UPA-7 Sold Out & DISCONTINUED???!!!

[ntrain42]

Dec 31, 2010 13:02:45 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Dec 31, 2010 12:55:46 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

I havent physically measured it, I dont need to. If I have 2 channels playing in a seperate room, then the other 3-5 speakers shouldn't be singing along loud enough to wake someone from a sound sleep. But that gives you an idea of how bad it can be. This was specifically with a UPA-7(And 2 others were tested as well with the exact same issues, just to make sure it wasnt a defective product).

Interesting. I have no similar issues in my UPA-7 driven by the UMC-1. In 2-channel mode the other five speakers are dead silent. So I haven't felt the need to measure it either because it isn't there. Perhaps your preamp is sending a signal to the other channels that you were not aware of.

Nope, not the preamp. DIsconnecting extra RCA inputs to the other 5 channels on the amp changed nothing. Its there, its very bad. Even the latest review on the UPA-7 stated its poor and audible. I happen to have a set of lower impedance maggies with much low sensitivity off of 2 of the channels in the seperate room I spoke of compared to the 8ohm Kefs with a much higher sensitivity off the other 5 channels. So my specific setup magnifies the glaring issue with the amp. I I swap out the UPA-7 with my 906, the audible crosstalk completely dissapears regardless of output volume thrown at the Maggies.

[tchaik]

ntrain,

my comment about the xpa-2 being dual differential is certainly worthy of notice. the rca's, on the other hand, could use some help in being more secure and less prone to breaking with a hefty cable attached. personally, i haven't had that problem but i have heard of it on this forum. as for the crosstalk, my set up is such that crosstalk would never be an issue.

tchaik..............

[DYohn]

Dec 31, 2010 13:09:17 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Dec 31, 2010 13:02:45 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Interesting. I have no similar issues in my UPA-7 driven by the UMC-1. In 2-channel mode the other five speakers are dead silent. So I haven't felt the need to measure it either because it isn't there. Perhaps your preamp is sending a signal to the other channels that you were not aware of.

Nope, not the preamp. DIsconnecting extra RCA inputs to the other 5 channels on the amp changed nothing. Its there, its very bad. Even the latest review on the UPA-7 stated its poor and audible. I happen to have a set of lower impedance maggies with much low sensitivity off of 2 of the channels in the seperate room I spoke of compared to the 8ohm Kefs with a much higher sensitivity off the other 5 channels. So my specific setup magnifies the glaring issue with the amp. I I swap out the UPA-7 with my 906, the audible crosstalk completely dissapears regardless of output volume thrown at the Maggies.

You call it a "glaring issue" and I say it doesn't exist. Sounds like maybe you are doing something differently than me, eh? Perhaps get your amp bench tested and measured and I'll do the same and we can compare apples to apples? You agree?

[ntrain42]

Dec 31, 2010 13:11:51 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Dec 31, 2010 13:09:17 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Nope, not the preamp. DIsconnecting extra RCA inputs to the other 5 channels on the amp changed nothing. Its there, its very bad. Even the latest review on the UPA-7 stated its poor and audible. I happen to have a set of lower impedance maggies with much low sensitivity off of 2 of the channels in the seperate room I spoke of compared to the 8ohm Kefs with a much higher sensitivity off the other 5 channels. So my specific setup magnifies the glaring issue with the amp. I I swap out the UPA-7 with my 906, the audible crosstalk completely dissapears regardless of output volume thrown at the Maggies.

You call it a "glaring error" and I say it doesn't exist. Sounds like maybe you are doing something differently than me, eh? Perhaps get your amp bench tested and measured and I'll do the same and we can compare apples to apples? You agree?

Had 3 seperate UPA-7's swapped out. All with the same issue with 2 different UMC-1's a 906,805,2 886's all using the UPA-7 as the amp. When using the UPA-7(all 3 of em) the crosstalk was obnoxious. When using a UMC-1 with another brand(Aragon) multichannel amp, no crosstalk whatsoever. Using an Onkyo AVR, no issue. There is about a 10db difference in sensitivity between my Maggies and Kef's, so it will magnify the issue.

Tell you what, grab yourself a set of 4ohm low sensitivity speakers like a set of maggies, play em off 2 channels, have the other 5 speakers hooked up to a set of higher sensitivity 8ohm speakers, and I can garentee you, there will be plenty of crosstalk to tap your feet to.

Here is the link to the reviewer who also found the same issue I did: www.audioholics.com/reviews/amplifiers/emotiva-upa-7/upa7-measurements

And a quote from the review:

If the UPA-7 had an Achilles' Heel it would be its channel to channel crosstalk performance. With all channels acting as the noise source or disturber, I measured each idle channel one at a time to determine the worst case channel to channel crosstalk. At 1kHz the UPA-7 yielded -70dB @ 1kHz and -50dB at 10kHz for its noisiest channel. I consider anything less than -40dB @ 10kHz acceptable so the UPA-7 met that minimum requirement with 10dB to spare. With only 1 channel acting as the disturber, the adjacent channel produced -85dB @ 1kHz and - 60dB @ 10kHz.

So with my setup and 2 channels playing, and add a full 10db for the speaker offset sensitivity, I will be listening to music around 70-80db or a bit higher downstairs and the bedroom would be cranking out 30-40db at certain frequencies I guestimate. Not acceptable in my book at all. I've never had an amp with this much crosstalk.

[DYohn]

Dec 31, 2010 13:26:00 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

misc rambling

Again, you're dodging my question. Will you agree to take your UPA-7 to be tested in a proper way to compare with the results I get from having mine tested?

Any other comparison method is meaningless - variables must be eliminated.

[DYohn]

And by the way, my loudspeakers are all 4-ohm impedance and run about 91db/watt/meter senstivity.

[buzzomatic]

What would be the best way to measure crosstalk? All I have on hand is a digital multimeter and an iPhone DB meter.

First post, woo!

[DYohn]

Dec 31, 2010 13:36:36 GMT -5 buzzomatic said:

What would be the best way to measure crosstalk? All I have on hand is a digital multimeter and an iPhone DB meter.

First post, woo!

Welcome to the forum. You can't measure it with a multimeter or a dbSPL meter, you need a true RMS volt meter that reads out in db and a good reference level signal generator. A typical multichannel amplifier will have adjacent channel crosstalk or less than -50dbu at 1Khz.

[DYohn]

Here's Audioholic's posted crosstalk measurement of the UPA-7. This is with all channels driven at +4dbu except the one under test, which is a very strenuous test methodology and creates worst-case conditions. As you can see, it is well below -50dbu @ 1khz.

[ntrain42]

Dec 31, 2010 13:30:19 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Dec 31, 2010 13:26:00 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

misc rambling

Again, you're dodging my question. Will you agree to take your UPA-7 to be tested in a proper way to compare with the results I get from having mine tested?

Any other comparison method is meaningless - variables must be eliminated.

Variables were completely eliminated already. If I use a 2 channel CD player direct in(on any of the 7 channels), the other 5 channels continue to sing away still. No other RCA's plugged in whatsoever. If I plug that same CD player into another brand multichannel amp like one of my Aragons or into an AVR the caudible crosstalk is gone. WHat other variables could there be to account for? WIth the UPA-7 in the mix its there, without it, its gone. Changing cables, components,speaker wire/length etc makes no difference.

[ntrain42]

Dec 31, 2010 13:31:56 GMT -5 DYohn said:

And by the way, my loudspeakers are all 4-ohm impedance and run about 91db/watt/meter senstivity.

OK, all your speakers them I assume are 4ohms with roughly same rating. 2 of mine are at least 10db lower in sensitivity than the other 5. If I swap out the maggies to another identical spec Kef's then the audible crosstalk is reduced significantly(about 10db), but its still there and audible, just not nearly as bad.

[DYohn]

Dec 31, 2010 13:54:46 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Dec 31, 2010 13:30:19 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Again, you're dodging my question. Will you agree to take your UPA-7 to be tested in a proper way to compare with the results I get from having mine tested?

Any other comparison method is meaningless - variables must be eliminated.

Variables were completely eliminated already. If I use a 2 channel CD player direct in(on any of the 7 channels), the other 5 channels continue to sing away still. No other RCA's plugged in whatsoever. If I plug that same CD player into another brand multichannel amp like one of my Aragons or into an AVR the caudible crosstalk is gone. WHat other variables could there be to account for? WIth the UPA-7 in the mix its there, without it, its gone. Changing cables, components,speaker wire/length etc makes no difference.

You are reporting your experience with your system. It is unique and exclusive to the specific variables contained in your system. It is completely meaningless to me or to anyone else because it is not a test conducted under controlled conditions. It is simply you playing around. If you are unhappy, then so be it, but it does not mean the amplifier has unacceptable crosstalk it simply means that you did something that created unacceptable result to you. I don't like peas, but that does not make them unacceptable as food, it only means I won't eat them.

[ntrain42]

Dec 31, 2010 13:47:50 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Here's Audioholic's posted crosstalk measurement of the UPA-7. This is with all channels driven at +4dbu except the one under test, which is a very strenuous test methodology and creates worst-case conditions. As you can see, it is well below -50dbu @ 1khz.

Yep, I concur with that test, and with my setup you can add an extra 10db on top of that as well. Thats not good at all. And compared to the Onkyo AVR's and Aragon amp is pretty darn poor in comparison. Because through those components the crosstalk is not audible at all, even with the 10db difference between the speakers I use.

[DYohn]

Dec 31, 2010 14:00:26 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Dec 31, 2010 13:47:50 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Here's Audioholic's posted crosstalk measurement of the UPA-7. This is with all channels driven at +4dbu except the one under test, which is a very strenuous test methodology and creates worst-case conditions. As you can see, it is well below -50dbu @ 1khz.

Yep, I concur with that test, and with my setup you can add an extra 10db on top of that as well. Thats not good at all. And compared to the Onkyo AVR's and Aragon amp is pretty darn poor in comparison. Because through those components the crosstalk is not audible at all, even with the 10db difference between the speakers I use.

This demonstrates that you have no idea what you are talking about. Those test results are outstanding and are as good as or better than any other multichannel amp would test under similar conditions.

Humans cannot hear a 1Khz signal at -50dB. It is completely inaudible to the average human at -20dB.

[ntrain42]

Dec 31, 2010 13:59:24 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Dec 31, 2010 13:54:46 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Variables were completely eliminated already. If I use a 2 channel CD player direct in(on any of the 7 channels), the other 5 channels continue to sing away still. No other RCA's plugged in whatsoever. If I plug that same CD player into another brand multichannel amp like one of my Aragons or into an AVR the caudible crosstalk is gone. WHat other variables could there be to account for? WIth the UPA-7 in the mix its there, without it, its gone. Changing cables, components,speaker wire/length etc makes no difference.

You are reporting your experience with your system. It is unique and exclusive to the specific variables contained in your system. It is completely meaningless to me or to anyone else because it is not a test conducted under controlled conditions. It is simply you playing around. If you are unhappy, then so be it, but it does not mean the amplifier has unacceptable crosstalk it simply means that you did something that created unacceptable result to you. I don't like peas, but that does not make them unacceptable as food, it only means I won't eat them.

Thats right I am. And it is actually quite meaningful to me and potentially to others with similiar setups and scenarios, especially if someone else uses a single multichannel amp for 2 zone use. And Ive stated that specifically many times.

Regardless, crosstalk performance on the UPA-7 is not great at all. For single zone HT use its probably fine. For serious 2 channel listening though I wouldn't recommend it. Nor would I for multizone use, especially if one room with speakers hooked up needs to be QUIET.

With that stated, I hope Emotiva improves the crosstalk spec for their multichannel amps, because its pretty poor, especially compared to other AVR's and amps.

[sharkman]

Dec 31, 2010 14:04:49 GMT -5 DYohn said:

This demonstrates that you have no idea what you are talking about. Those test results are outstanding and are as good as or better than any other multichannel amp would test under similar conditions.

Humans cannot hear a 1Khz signal at -50dB. It is completely inaudible to the average human at -20dB.

Since you referenced the Audioholics review, what is your thoughts on what the reviewer said regarding this issue, "If the UPA-7 had an Achilles' Heel it would be its channel to channel crosstalk performance".

[ntrain42]

Dec 31, 2010 14:04:49 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Dec 31, 2010 14:00:26 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Yep, I concur with that test, and with my setup you can add an extra 10db on top of that as well. Thats not good at all. And compared to the Onkyo AVR's and Aragon amp is pretty darn poor in comparison. Because through those components the crosstalk is not audible at all, even with the 10db difference between the speakers I use.

This demonstrates that you have no idea what you are talking about. Those test results are outstanding and are as good as or better than any other multichannel amp would test under similar conditions.

Humans cannot hear a 1Khz signal at -50dB. It is completely inaudible to the average human at -20dB.

Honestly I think YOU have no idea what your talking about.

A. The threshold for human hearing on average is around 10db at 1khz, with the highest sensitivity being around 3-4khz(about 2db being the threshold).

B. That means that if Im playing music downstairs at 80db. There is still about 20-30db playing out of the other 5 speakers upstairs in my setup from about 1khz-10khz. And that is significant.

C. Those crosstalk results are not great at all. They are obviously not as good as my Aragon amp, or my Onkyo AVR's, or even the Denon I briefly tried out as well.

[Deleted]

Nice!! another thread that turns into a discussion about crosstalk. If you think or can prove a amp has crosstalk, return it or sell it and get a different one.

Happy New Year

[DYohn]

The most obvious variable you haven't eliminated in your comparison is the output impedance of whatever you're using as a preamp VS the input impedance differences between amplifiers. It is entirely possible that one amp will better match the preamp than another which can cause various performance differences.

[ntrain42]

Dec 31, 2010 14:20:14 GMT -5 @kraemerkid2119 said:

Nice!! another thread that turns into a discussion about crosstalk. If you think or can prove a amp has crosstalk, return it or sell it and get a different one.

Happy New Year

Its already been proven. And not just by me or the "pro" review from Audioholics. There were 2 other people on AVS who also complained about bad crosstalk on the UPA amps. One person was able to record just how bad the bleedthrough was for playback.

And yes, I sold off that UPA-7, and picked up an XPA-5 and a pair of UPA-1's to drive the seond zone to eliminate the problem, which it did.

I also tested out the XPA-5 for crosstalk under the same scenario. It still has a bit of bleed, but its barely audible and nowhere near as bad as the UPA-7.