Two Ultra 12s or one Rythmik F15

[ottaone]

My name has come up on the UMC-1 list. I would like to replace my B&W 10 inch with a bigger one for a bigger space. Should I go for two Ultra 12s or one Rythmik F15 for about the same money. I'm hoping to keep the cost around $1K.

I'm reading the Ultra 12 reviews as they come in.

Room is L/W/H - 18 x 15 x 18 and it opens to the kitchen and nook (another 20 x 15 x 9). Use is probably 70/30 music/HT so output quality is as important as quantity.

I'm in Canada so testing both will probably be out of the question, unfortunately.

One day, I'll probably try DIY but it's of the question for the moment.

[ntrain42]

May 1, 2010 23:24:18 GMT -5 ottaone said:

My name has come up on the UMC-1 list. I would like to replace my B&W 10 inch with a bigger one for a bigger space. Should I go for two Ultra 12s or one Rythmik F15 for about the same money. I'm hoping to keep the cost around $1K.

I'm reading the Ultra 12 reviews as they come in.

Room is L/W/H - 18 x 15 x 18 and it opens to the kitchen and nook (another 20 x 15 x 9). Use is probably 70/30 music/HT so output quality is as important as quantity.

I'm in Canada so testing both will probably be out of the question, unfortunately.

One day, I'll probably try DIY but it's of the question for the moment.

If you want a bit more output the 2 Ultra's will probably give you that. If you an accurate musical audiophile grade sub the Rythmik sub is going to be better without doubt, and its still going to give you great output for HT. Unless you listen to your system at very high volumes constantly I would go with the Rythmik. Its build quality and components used without a doubt is in another league all its own featuring a high quality servo driven aluminum driver, and it uses a real high current Class A/B amplifier(Basically a UPA-1 Emo amp), and a very heavy well braced enclosure.

I haven't heard an Ultra yet, but I can pretty much garentee is going to be a run of the mill typical 12" class D sealed sub that you can find for under $500 a piece. There are alot of these populating the market...........

[placebo473]

I wonder why Emotiva didn't try to market passive subs to be used with their seperate amps?

[jlafrenz]

May 2, 2010 20:25:30 GMT -5 placebo473 said:

I wonder why Emotiva didn't try to market passive subs to be used with their seperate amps?

Because their other amps are not really designed to be used with subwoofers. Some do use them or a channel for them though. They are coming out with another design of passive subs, but they will be sold with their own separate amp designed for the dual setup.

[wattsup]

May 1, 2010 23:24:18 GMT -5 ottaone said:

...Room is L/W/H - 18 x 15 x 18 and it opens to the kitchen and nook (another 20 x 15 x 9)....

Square rooms are never good acoustically for bass freqs but your case is a bit unusual having an 18-foot ceiling... talk about airy, wow! Do you live in an A-frame by any chance and the ceiling is actually sloped? BTW, my vote is for the Rythmik even though I've never heard the Ultra... but after listening to two Rythmiks now for the past year I gotta tell ya its hard to imagine anything short of another servo that will sound as clean and tight, that's what you want for music... and for home theater, they do go down low when called for, down to below 14Hz in-room response... that's enough to rumble the foundations of your house.

[ottaone]

Thanks gents. I will definitely give more consideration to the F15 now.

MDW chose the house. I just get to add the electronics.

Btw, does Rythmik/Ascend put stuff on sale or offer free shipping?

[ntrain42]

May 4, 2010 22:03:51 GMT -5 ottaone said:

Thanks gents. I will definitely give more consideration to the F15 now.

MDW chose the house. I just get to add the electronics.

Btw, does Rythmik/Ascend put stuff on sale or offer free shipping?

Nope, dont expect sales or free shipping. Your basically getting a subwoofer that would probably run in the $3k range retail if it was put out by a typical retail structure mfg. Rythmik subs use very high quality components and excellent enclosures. They sell for the price they do because your only feeding one single family only with no office/warehouse expenses, advertising, distributor, end retailer markup/cost etc. Very similiar to the Emotiva model, just on a much smaller scale with only a tiny fraction of the overhead of even Emotiva.

If you can squeeze out and afford one. I'd do it in a heartbeat. The cool thing is, if you get the XLR model, you can always add another Rythmik sub down the road when money permits and run the subs in master/slave mode(one sub controls the other).

And as a side note, if you do down the road opt to get a second F15, then you can take that 14hz low frequency extension and bring it down to below 10hz. THe nice thing about the Rythmik Class A/B servo amp is it has a defeatable 20hz rumble/subsonic filter, and when its defeated the amp is flat down to DC literally when its disabled. Most sub plate amps have a non defeatable subsonic filter built in.

[NorthStar]

Ntrain, a simple question for you: Which sub in your knowledge goes down the lowest (ie., 8 Hz or so)?
...And with decent output level at that low frequency?
-> You're saying that two Rythmic F15 together have low frequency extension down to below 10 Hz; which material (Music or Movies) has that low extension recorded on them? Are most movies kind of limited to about 25 Hz or so? Are CDs also kind of limited to about 20 Hz?
Even if there is low extension to about 5 Hz or so recorded on some material, is there a limit imposed by the audio format anyway?
What is in your personal experience and that you own at home the lowest bass extension software, and which one(s) is it?

Thanks,
Bob

[DYohn]

May 5, 2010 17:25:11 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Ntrain, a simple question for you: Which sub in your knowledge goes down the lowest (ie., 8 Hz or so)?
...And with decent output level at that low frequency?
-> You're saying that two Rythmic F15 together have low frequency extension down to below 10 Hz; which material (Music or Movies) has that low extension recorded on them? Are most movies kind of limited to about 25 Hz or so? Are CDs also kind of limited to about 20 Hz?
Even if there is low extension to about 5 Hz or so recorded on some material, is there a limit imposed by the audio format anyway?
What is in your personal experience and that you own at home the lowest bass extension software, and which one(s) is it?

Thanks,
Bob

I'm not Ntrain but I know of a readily available sub that I can verify is capable of >100db down to 8Hz anechoic (and -6db @ 6Hz in room) and that's the Bag End Infrasub 18. It'll give you the 16Hz fundamental of the low-C on a giant pipe organ with the greatest of ease.

There are others that can reach below 10Hz, but that is one I know intimately and can vouch for...

[ntrain42]

May 5, 2010 17:25:11 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Ntrain, a simple question for you: Which sub in your knowledge goes down the lowest (ie., 8 Hz or so)?
...And with decent output level at that low frequency?
-> You're saying that two Rythmic F15 together have low frequency extension down to below 10 Hz; which material (Music or Movies) has that low extension recorded on them? Are most movies kind of limited to about 25 Hz or so? Are CDs also kind of limited to about 20 Hz?
Even if there is low extension to about 5 Hz or so recorded on some material, is there a limit imposed by the audio format anyway?
What is in your personal experience and that you own at home the lowest bass extension software, and which one(s) is it?

Thanks,
Bob

When it comes to getting lower frequency extension its all about cone displacement. 2 15" drivers will have lower frequency extension than a single 15". Double up to 4 15" drivers and you will gain more output and lower extension naturally. Hell give me a ton of small power 8" subs, if you have enough of them you can get rediculous low frequency extension as well.

[Deleted]

May 5, 2010 19:56:26 GMT -5 DYohn said:

May 5, 2010 17:25:11 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Ntrain, a simple question for you: Which sub in your knowledge goes down the lowest (ie., 8 Hz or so)?
...And with decent output level at that low frequency?
-> You're saying that two Rythmic F15 together have low frequency extension down to below 10 Hz; which material (Music or Movies) has that low extension recorded on them? Are most movies kind of limited to about 25 Hz or so? Are CDs also kind of limited to about 20 Hz?
Even if there is low extension to about 5 Hz or so recorded on some material, is there a limit imposed by the audio format anyway?
What is in your personal experience and that you own at home the lowest bass extension software, and which one(s) is it?

Thanks,
Bob

I'm not Ntrain but I know of a readily available sub that I can verify is capable of >100db down to 8Hz anechoic (and -6db @ 6Hz in room) and that's the Bag End Infrasub 18. It'll give you the 16Hz fundamental of the low-C on a giant pipe organ with the greatest of ease.

There are others that can reach below 10Hz, but that is one I know intimately and can vouch for...

Just a short interjection here from the Land of the Rising Sun.

David, thank God for your first statement.

As to the Bag End, I couldn't find the test I wanted, but did find the test on the Bag End Infrasub-12 that they claim goes down to 8Hz. My first reaction is pure nonsense, the same reaction when I hear the resident sub guru makes statements that the Rythmik-15 can hit 14Hz (at what levels I would ask?). People can make these types of subjective statements all day with no objective backup facts. Unfortunately, too many here believe these statements interspersed with a good bit of experience, a good bit of knowledge and a big helping of BS. How to separate the accurate statements from the BS is difficult for most. As I have said before, I have no doubt that the Rythmik is a very good sub, especially for music and some HT, but 14Hz at real levels and low distortion is pure BS to me until I see this type of statement backed up with verifiable information. Do you believe Tom N or the one who claims that cymbals can reproduce tones in the 20Hz range, or claims to have owned the SVS Ultras for several months, or claims that subs should cover only one octave. Yes, I know very well the inherent tendency to exaggerate the qualities of products that have full page adds in one's magazine. That is why I put most of my interest in the stated test measurements (which are 100% objective when under the same test conditions) and a big grain of salt in the subjective text of the reviews.

Lets talk realistic bass extension here. Tom N. tested the Bag End Infrasub-12 (claimed to reach 8Hz) at a bass extension limit of 16Hz at 65dB's!. That is not what I would call realistic levels or even close. It did reach 110dB's at 62Hz but was down significantly in output below that frequency. So where is the claimed 8Hz response? The fact is that Tom N. tested the SVS PB-12 Plus at 114.8dB's at 20Hz. Now that is why I still recommend the SVS subs to friends who want deep bass extension/low distortion at HT levels.

Now back to eating some raw fish. ;D

[Accurus]

Chuckie,
I can tell you that as a recent owner of the F15 I am getting down to 15hz in my room with no EQ adjustments. This is according to my SMS-1. I am getting a flat response from 80hz to 15hz +/- 2 db in my room with my Magnepans running above 85db. Say what you will but the Rythmik in my room is measuring exactly as it sounds: clean and deep. The fact that a 15in sub is sounding cleaner to my ears than my 10in Rel Strata IIIs should be an indicator. As far as I am concerned the Strata IIIs are a reference grade subwoofer for music and the F15 is keeping pace and in some areas exceeding them.

[ntrain42]

May 5, 2010 22:30:00 GMT -5 @chuckienut said:

May 5, 2010 19:56:26 GMT -5 DYohn said:

I'm not Ntrain but I know of a readily available sub that I can verify is capable of >100db down to 8Hz anechoic (and -6db @ 6Hz in room) and that's the Bag End Infrasub 18. It'll give you the 16Hz fundamental of the low-C on a giant pipe organ with the greatest of ease.

There are others that can reach below 10Hz, but that is one I know intimately and can vouch for...

Just a short interjection here from the Land of the Rising Sun.

David, thank God for your first statement.

As to the Bag End, I couldn't find the test I wanted, but did find the test on the Bag End Infrasub-12 that they claim goes down to 8Hz. My first reaction is pure nonsense, the same reaction when I hear the resident sub guru makes statements that the Rythmik-15 can hit 14Hz (at what levels I would ask?). People can make these types of subjective statements all day with no objective backup facts. Unfortunately, too many here believe these statements interspersed with a good bit of experience, a good bit of knowledge and a big helping of BS. How to separate the accurate statements from the BS is difficult for most. As I have said before, I have no doubt that the Rythmik is a very good sub, especially for music and some HT, but 14Hz at real levels and low distortion is pure BS to me until I see this type of statement backed up with verifiable information. Do you believe Tom N or the one who claims that cymbals can reproduce tones in the 20Hz range, or claims to have owned the SVS Ultras for several months, or claims that subs should cover only one octave. Yes, I know very well the inherent tendency to exaggerate the qualities of products that have full page adds in one's magazine. That is why I put most of my interest in the stated test measurements (which are 100% objective when under the same test conditions) and a big grain of salt in the subjective text of the reviews.

Lets talk realistic bass extension here. Tom N. tested the Bag End Infrasub-12 (claimed to reach 8Hz) at a bass extension limit of 16Hz at 65dB's!. That is not what I would call realistic levels or even close. It did reach 110dB's at 62Hz but was down significantly in output below that frequency. So where is the claimed 8Hz response? The fact is that Tom N. tested the SVS PB-12 Plus at 114.8dB's at 20Hz. Now that is why I still recommend the SVS subs to friends who want deep bass extension/low distortion at HT levels.

Now back to eating some raw fish. ;D

This seems like a pretty blatent baiting post, but I'll bite since we have more worthless references to Mr. "paid advertisement" himself Tom Nousaine by his biggest lemming fan(Since we're not naming names here ).

Just curoius how good ol' Tom gets 114db at 20hz out of a PB-12 when a PB-13 can't do that kind of output cleanly at 20hz? In fact, I couldn't get that out of the 2 PB-13's cleanly in my modest sized theater room...... Is good ol' Tom using his "acceptable 10%" or higher distortion rating again while tossing a sub into his closet test lab? I keep forgetting that is 100% acceptable to overdrive subs into significant distortion rates in his books, LOL! Personally I think the more advertising dollars a sub mfg. invests into the publication, the smaller the test closet Tom uses, LOL!


And as a side note here, when you playing subsonic frequencies under 20hz, you dont need 90-100db or greater output to get significant benefits out of it. Ever run/feel a pure 10hz cycle tone at a modest 60-70db? If you have you know it will shake your house something significant even at those modest levels. If you have a sub system that can put down 10hz at 80db your watching fixtures and ornaments in the house shake.

Im sure when Rythmik pays HT mag, HTHF, TAS etc big dollars for full page ads like SVS does you will see a paid advertisement "reviews" praising it as "the best sub I have heard to date" on their products too.

Personally, I'm glad they don't, I dont like paying Tom Nousaine or any of the other reviewers personally since they add nothing to the performance/price paid.

BTW Chuckieboi, you should go over to the AVS forum, hit up the Rythmik thread. There are ALOT of former "SVS" owners over there who switched over to Rythmik other than myself who have the same exact opinion I do of the product.

And um, comparing a Bag End 12" driver to their 18" driver is not what I would call apples to apples comparison. An 18" driver has more than twice the sd........ Lot more potential for it to reach down lower with more output. Plus remember, Bag End doesn't advertise to the same extent SVS does, so you got to add that into the equation of the product by Tom Nousaine's pay scale/performance calculator. ;D

[ntrain42]

LOTR: As for recordings, I think it differs from mfg. to mfg. on potential filters used in the recording. There is talk that some new Blu's use 25hz filters now vs. older DVD recordings which had better bass extension. I personally have some test material that starts at 5hz and sweeps up. I think even DVE has a test sweep that starts pretty low if your looking to test low frequency extension honestly.

[NorthStar]

^ Yeah but I don't want another test disc, I got tons of those at home with some that claim 5 Hz on their CDs (from Telarc). ...Can you truly get 5 Hz reproduction from a CD???!!!
What I want is the real stuff, synthesizers with true 10 Hz bass content and pipe organs with true 16 Hz and with 8 Hz subharmonics! But can you get this from a simple CD recording???
Or a Blu-ray disc??? DVD-Audio??? SACD???
I want the REAL THING, on the right audio format!!! WHERE IS IT??? I wanna rip the walls apart from my entire house!!! I wanna blow all the pipes, crack the cement foundations, have the S.W.A.T. team and the entire USA army at my door!!!

The only real stuff (recordings) that I got at home are just FARTS at 22 Hz!!! Or is that stuff (5 Hz) from Telarc real? ...Then I need new subs! ...Because my house is still standing, and I'm disappointed! I wanna see it crash before my own eyes (ears, guts, whatever...)!

* By the way, Tom Nousaine, is that guy writes in Sound & Vision, that mag of questionable integrity? Plus their Forums are full of people that post only for posting, but without any knowledge whatsoever about AM/FM radios, even less about razor blades!!!
I mean, where this world is going to???

Note --> I appreciate everyone's input, because when it comes to atomic sub low levels in our lifes, we're talking real impact here, where it counts the MOST! ;D

[Deleted]

Thanks Accurus, finally a no nonsense answer that indicates that the Rythmik 15 has decent measured/in room response low end extension at least at moderate levels. How far above 85dB's while maintaining the +/- 2 variation would be my continued interest.

Yes, I'm well aware that many times normal playback might not achieve those higher levels at the lowest frequencies but my interest in evaluating a sub for my own purchase or recommending to others is based on standard requirements for maximum performance. Levels in the 105dB's and 115dB's (for LFE channel) range at less than 10% distortion at 80Hz down to the 15-20Hz area or so are a good marker for an excellent HT sub (the very best can exceed that). I like to know that a sub can at least approach these lofty levels in test circumstances if I am going to consider it for a high recommendation to myself and others. My own Outlaw FM-1 Plus sub does not meet those levels but with the SMS-1 and sub platform was and still is sufficient for my condo and budget purposes at the time of purchase.

I understand perfectly the level of respect due or not to all of the in-print and online audio/video/HT magazines. I have been subscribing and reading many of them each month for longer than the resident sub guru has been on this planet. I take all that is printed with an appropriate and knowledgeable grain of salt. I do however appreciate the test measurements provided by certain magazines because I am especially skeptical of the subjective only reviews. To imply that Tom Nousaine might be cooking his lab measurements due to SVS or any other company placing adds in the magazine is nonsense. Yes, you won't see any negative reviews on Definitive Technology speakers as far as the subjective evaluations go in S&V or HT magazine (but it is easy, with some experience reading these reviews, to read between the lines). However, I don't think for a moment that they let that influence the publishing of measured tests figures. Unfortunately, very few read or even understand the measured test results. I use these figures as a legitimate comparative tool. Too many folks here and at other forums say that model X is the best sub since sliced bread and therefore you should buy it. I put a lot of credence into my perceived opinion of the posters. The member here in question simply does not have his facts straight on many issues. The simple fact that he does not know that 10% is the acceptable maximum test measurement level for subs at maximum output is one good example, this is part of subs 101. That is one reason why I have disregarded most of his comments on the Rythmik sub. Other than objective facts that I am already aware of and subjective evaluations that I take as reliable due to the credence of the poster (such as yourself), his mishmash of information which includes facts and BS is best left at other forums IMO. His attacks on others members here does nothing to improve his credibility. He just might be correct on his opinion on the Rythmik sub. However, I can't make that determination just because he claims to have owned, tested or listened to just about every audio/HT product ever built in the last 20 years on the face of this planet. The fact that his recommending the Rythmik sub has to include bashing a very well respected and verifiable top performer without a thread of evidence other than his word is the height of false guruism (translated directly from Japanese ;D). He can't follow simple logic. I mentioned the Infrasonic-12 because it claims 8Hz but measures no where near that in TN tests. The conclusion that the Infrasub-18 might have similar test results not close to its claimed response follows and is reasonable to assume. I do find that David Yohn is very reliable in his posted information so I find that discrepancy in low end results curious.

I already believe that the Rythmik is a very good sub. I am aware of its fan status on the Internet. But there are lots of subs out their that are highly over rated. Many people are impressed to no end by subs that pump out 115dB's or louder at 50-70Hz but fall apart below 30Hz and can't tell the difference. My questions have been on the low bass extension, output and distortion levels below the 22-25Hz area as I and many here are interested in subs that are excellent performers for both music and HT.

Thanks again Accurus. Your simple 6 line post held much more water than any of his 247,000 posts on the Rythmik sub.

[DYohn]

Chuck, with all due respect to whoever conducted the test you're quoting, the INF18 sub is capable of 100db @ 8Hz.

[Deleted]

May 6, 2010 8:33:10 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Chuck, with all due respect to whoever conducted the test you're quoting, the INF18 sub is capable of 100db @ 8Hz.

David that was from Tom Nousaine. I thought he did a test of the Bag End 18 but I couldn't find it in while I'm in Japan. I'll look for the test when I get home. I presume that the actual results versus claimed results for the 12 and 18 would be consistent, but that could be wrong. I have felt his test in the past seemed consistently fair across the board. He has excellent credentials. My vague memory impression was that Bag End subs were more from the pro sound family and extremely strong and loud but not necessarily super low in extension and again that might be wrong or from their older subs. Perhaps that is where they got their start.


"..........Who is Tom Nousaine?
Tom Nousaine is presently a Contributing Technical Editor of Sound & Vision, the largest audio/video publication in the world, and holds a similar position with Professional Audio Review. In the past 25 years his work has appeared in Stereo Review, Audio, Sound & Image, Video, Car Stereo Review, Mobile Entertainment, Road Gear, Audio/Video International, The Audio Critic, The $ensible Sound. and Telephony magazines. Tom operates TN Communications, specializing in loudspeaker measurement, expert listening evaluation and business communications. He is also Chief Operating Officer for Listening Technology, Inc., which conducts expert 3rd party autosound listening evaluations for automotive OEMs and their tier one suppliers.

Mr. Nousaine is a past Audio Engineering Society Regional Vice President and past Chairman of the AES Chicago Section. Tom founded the Prairie State Audio Construction Society, the Society for Depreciation Professionals and has been a long time member of the Southeastern Michigan Woofer and Tweeter Marching Society. Previously, he was Director of Capital Recovery for Baby Bell Ameritech and holds Bachelor and MBA degrees from Michigan State University..........."

[ntrain42]

May 6, 2010 1:17:19 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

^ Yeah but I don't want another test disc, I got tons of those at home with some that claim 5 Hz on their CDs (from Telarc). ...Can you truly get 5 Hz reproduction from a CD???!!!
What I want is the real stuff, synthesizers with true 10 Hz bass content and pipe organs with true 16 Hz and with 8 Hz subharmonics! But can you get this from a simple CD recording???
Or a Blu-ray disc??? DVD-Audio??? SACD???
I want the REAL THING, on the right audio format!!! WHERE IS IT??? I wanna rip the walls apart from my entire house!!! I wanna blow all the pipes, crack the cement foundations, have the S.W.A.T. team and the entire USA army at my door!!!

The only real stuff (recordings) that I got at home are just FARTS at 22 Hz!!! Or is that stuff (5 Hz) from Telarc real? ...Then I need new subs! ...Because my house is still standing, and I'm disappointed! I wanna see it crash before my own eyes (ears, guts, whatever...)!

* By the way, Tom Nousaine, is that guy writes in Sound & Vision, that mag of questionable integrity? Plus their Forums are full of people that post only for posting, but without any knowledge whatsoever about AM/FM radios, even less about razor blades!!!
I mean, where this world is going to???

Note --> I appreciate everyone's input, because when it comes to atomic sub low levels in our lifes, we're talking real impact here, where it counts the MOST! ;D

Honestly, I have no idea what CD's if any have 5hz material recorded onto them, Ive never really looked into that. I know there are a few threads over at the Shack and AVS that talk about low hz recordings, but I never really perused into em. Ill try and post you a few links later today.

[ntrain42]

May 6, 2010 3:37:50 GMT -5 @chuckienut said:

Thanks Accurus

I already believe that the Rythmik is a very good sub. I am aware of its fan status on the Internet. But there are lots of subs out their that are highly over rated. Many people are impressed to no end by subs that pump out 115dB's or louder at 50-70Hz but fall apart below 30Hz and can't tell the difference. My questions have been on the low bass extension, output and distortion levels below the 22-25Hz area as I and many here are interested in subs that are excellent performers for both music and HT.

Thanks again Accurus. Your simple 6 line post held much more water than any of his 247,000 posts on the Rythmik sub.

FUnny, I stated many times what the Rythmik sub is capable of at X frequency at X db., LOL! BUt I guess it doesn't hold water. And if you go to many other threads not including me, but by others with a Rythmik sub, you will find many more similiar findings.

But as low as a Rythmik sub can extend below 20hz, its not really what this sub is all about, the majority of the information played is from 20/30hz up to around 80/90hz and its not just about its sheer "output", but its ability to play complex musical passages with clean articulation and this is what the Rythmik is all about.

If someone just wants raw sheer output and are only worried about "SPL" below 20hz I could run off a number of Pro audio/DIY drivers that will do that in spades............