Denon 4311ci vs Onkyo 5008

[Deleted]

Feb 5, 2011 13:22:38 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Feb 5, 2011 12:12:59 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

I do really think that most people on the forums are using external amps anyways on their higher end units. I'm sure not everyone but if they are on here, chances are they will add or be adding an amp at one point making the amp selections moot.

Absolutely! ...And that is what I also mentioned prior.

* But here's the thing: with some Onkyo receivers, you can get away with!

And the beauty in all of this is right here! Adding one, two, three, or more Emotiva amps is so inexpensive and fun that adding extra power simply contributes to that 'fun' experience! ;D

We're talking real DYNAMICS here, and dynamics is real Music, and real People as well!

Ever noticed how dynamic people are, here at the Lounge?

LOl we got quite a few different types on here, thats for sure..... and choo choo of course

In the fall when I get my new pro, I'm going to take a real hard look at the new Onkyos, as long as they come out with an 11.2.

[NorthStar]

Feb 5, 2011 14:40:49 GMT -5 @theresa said:

Yes, I got sucked in. First the UMC-1, then the UPA-5, XPA-3, UPA-2, not too many, just right for active speakers all across the front. And you know what? Emo is the first real bargain I've ever been fortunate enough to get. I'm always looking for a good deal and usually I get taken and end up disappointed. So far this is not so with Emotiva.

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! ...Dynamic Theresa!

[NorthStar]

Feb 5, 2011 14:47:18 GMT -5 @theresa said:

Ok, Bob. I'm just Theresa, never Teresa, Terry, Terri, Teri etc... My daughter's name is Margaret but she uses "Emi," after meeting a friend of mine whose name was Emi and who was a master/mistress of Dance, Dance, Revolution. I think my daughter has great taste in names.

Gotcha Theresa!

[NorthStar]

Feb 5, 2011 13:12:27 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Your wrong on the capacitance on the 905/906, mine uses 22,000uf caps as well.

My very dear Choo choo,

* Here's the inside of the Onkyo TX-NR905:



* And here's the inside of the Onkyo TX-NR906:



__________________

* Onkyo TX-NR905 power drop when Speaker Impedance Setting selected to 4 Ohms:
@ www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14557133&postcount=93

__________________

Now, for 'la creme de la creme', or 'la piece de resistance', 'voici!':

1. www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11258386&postcount=353

^==> And John, who is the author of that thread, ex-owner of the Onkyo TX-NR905, did remove the top cover of his 905 receiver, and without any doubt, confirmed that the two main caps inside were rated at 18,000 uF each (71 Volts & 85 degree C)!
{John made one mistake though: the DACs in those two Denon receivers are the inferior Burr-Brown
PCM-1791 DACs, and not the B-B PCM-1792 as mentioned in his post. The Denons have four PCM-1791 Stereo DACs; the Onkyos (905/906) have five PCM-1796 Stereo Dacs (better ones).}
Everything else that John said in his post, I concur with!

2. www.eu.onkyo.com/dl/1186642/Onkyo_2008-2009_UK.pdf

^==> Give it some time (about a minute) to download that PDF file, and then go to page 5!
-> And read the paragraph entitled; Harnessing Power for Audio Performace.

And by the way, I did have the 906 myself at one point, and I did remove the top cover (as I ALWAYS do with ALL my electronic gear), and indeed the caps inside were rated at 18,000 uF each!
- Same as in my 876 which I still have!

Now! Fill your pipe and smoke it! ;D

On the output devices I believe the 905/906's 4 smaller toshiba devices per channel have a higher rating than the 2 larger ones used per channel on the 5007/5008. Again this would explain why your not seeing as high an rms rating per channel or all channels driven. In other words they are spreading the power out over 9 channels vs. 7 on the older AVR's which would make sense on why the newer AVR's have a lower tested rating. Same basic ps and capacitance, just more channels now to power.

What you believe and what it is, Choo choo, are two different things! ;D

Even what you said is highly questionable!
...Well, in this case right here, you said that I was wrong when in fact I was right, and you also said that "mine has 22,000uF caps as well" when referring to the 905/906, whichever you have/had/not have... So perhaps your own eyes lied to you! ...And from which you shared that lie directly with me!
Sooooo, what should I believe now? Tell me, Andrew?

[NorthStar]

Feb 5, 2011 15:17:24 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

Feb 5, 2011 13:22:38 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Absolutely! ...And that is what I also mentioned prior.

* But here's the thing: with some Onkyo receivers, you can get away with!

And the beauty in all of this is right here! Adding one, two, three, or more Emotiva amps is so inexpensive and fun that adding extra power simply contributes to that 'fun' experience! ;D

We're talking real DYNAMICS here, and dynamics is real Music, and real People as well!

Ever noticed how dynamic people are, here at the Lounge?

LOl we got quite a few different types on here, thats for sure..... and choo choo of course

In the fall when I get my new pro, I'm going to take a real hard look at the new Onkyos, as long as they come out with an 11.2.

...Speaking of choo choo (our little devil), have a look at the post just above!

[Deleted]

Feb 5, 2011 15:53:54 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Feb 5, 2011 15:17:24 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

LOl we got quite a few different types on here, thats for sure..... and choo choo of course

In the fall when I get my new pro, I'm going to take a real hard look at the new Onkyos, as long as they come out with an 11.2.

...Speaking of choo choo (our little devil), have a look to the post just above!

CHOO CHOO, next stop, denial station!!! ;D ;D ;D

[NorthStar]

He's been made! ...Again!?! ;D ...Train derailment! Watch out!

[NorthStar]

Hammerhead, you remember when you asked me about the fans?

Here's a picture that showed a little bit on one of those side fans (like I said to you before they are both enclosed inside those two large side metal boxes that are directly under those two additional side transformers; but you can see from where they are taking the air from the opening on the side walls (4 square holes with a dim view of the fan inside).
It is also well documented on some brochures and specs plus features information.
{Those two same fans (90 mm) are also present on all those models: 805, 875, 905, 876, 906, 1007, 3007, 5007, 3008 & 5008; and in the exact same configuration.}



_______________________________


Now, do you also remember that I told you there were four (4) transformers all together, which included a smaller one near the back?

Can you see it in this picture? (It is at the top center of the picture below those grey wires, at the end of the red & white wires; a small EI core transformer).

* This picture was taken from the 875:


* And here's another picture taken this time from the 5008 (you can see it there too):


>>> The four (4) transformers are present in those models: the 905, 906, 3007, 5007, 3008 & 5008.

_______________________________

And this picture is only to show the value of the two main caps present in the 875 model (also the same caps were used in the 805):



>>> After that Onkyo used 18,000uF caps in their top receivers, which includes the 905, 876, 906, 1007, 3007 & 3008; and finally 22,000uF ones strictly in the 5007 and 5008 models; their 9-channel Top Guns. And I believe that their voltage value was slightly increased to 75Volts (from 71Volts prior); but their temperature ratings remain the same (85 degree Celsius).

_______________________________

=>=>=> The biggest caps I've seen before were from my Marantz SR-18 receiver (also in the SR-18EX and SR-14EX); they are rated at 56,000uF each! And two of them of course.
And probably also in the SR9300 and SR9600 receivers.
All of those above Marantz receivers were in the 50+ pounds range (closer to 55), and all have a large Toroidal main transformer. ...Total main capacitance (M) is 112,000uF!

----------------------

And the Denon AVR-5805 (as well the 5805 MKII & 5805CI) has four (4) 33,000uF caps. It weights 97 pounds and is over 11 inches high! Total Microfarads (M) main capacitance is 132,000uF, inside a receiver! And it has secondary capacitance as well, which would amount for even more!

~ Yeah, I do luv numbers as well, and I got all the Lab Tests from all those receivers mentioned here above and a zillion more!

Lol, just look at the not too old Pioneer Elite SC-09TX receiver and its lab tests! Ouch! Over 500 watts into 4 Ohm loads with 2 channels driven! And still pumping 200 watts (0.1% THD) with seven channels driven continuously (8 Ohms)! And that's a receiver, and not a multichannel power amplifier!
...And it has ten (10) internal power amps! Lol!

Alright, enough for one day. ...Stay tuned same channel same time tomorrow for more... ......... jk ;D

[NorthStar]

...And sorry ntrain, but it seems to me that "choo choo" suits you just fine! ;D

[mathguy]

Well as long as LOTR is answering so many questions ( and with great enthusiasm I might add ), I thought I would ask this question:

LOTR, is the preamp voltage output on the newer Onkyo's or Denon's or heck the Pioneers sufficient to drive my LPA-1? Somewhere I read that the preamp voltage output is a measly 1 Volt which would not be sufficient.

Thank you kind sir.

( Apologies for hijacking this thread [ kind of ] )

[Deleted]

Feb 5, 2011 23:06:03 GMT -5 mathguy said:

Well as long as LOTR is answering so many questions ( and with great enthusiasm I might add ), I thought I would ask this question:

LOTR, is the preamp voltage output on the newer Onkyo's or Denon's or heck the Pioneers sufficient to drive my LPA-1? Somewhere I read that the preamp voltage output is a measly 1 Volt which would not be sufficient.

Thank you kind sir.

( Apologies for hijacking this thread [ kind of ] )

I know that the denons are fine. I know of lots of people running emo amps off their onkyo gear too, so I'd imagine they are fine as well. I have no idea about the pio's though. I think they are really nice looking, and seem to have all the bells and whistles but I've never owned one.

[NorthStar]

Feb 5, 2011 23:06:03 GMT -5 mathguy said:

Well as long as LOTR is answering so many questions ( and with great enthusiasm I might add ), I thought I would ask this question:

LOTR, is the preamp voltage output on the newer Onkyo's or Denon's or heck the Pioneers sufficient to drive my LPA-1? Somewhere I read that the preamp voltage output is a measly 1 Volt which would not be sufficient.

Thank you kind sir.

( Apologies for hijacking this thread [ kind of ] )

It's cool man! You want 2 Volts. And usually the Denons (better ones) have it and more.
I wouldn't trust lower end Pioneer receivers! ...Pioneer Elites should be fine.
And I think the Onkyos shoud be fine above the 700 series, duh! (There aren't preouts in the 600 series!)

But "Audioholics" is not reviewing many Onkyos these days if you noticed. And "Secrets" don't even do those tests anymore! ...And I miss the mag called "Audio".
By the way, what you read regarding the "measly 1 Volt" was from Audioholics!
-> Can't remember exactly which receiver though, perhaps a Pioneer one, just not sure (but I can found out easily if you want to).

This is a total new world than what it used to be!
And your question is a very important one!
Why reviewers or lab testers don't give us this important piece of information? Beats me man! ...I guess it must be OK if they have Preouts in the first place, but it ain't always the case! It's like "Buyer Beware!"
If I look in my manuals, in the specs section at the end, I found not much at all! The only closest thing is "Output Level and Impedance" -> ...LINE = 200 mV/47 KOhms. That's it, nothing there at all! That's for my 876 by the way.
I got other manuals too from other manufacturers but even if it is indicated what tells me that it is accurate?
{When they do give you a spec about it, they usually give you 2 Volts.}
...And I've seen some Denons give you more than 4 Volts on the lab tests (The 4806 I believe from Secrets, tested with 6.34 volts RMS Output Voltage at Pre-Out. And the 4306 with 6.25 volts RMS).
...Then the Yamaha 4600 ($1,900) tested at giving 1.72 volts (so didn't make the full cut of 2 Volts). Plus that Yammy (on Power tests) into 5 channels produced only 38.3 watts at 1 Khz with 1% THD (8 Ohms)!

So, the best suggestion that I got for you is to simply get a pre/pro, and forget about a receiver because you want to add external amp(s). ;D
That way you don't mess around!
Besides, that's why they make pre/pros!

Receivers, nowadays, are mainly made for Internet surfing, USB sticks, i-Pods, firmware updates, music from the Internet radios, MP3 players (are they still making those?), cell phones to use as your remote control, Apples this, Windows that, and what have you? I-Wonder too.

I wish I could help you out, but I don't have the gear to perform those tests and besides I'm not interested much in this from a receiver, myself.
NOW, I know that more and more people are doing just that, but it seems to me that they are all happy, so that must mean somethin' good is happening and that the Voltage must be up to making the cut! I think you have much better chance with a top tier receiver than a lower one. But I simply don't know fo sur without specs that are accurate or lab tests that were performed specifically for that very reason (Preamp Voltage Output of no less than 2 Volts)! I just don't know in most of our recent receivers! I wish!...

Conclusion: With a Top receiver (top tier), go ahead. But test it first in your own setup with the assurance that you can return it.
With a lower end one, it's at your own risk, and me personally, I wouldn't even touch it!

Cheers,
Bob

[ntrain42]

Lord Billy Bob Rob...........I stand corrected. Just opened up my 906, a pair of 18,000uf caps were staring right at me. One looked sad though.

[ntrain42]

TO LOTR

I want to post a public apology to Bob concerning my previous posts about LOTR and the Onkyo TX-NR906, AVR. Although I received confirmation of my information directly from the person (who *bleep*in knows?) who answered the Onkyo phone, it was still incorrect. I could have called back and talked to the cute sounding receptionist(I bet she had a big "rack" ;D ) or a knowledgeable Integra/Onkyo rep and I did not. I had suspicions that this and other issues that LOTR had posted about where questionable but that is a different discussion and my posts were uncalled for.

Bob, I was wrong and I'm sorry for my posts about this issue!

As a side note and unrelated to the cap size issue, I had already decided to stop posting at the Lounge for personal reasons about the same time as the Emo AVR threads were progressing. Here is not the place to bring up insanity related issues. Just to say that I find my stress level at times getting too high. I have been harassed in PM's(or maybe it was those voices talking to me again?) by a few members over the last year or more, both as a know it all and as a member. Yes, I do take these seriously and they were completely inappropriate. Nothing was done by Admin to properly correct this situation IMO. I still appreciate Emotiva, their great products and the many fine folks here at the Lounge. I will continue to lurk here and look for information about my long awaited XPR-5.

All The Best,
Andrew



PS: I worked long and hard on this public apology so please understand its 100% sincere to the full extent of the word and meaning! ;D

[Deleted]

You gotta do, what you gotta do. I think I may miss our daily arguments ;D

[iceman66]

Feb 6, 2011 12:59:47 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

TO LOTR

I want to post a public apology to Bob concerning my previous posts about LOTR and the Onkyo TX-NR906, AVR. Although I received confirmation of my information directly from the person (who *bleep*in knows?) who answered the Onkyo phone, it was still incorrect. I could have called back and talked to the cute sounding receptionist(I bet she had a big "rack" ;D ) or a knowledgeable Integra/Onkyo rep and I did not. I had suspicions that this and other issues that LOTR had posted about where questionable but that is a different discussion and my posts were uncalled for.

Bob, I was wrong and I'm sorry for my posts about this issue!

As a side note and unrelated to the cap size issue, I had already decided to stop posting at the Lounge for personal reasons about the same time as the Emo AVR threads were progressing. Here is not the place to bring up insanity related issues. Just to say that I find my stress level at times getting too high. I have been harassed in PM's(or maybe it was those voices talking to me again?) by a few members over the last year or more, both as a know it all and as a member. Yes, I do take these seriously and they were completely inappropriate. Nothing was done by Admin to properly correct this situation IMO. I still appreciate Emotiva, their great products and the many fine folks here at the Lounge. I will continue to lurk here and look for information about my long awaited XPR-5.

All The Best,
Andrew



PS: I worked long and hard on this public apology so please understand its 100% sincere to the full extent of the word and meaning! ;D

It will be a lot less interesting around here without you, hope you reconsider and eventually return

[ntrain42]

LOL! What me leave? LOL!

[DYohn]

Feb 6, 2011 14:07:30 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

LOL! What me leave? LOL!

Ah. Your self-imposed humility and exile lasted what, four minutes?

[ntrain42]

Feb 6, 2011 14:27:18 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Feb 6, 2011 14:07:30 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

LOL! What me leave? LOL!

Ah. Your self-imposed humility and exile lasted what, four minutes?

LOL! Wow, I guess that post went over everybodies head, LOL! ;D

David, you know I couldn't leave you guys alone here to fend for yerselves. Who else is gonna fly my croc?

[iceman66]

Feb 6, 2011 14:31:07 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Feb 6, 2011 14:27:18 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Ah. Your self-imposed humility and exile lasted what, four minutes?

LOL! Wow, I guess that post went over everybodies head, LOL! ;D

David, you know I couldn't leave you guys alone here to fend for yerselves. Who else is gonna fly my croc?

Welcome back Chuckie er, um, Ntrain.