by moovtune on Apr 29, 2010 17:40:53 GMT -5
I think EmoGuy was confusing Multi PCM with Multi Channel Stereo that many have been requesting. As I said in another post, I think Multi Channel Stereo is kind of a poor name for that because it can be confused. Maybe "All Channel Stereo" or something similar would be a better term. It's not a feature I would find useful but he certainly had a strong opinion about it that maybe went a bit overboard. Some people like it. But we're talking about two very different things. One involves up to 8 channels of PCM digital sound and one is a DSP effect that can be applied to 2 channels of some source.
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Post by nickwin on Apr 29, 2010 17:43:53 GMT -5
I think EmoGuy was confusing Multi PCM with Multi Channel Stereo that many have been requesting. As I said in another post, I think Multi Channel Stereo is kind of a poor name for that because it can be confused. Maybe "All Channel Stereo" or something similar would be a better term. It's not a feature I would find useful but he certainly had a strong opinion about it that maybe went a bit overboard. Some people like it. But we're talking about two very different things. One involves up to 8 channels of PCM digital sound and one is a DSP effect that can be applied to 2 channels of some source. That still doesn't explain the talk of "low bitrates" as multi-channel stereo shouldn't effect bit rates at all should it?  I appreciate the sincere apology Lonnie. My goal here was not to get anyone in trouble per say, I just felt it needed to be addressed, and I felt that what this particular tech was telling me wasn't completely accurate. I've communicated with people from your company many many times over the past few years, from customer service reps to tech's and even you a couple times, and I know first hand that this one experience is not representative of Emotiva in general. Just last week I was on the phone with one of your Tech's, Nick, for a good half hour, and he was extremely professional and knowledgeable about what he was talking about. If you could chime in here and give us your take on the best way to handle the Multi channel PCM tracks found on some bluray discs, and if there are any plans to add a mode to allow M PCM without bypassing EQ I would really appreciate it. |
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Post by moovtune on Apr 29, 2010 17:45:36 GMT -5
My previous processor was the Emotiva MMC-1 and PLIIx didn't degrade the sound in my system like a few have complained. I now have the SC-886 and again it doesn't degrade the sound when used with 5.1 sources to get 7.1 output nor with 2.0 sources to derive 7.1
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Post by moovtune on Apr 29, 2010 17:48:01 GMT -5
I think EmoGuy was confusing Multi PCM with Multi Channel Stereo that many have been requesting. As I said in another post, I think Multi Channel Stereo is kind of a poor name for that because it can be confused. Maybe "All Channel Stereo" or something similar would be a better term. It's not a feature I would find useful but he certainly had a strong opinion about it that maybe went a bit overboard. Some people like it. But we're talking about two very different things. One involves up to 8 channels of PCM digital sound and one is a DSP effect that can be applied to 2 channels of some source. The still doesn't explain the talk of "low bitrates" Thats true. Wonder where that came from? |
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I'm not going to drop any names, but they guy I was talking to was not only rude, and utterly unhelpful, but he didn't seem too knowledgeable about the things an AV tech should be knowledgeable about.
