Denon 4311ci vs Onkyo 5008

[Deleted]

When do the new Onkyos come out? I know there is always talk around March but I haven't read anything yet as to whats going to be new. I know the Denons come out late spring, early summer but i've not read anything about the onkyos.

[NorthStar]

Feb 3, 2011 15:44:11 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Lord, the 905/906 uses 4 output devices per channel as you stated(7 amp channels in total). But I think the 5007/5008 uses 2 slightly larger output devices per channel(9 total) instead of 4 smaller ones. To cram in 2 extra channels while using the same PS ratings would probably eqaute to a bit less power per channel in rms power assuming all channels driven. I gotta get my hands on a 5007/5008 real soon so I can pull one apart. Though thanks for pulling those pics. Great to show how well laid out and built the top Onkyo model is.

Andrew, Bob or Robear (Robert) is fine! Lord sounds too pretentious, it's just a movie, a username.

True, when I described the output devices (power transistors) from my above post, I was referring to the picture, as you can see the top of them from it (14 of them) and that picture only refers to the 905 (and 906). But the 805, 875 and 876 have also a very similar design and also a total of 28 output devices each for their 7 channels.

On the picture of the 5007 you can see 9 of them, and there are 9 more at the bottom, for a total of 18 EXTRA LARGE sized output devices with High Current, for 9 channels (same as in the 5008, 3008, 3007, 1007, and perhaps too in the 1008).

* Most receivers on the market use 2 output devices per channel, even the Denon AVR-5805 (MKII & CI) -> remember that one?
I believe if my memory is still reliable (regarding the 5805).
...But I can look it up to confirm.

_____________________

And true, since Denon and Onkyo/Integra came up with 9-channel receivers, they implemented their own power limiters.
And that is to protect their products, in case someone decided to run all the 9 channels together (simultaneously, full range) with Music using the 9-channel Stereo mode!
Protective measure that makes common sense and clears you out of possible damages!

And that is exactly what Hammerhead is concern about.

Well Hammerhead, a vast number of 7-channel receivers have also a power limiter (remember, 2 output devices per channel in 99% of them), and these are from Yamahas, Pioneers, Onkyos, Integras, Sherwood Newcastles, NADs, Harman Kardons, Denons, Arcams, ...basically ALL of them! And that's for 7 channels!
So now the 9-channel ones ALL have that circuit implemented by the manufacturers in their own specific ways!

And the receivers that don't have that; they clip and they sound harsh when stressed with less power!

I listen to the radio everyday from different electronics in my home, and my average listening volume level is about between 0.01 and 0.1 watt!
Only 1 watt with 3 watts on peaks, is VERY LOUD! Too loud for me.
...Got many audio level meters at home.
{Only get there in my main system when real serious about live bands in my living room.}

Just forget 100, 50, 25 watts RMS continuous into 5, 7, or 9 channels! It's the dynamic peaks that counts! And I HATE compressed dynamics! ...I'm talking about those bad CD recordings (generally rock, pop, heavy metal music...).

Would you run 9 speakers full range at full power (11 o'clock+) from a receiver? And without a sub?
I tell you what; even the people that don't, still get 9 monoblocks! ...And you know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, the physics still apply today.

Audio Nirvana, or the Holy Grail, is an unlimited reservoir of pure, unaltered power, without any distortion, noise, and cracks on the floor, ceiling and walls! Right from the instruments played by the musicians and recorded in studios where it was made; from the microphones, through the cables, to the recording consoles, to their zillion of internal electronics, to the studio transfers, to the masterings, to the 'detox centers', to the media manufacturers, to your CD player, through your interconnects, to your preamp, to more interconnects, to tour amp, through your speaker wires, to your speaker crossovers, to your speaker drivers and then to your room, your walls, your ceiling and your floor (without cracks), and finally to your ears!
...And I forgot about one hundred more places where those audio signals have been through; like the DSP chips, DACs, and all those little tiny electrical and digital and your AC wall current, and the AC wall current of the studios, and the capsule of the mics, and the various connectors of the cables and wires, and resitors and encaptors, tractors, detractors, train stations, terrorrist attacks, lights sharing, fridge sharing, humidifier sharing, neighbors power supply sharing, computers sharing, street blocks sharing, city power sharing, state power sharing, and all that Jazz sharing...

...Only in Heaven!


;D

[NorthStar]

Please, no more people calling me Lord, or LOTR; name's Bob!
Hammerhead? Aziz? And whoever else is reading this.

Robert (Robear) for the Frenchmen!

* About you Andrew? Ntrain or choo choo? ;D

[NorthStar]

Feb 3, 2011 15:53:41 GMT -5 hammmerhead said:

Feb 3, 2011 15:44:11 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Lord, the 905/906 uses 4 output devices per channel as you stated(7 amp channels in total). But I think the 5007/5008 uses 2 slightly larger output devices per channel(9 total) instead of 4 smaller ones. To cram in 2 extra channels while using the same PS ratings would probably eqaute to a bit less power per channel in rms power assuming all channels driven. I gotta get my hands on a 5007/5008 real soon so I can pull one apart. Though thanks for pulling those pics. Great to show how well laid out and built the top Onkyo model is.

Yeah, the 5007,5008 has some tall caps. You wouldnt know they were that tall with the common photos I have seen. I wonder if those caps are 11,000 Fu each or 22,000 Fu each. Since the I just read the XPA-5 has 66000 Fu total Im guessing the 5008 has just 22000Fu total.

Two caps, 22,000uF each (total = 44,000uF). ...And 75 Volts rating. Plus additional secondary caps (could totaled perhaps 75,000 uF, or more...).

[NorthStar]

Feb 3, 2011 18:39:23 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

When do the new Onkyos come out? I know there is always talk around March but I haven't read anything yet as to whats going to be new. I know the Denons come out late spring, early summer but i've not read anything about the onkyos.

First ones to come up are in late Spring, to early Summer, up to early Fall and mid-Fall.

The Monsters come in the Fall. ...Time to buy the 5008, at cost!

[hammmerhead]

Feb 3, 2011 22:18:01 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Feb 3, 2011 15:53:41 GMT -5 hammmerhead said:

Yeah, the 5007,5008 has some tall caps. You wouldnt know they were that tall with the common photos I have seen. I wonder if those caps are 11,000 Fu each or 22,000 Fu each. Since the I just read the XPA-5 has 66000 Fu total Im guessing the 5008 has just 22000Fu total.

Two caps, 22,000uF each (total = 44,000uF). ...And 75 Volts rating. Plus additional secondary caps (could totaled perhaps 75,000 uF, or more...).

Hey, so it has roughly has 2/3 the capacity of the XPA-5, but has almost double the channels. Still doesnt sound too shabby for an AVR.

Just to level the playing field as far as bench tests go. I was digging through some of the other tests and noticed this. Yes, its the numbers for the beloved, "workhorse" 4810. 5 channels looks great, but man it went south from there. This may be the most dismal 7 chanel output I have viewed over there.



DENON 4810CI

HT Labs Measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1 percent distortion at 123.5 watts
1 percent distortion at 148.2 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1 percent distortion at 30.9 watts
1 percent distortion at 36.0 watts (Protection Engages)

Analog frequency response in Pure Direct mode:
–0.18 dB at 10 Hz
–0.05 dB at 20 Hz
–0.02 dB at 20 kHz
–2.73 dB at 50 kHz

Analog frequency response with stereo signal processing:
–1.30 dB at 10 Hz
–0.36 dB at 20 Hz
–0.20 dB at 20 kHz
–29.01 dB at 50 kHz

[NorthStar]

^ Here you go, what did I tell you!

[hammmerhead]

Feb 3, 2011 22:35:43 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

^ Here you go, what did I tell you!

Oh the plot thickens...

Check out the lessor 4310 numbers. It seems like those two extra channels 7 vs 9 are creating a big hump for the 9 channel AVR's to get over. Ill take a 104 watts X 7 any day of the week. Do people really need nine channels??? Geez that sure seems like separates territory to me. It will be interesting to see if the 4311 can pull off these number or suffer like the rest.

DENON 4310

HT Labs Measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 113.8 watts
1% distortion at 131.0 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 104.6 watts
1% distortion at 116.6 watts

Analog frequency response in Pure Direct mode:
–0.51 dB at 10 Hz
–0.14 dB at 20 Hz
–0.03 dB at 20 kHz
–2.70 dB at 50 kHz

[NorthStar]

The Denon 4311 will probably choke with seven channels driven, and certainly with nine!
It might even start to go down with five channels driven (or not, remains to be seen).

But anyway, people that get the 4311 pick it for:

* Preamp mode (to add external amplifiers like Emotiva).
* Its GUI good looks.
* The Ethernet port with its multitude of Internet music streaming access (and i-Apple).
* All its various Audio parameter adjustments.
* The good looking front face.
* Its Audyssey EQ graphs and its 'Flat' curve audio mode (& XT32).
* The DENON's name (proudness ownership).

_________________________

And the people that choose the Onkyos are for:

* Audio, Raw Power, Tight Bass, Value, Latest Technologies (Audyssey 32, THX, ISF...), Build Quality & Parts, Easy Setup, Reliability, and Overall Great Performance, and its bad a$$!

_________________________

And the people that do calculate from the Lab Tests are:

* From both camps and trying to make a just balance between numbers and real world performance!
-> That includes you, me, Andrew, him, her, them, and many of us!

_________________________

And the people that go ONLY from the Lab Tests are:

* Hmmm... Tough one! Do I? Nope! Do you?
~ Well, with the newer 9-channel (actual internal integrated amps) receivers; they ALL have a circuit power limiter! ...The Onkyos, and the Denons! ...And for many people the point is TOTALLY moot, as they will at least add a Stereo amp or a Five-channel amp!
With The Onkyos you can run only 9 channels together.
With the newer Denons, 11!

{Onkyo is getting into 11 channels as well; you'll see it's comin'.}
...And next is 13, with two straight above head Height channels!

_________________________

Me? I'd go for Emotiva amps, and a trouble-free pre/pro, or one that sounds great and that I can live with some compromises; but not too many, only a very few!
And I'm also me! And not you! And not him! And not her! And not them!

Ti-li-dam...

...And I like them all for all and for one!

All that I could be in this life is only a small fraction of the global ensemble!

[ ........... ] -> This space is reserved for future guests (emoticons).

[hammmerhead]

11 channels, 13 channels!
I guess the whole more and bigger thing is always good for development. Any who doesnt like bigger, faster, etc.



Heck if I ran 9 channels I would have speakers butted side by side down my wall! But my surrounds arent very small. I guess the whole more and bigger thing is always good.

Here is a pic of my surrounds.

[ntrain42]

Feb 3, 2011 22:14:24 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Please, no more people calling me Lord, or LOTR; name's Bob!
Hammerhead? Aziz? And whoever else is reading this.

Robert (Robear) for the Frenchmen!

* About you Andrew? Ntrain or choo choo? ;D

Ntrain,Andrew is fine...........choo choo..........nah, but if you can come up with something better...........shouldn't be too hard.

[ntrain42]

Feb 3, 2011 22:10:15 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Feb 3, 2011 15:44:11 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Lord, the 905/906 uses 4 output devices per channel as you stated(7 amp channels in total). But I think the 5007/5008 uses 2 slightly larger output devices per channel(9 total) instead of 4 smaller ones. To cram in 2 extra channels while using the same PS ratings would probably eqaute to a bit less power per channel in rms power assuming all channels driven. I gotta get my hands on a 5007/5008 real soon so I can pull one apart. Though thanks for pulling those pics. Great to show how well laid out and built the top Onkyo model is.

Andrew, Bob or Robear (Robert) is fine! Lord sounds too pretentious, it's just a movie, a username.

True, when I described the output devices (power transistors) from my above post, I was referring to the picture, as you can see the top of them from it (14 of them) and that picture only refers to the 905 (and 906). But the 805, 875 and 876 have also a very similar design and also a total of 28 output devices each for their 7 channels.

On the picture of the 5007 you can see 9 of them, and there are 9 more at the bottom, for a total of 18 EXTRA LARGE sized output devices with High Current, for 9 channels (same as in the 5008, 3008, 3007, 1007, and perhaps too in the 1008).

* Most receivers on the market use 2 output devices per channel, even the Denon AVR-5805 (MKII & CI) -> remember that one?
I believe if my memory is still reliable (regarding the 5805).
...But I can look it up to confirm.

_____________________

And true, since Denon and Onkyo/Integra came up with 9-channel receivers, they implemented their own power limiters.
And that is to protect their products, in case someone decided to run all the 9 channels together (simultaneously, full range) with Music using the 9-channel Stereo mode!
Protective measure that makes common sense and clears you out of possible damages!

And that is exactly what Hammerhead is concern about.

Well Hammerhead, a vast number of 7-channel receivers have also a power limiter (remember, 2 output devices per channel in 99% of them), and these are from Yamahas, Pioneers, Onkyos, Integras, Sherwood Newcastles, NADs, Harman Kardons, Denons, Arcams, ...basically ALL of them! And that's for 7 channels!
So now the 9-channel ones ALL have that circuit implemented by the manufacturers in their own specific ways!

And the receivers that don't have that; they clip and they sound harsh when stressed with less power!

I listen to the radio everyday from different electronics in my home, and my average listening volume level is about between 0.01 and 0.1 watt!
Only 1 watt with 3 watts on peaks, is VERY LOUD! Too loud for me.
...Got many audio level meters at home.
{Only get there in my main system when real serious about live bands in my living room.}

Just forget 100, 50, 25 watts RMS continuous into 5, 7, or 9 channels! It's the dynamic peaks that counts! And I HATE compressed dynamics! ...I'm talking about those bad CD recordings (generally rock, pop, heavy metal music...).

Would you run 9 speakers full range at full power (11 o'clock+) from a receiver? And without a sub?
I tell you what; even the people that don't, still get 9 monoblocks! ...And you know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, the physics still apply today.

Audio Nirvana, or the Holy Grail, is an unlimited reservoir of pure, unaltered power, without any distortion, noise, and cracks on the floor, ceiling and walls! Right from the instruments played by the musicians and recorded in studios where it was made; from the microphones, through the cables, to the recording consoles, to their zillion of internal electronics, to the studio transfers, to the masterings, to the 'detox centers', to the media manufacturers, to your CD player, through your interconnects, to your preamp, to more interconnects, to tour amp, through your speaker wires, to your speaker crossovers, to your speaker drivers and then to your room, your walls, your ceiling and your floor (without cracks), and finally to your ears!
...And I forgot about one hundred more places where those audio signals have been through; like the DSP chips, DACs, and all those little tiny electrical and digital and your AC wall current, and the AC wall current of the studios, and the capsule of the mics, and the various connectors of the cables and wires, and resitors and encaptors, tractors, detractors, train stations, terrorrist attacks, lights sharing, fridge sharing, humidifier sharing, neighbors power supply sharing, computers sharing, street blocks sharing, city power sharing, state power sharing, and all that Jazz sharing...

...Only in Heaven!


;D

Bob, I guess my question is what are the ratings of the output transistors for the 5007/5008 that uses 2 larger ones vs. that of the 4 smaller output devices on the 905/906?

I believe the older 905/906's 4 smaller combined devices have a higher output rating than the newer 5007/5008. It would make sense because the main Power supply/secondary caps are identical between all 4 models, but you have an extra 2 channels to power with the newer 5007/5008, which might be why the newer Onkyo AVR's arent putting out as much power per channel. Even 2 channel driven RMS power output is down for 8/4 ohms.

[NorthStar]

Feb 4, 2011 16:10:08 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Feb 3, 2011 22:14:24 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Please, no more people calling me Lord, or LOTR; name's Bob!
Hammerhead? Aziz? And whoever else is reading this.

Robert (Robear) for the Frenchmen!

* About you Andrew? Ntrain or choo choo? ;D

Ntrain,Andrew is fine...........choo choo..........nah, but if you can come up with something better...........shouldn't be too hard.

Andrew & ntrain are great names, and they are both your real name & your Lounge's username; so that's how I luv to address you by!

_________________

..... Me I don't mind LOTR or Lord once in a while, because it is indeed my Lounge's username (and also at all the other forums), but I found that if too many people and several times in a row call me that, I simply lost my own true identity! ...You know what I mean?
..... Don't get me wrong though, I chose that username because I love The LOTR Trilogy EE (Extended Edition), and in particular the last one, "The Return of the King" (ROTK),
and for me it is simply a manifestation for my satisfaction from that great Trilogy of what is LOTR.

..... I don't know Andrew, I'm not too sure, but I feel simply better when people call me by my true name. It rings right!

..... My real given name (by Mom & Dad) is Robert. My middle name is Andre (or Andrew in English, or Andre too; depending to who you're talking to).

..... But for the last 35 years I live in B.C. Canada, and I worked mainly with English speaking co-workers, and partied with them (only very few French speaking people from Quebec).

..... And I'm used to Bob; that's my name in English, and it's short and simple and cool too! ...Like Bob Dylan, Bob Marley, and many more... [Robert Kennedy was often simply called "Bob"; sounds very friendly and close, like a bear you hug! ]

..... And I luv French people (more from Quebec than France but that's for another time & space...).
{Just look at the thread where they only speak French; use your Google's bar "Translate" feature, and you'll see that I'm the same guy with even more humor and will go to extremes to help people.} => Over there, I usually signed Robert.

..... Lord sounds way too much above me, and LOTR sounds like a movie, a book, a story, a fantasy...
And LordOfTheRingsEE just sounds like a username!

..... What Rings true is simply Bob!
...In my heart, and in my soul.

* Sorry for the Off Topic.

[NorthStar]

Feb 4, 2011 16:21:02 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Feb 3, 2011 22:10:15 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Andrew, Bob or Robear (Robert) is fine! Lord sounds too pretentious, it's just a movie, a username.

True, when I described the output devices (power transistors) from my above post, I was referring to the picture, as you can see the top of them from it (14 of them) and that picture only refers to the 905 (and 906). But the 805, 875 and 876 have also a very similar design and also a total of 28 output devices each for their 7 channels.

On the picture of the 5007 you can see 9 of them, and there are 9 more at the bottom, for a total of 18 EXTRA LARGE sized output devices with High Current, for 9 channels (same as in the 5008, 3008, 3007, 1007, and perhaps too in the 1008).

* Most receivers on the market use 2 output devices per channel, even the Denon AVR-5805 (MKII & CI) -> remember that one?
I believe if my memory is still reliable (regarding the 5805).
...But I can look it up to confirm.

_____________________

And true, since Denon and Onkyo/Integra came up with 9-channel receivers, they implemented their own power limiters.
And that is to protect their products, in case someone decided to run all the 9 channels together (simultaneously, full range) with Music using the 9-channel Stereo mode!
Protective measure that makes common sense and clears you out of possible damages!

And that is exactly what Hammerhead is concern about.

Well Hammerhead, a vast number of 7-channel receivers have also a power limiter (remember, 2 output devices per channel in 99% of them), and these are from Yamahas, Pioneers, Onkyos, Integras, Sherwood Newcastles, NADs, Harman Kardons, Denons, Arcams, ...basically ALL of them! And that's for 7 channels!
So now the 9-channel ones ALL have that circuit implemented by the manufacturers in their own specific ways!

And the receivers that don't have that; they clip and they sound harsh when stressed with less power!

I listen to the radio everyday from different electronics in my home, and my average listening volume level is about between 0.01 and 0.1 watt!
Only 1 watt with 3 watts on peaks, is VERY LOUD! Too loud for me.
...Got many audio level meters at home.
{Only get there in my main system when real serious about live bands in my living room.}

Just forget 100, 50, 25 watts RMS continuous into 5, 7, or 9 channels! It's the dynamic peaks that counts! And I HATE compressed dynamics! ...I'm talking about those bad CD recordings (generally rock, pop, heavy metal music...).

Would you run 9 speakers full range at full power (11 o'clock+) from a receiver? And without a sub?
I tell you what; even the people that don't, still get 9 monoblocks! ...And you know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, the physics still apply today.

Audio Nirvana, or the Holy Grail, is an unlimited reservoir of pure, unaltered power, without any distortion, noise, and cracks on the floor, ceiling and walls! Right from the instruments played by the musicians and recorded in studios where it was made; from the microphones, through the cables, to the recording consoles, to their zillion of internal electronics, to the studio transfers, to the masterings, to the 'detox centers', to the media manufacturers, to your CD player, through your interconnects, to your preamp, to more interconnects, to tour amp, through your speaker wires, to your speaker crossovers, to your speaker drivers and then to your room, your walls, your ceiling and your floor (without cracks), and finally to your ears!
...And I forgot about one hundred more places where those audio signals have been through; like the DSP chips, DACs, and all those little tiny electrical and digital and your AC wall current, and the AC wall current of the studios, and the capsule of the mics, and the various connectors of the cables and wires, and resitors and encaptors, tractors, detractors, train stations, terrorrist attacks, lights sharing, fridge sharing, humidifier sharing, neighbors power supply sharing, computers sharing, street blocks sharing, city power sharing, state power sharing, and all that Jazz sharing...

...Only in Heaven!


;D

Bob, I guess my question is what are the ratings of the output transistors for the 5007/5008 that uses 2 larger ones vs. that of the 4 smaller output devices on the 905/906?

I believe the older 905/906's 4 smaller combined devices have a higher output rating than the newer 5007/5008. It would make sense because the main Power supply/secondary caps are identical between all 4 models, but you have an extra 2 channels to power with the newer 5007/5008, which might be why the newer Onkyo AVR's arent putting out as much power per channel. Even 2 channel driven RMS power output is down for 8/4 ohms.

Andrew, the output devices in the 905 and 906 are I believe rated at 140 watts each (maybe 130 watts).
The ones in the 5007 and 5008, perhaps at 150 watts each (I'm not too sure). But they are much much larger, even if there are only two per channel; instead of four in the 905 and 906.
...And they have higher Current capability.
All those complementary devices (output transistors) are Toshiba made. And the ones in the 905 and 906 are the 2sa 1962 and 2sc 5242 Toshiba triple-diffused devices (well known and well regarded).

*** But and also, the two main reservoir capacitors in the 905 and 906 are rated at 18,000uF (microfarads) each (71 Volts & 85 degree C).
But the ones in the 5007 and 5008 are rated at 22,000uF each (75 Volts & 85 degree C).
[The caps in the 805 and 875 are rated at 15,000uF each, and 71 Volts, and 85 degree Celsius.]

Andrew, I believe the 805, 875, 905, 876 and 906 were overbuilt for A/V receivers. But this is Onkyo's reputation! They've always praised themselves for Build Quality (big High Current transformers, large cap reservoirs, solid aluminum heatsinks, specially designed feet for best isolation, and other stuff of that sort).

- The 806, 807, and 808 were a step back from the 805.

- The 1007 was the true replacement of the 805.

- The 1008 was a step back from the 1007 and the true replacement for the 807, BUT, it added two more channels (9 instead of 7) over the 808 and few more features as well over the 808.
AND, in true reality, the 1008 is a step back to not only the 1007 but also to the 805!

- The 3007 and 3008 are the true replacements of the 876.
And in my humble opinion are, the 3008 especially, the very best value in today's A/V Receivers!

- The 5007 and 5008 are the Flaghip models, the Top Guns (with that nice big Toroidal, all gold plated jacks (rear & front), and few more delicacies like 32-bit/192 Khz Texas Instruments Burr-Brown PCM-1795 Dacs, and 22,000uF caps, instead of the 18,000uF ones from the 3007 and 3008)...

Andrew, the reason of the Lab Tests is very simple as I already mentioned before.
Onkyo for the first time since 2009, when they added two more channels in their top receivers, implemented a power limiter because of the more demanding voltage and current, and also to protect some of their customers for blowing up their receivers!
Furthermore, that's when they decided to use those Extra Large sized Toshiba output devices with Extra High Current capability!
But like we know, TWO now per channel!

Andrew, Onkyo is not the only manufacturer to do so; DENON is also doing it in their 9-channel A/V Receivers as well (differently but still with total output reduction into more channels driven simultaneously). And Yamaha is doing it too with their top guns, and with only 7 channels in them!!!

But Andrew, those A/V Receivers are not for people with dedicated Home Theater Rooms! They are for normal sized living rooms!

But I bet my underwears that those Onkyo 3007, 3008, 5007, and 5008 will be at ease with larger rooms! They are NOT THX Ultra2 Plus certified just for AIR! ...But for REAL demanding situations and rooms that coincide with it!

I luv big numbers as anyone else here, but I'm much too smart to fall into this trap and say no to those REAL WORLD PERFORMERS!
I would personally buy the Onkyo TX-NR5008 with ABSOLUTE & TOTAL CONFIDENCE! ...So the 3008 as well!
...And I am the BIGGEST 'NUMBER' person here on this EARTH!
'Number' as in the highest ones for POWER and very best ones for THD+N, S/N Ratio, Crosstalk (channel separation), Wide Frequency Response, Damping Factor, true Low Impedance results (my speakers really need that), High Current capability (over at least 50 Amps; and again my speakers demand that), very Linear Frequency across the Full Audio Range, reasonable Frequency Response in Digital (DSP) Audio mode, very Low Intermodulation Distortion, high Voltage capability from the Preouts, ... simply put: great Preamp section, great Amp section, great Video processing section, great Phono Preamp section, great Headphone Amp section, great Am/FM Tuner section, great Volume pot section, great Controls and Feel for the front panel display, the Buttons, the Rear with all the Jacks and Speaker Binding Posts, great organisation IN & OUT, Easy GUI, Easy access to the most important features on the Remote Control, Simple Ergonomics, NO (and I really mean that!) issue at ALL with ANY type of operations, Solid EVERYTHING, Easy to read Display from 15 feet or so, Low Display Dimming Light setting (or FULL Dimming) -> but I know tricks for the PERFECT DIMMING LIGHT!, great DACs (and the more the better), great DSP chips (and the more the better), BEST AUTOMATIC ROOM CALIBRATION AND EQUALIZATION out there (Audyssey does the trick good enough for me; with Movies anyway), excellent Video Processor chip with great Implementation (ISF bonus), NEW: THX Ultra2 Plus Certification (for the assurance of a great preamplifier & amplifier sections), ...And a zillion of other IMPORTANT REQUIREMENTS for me in my own personal life!
...And Features that truly make a beneficial difference Auditorily & Visually, and NOT Features that I don't need in my AUDIO/VIDEO room or are delegated to my Computer room, on my Internet surfing, or my Cell Phone (remote control), or my i-Phone, or my i-Pod, or my i-Apple, or my i-Windows, or my i-Wonder!

That's who I am, who I always have been, and who I always will be!

Money is not important, only PEACE is! (Peace of mind and Peace pure and simple)!

Andrew, you are one of the Sub expert here on this Forum, this Audio site, the Emotiva Lounge, among others; and also very well calibrated on several other electronic products; you have some vast knowledge in several departments of our magnificent hobby, you also have a great sense of humor, you are fun to communicate with, share ideas, informations, discoveries with; you bring a lot to the table, you are much more loved by many than truly hated by few, you are you, you are ntrain, the one and only;
...do you have any more requests that I might be able to help you out with?

Bob

* And the hell with the typos! ;D

[Deleted]

Feb 4, 2011 16:10:08 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Feb 3, 2011 22:14:24 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Please, no more people calling me Lord, or LOTR; name's Bob!
Hammerhead? Aziz? And whoever else is reading this.

Robert (Robear) for the Frenchmen!

* About you Andrew? Ntrain or choo choo? ;D

Ntrain,Andrew is fine...........choo choo..........nah, but if you can come up with something better...........shouldn't be too hard.

LOL sorry, choo choo is your name ;D

[Deleted]

I do really think that most people on the forums are using external amps anyways on their higher end units. I'm sure not everyone but if they are on here, chances are they will add or be adding an amp at one point making the amp selections moot.

[ntrain42]

Feb 5, 2011 8:24:19 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Feb 4, 2011 16:21:02 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Bob, I guess my question is what are the ratings of the output transistors for the 5007/5008 that uses 2 larger ones vs. that of the 4 smaller output devices on the 905/906?

I believe the older 905/906's 4 smaller combined devices have a higher output rating than the newer 5007/5008. It would make sense because the main Power supply/secondary caps are identical between all 4 models, but you have an extra 2 channels to power with the newer 5007/5008, which might be why the newer Onkyo AVR's arent putting out as much power per channel. Even 2 channel driven RMS power output is down for 8/4 ohms.

Andrew, the output devices in the 905 and 906 are I believe rated at 140 watts each (maybe 130 watts).
The ones in the 5007 and 5008, perhaps at 150 watts each (I'm not too sure). But they are much much larger, even if there are only two per channel; instead of four in the 905 and 906.
...And they have higher Current capability.
All those complementary devices (output transistors) are Toshiba made. And the ones in the 905 and 906 are the 2sa 1962 and 2sc 5242 Toshiba triple-diffused devices (well known and well regarded).

*** But and also, the two main reservoir capacitors in the 905 and 906 are rated at 18,000uF (microfarads) each (71 Volts & 85 degree C).
But the ones in the 5007 and 5008 are rated at 22,000uF each (75 Volts & 85 degree C).
[The caps in the 805 and 875 are rated at 15,000uF each, and 71 Volts, and 85 degree Celsius.]

Andrew, I believe the 805, 875, 905, 876 and 906 were overbuilt for A/V receivers. But this is Onkyo's reputation! Theyv always praise themselves for Build Quality (big High Current transformers, large cap reservoirs, solid aluminum heatsinks, specially designed feet for best isolation, and other stuff of that sort).

- The 806, 807, and 808 were a step back from the 805.

- The 1007 was the true replacement of the 805.

- The 1008 was a step back from the 1007 and the true replacement for the 807, BUT, it added two more channels (9 instead of 7) over the 808 and few more features as well over the 808.
AND, in true reality, the 1008 is a step back to not only the 1007 but also to the 805!

- The 3007 and 3008 are the true replacements of the 876.
And in my humble opinion are, the 3008 especially, the very best value in today's A/V Receivers!

- The 5007 and 5008 are the Flaghip models, the Top Guns (with that nice big Toroidal, all gold plated jacks (rear & front), and few more delicacies like 32-bit/192 Khz Texas Instruments Burr-Brown PCM-1795 Dacs, and 22,000uF caps, instead of the 18,000uF ones from the 3007 and 3008)...

Andrew, the reason of the Lab Tests is very simple as I already mentioned before.
Onkyo for the first time since 2009, when they added two more channels in their top receivers, implemented a power limiter because of the more demanding voltage and current, and also to protect some of their customers for blowing up their receivers!
Furthermore, that's when they decided to use those Extra Large sized Toshiba output devices with Extra High Current capability!
But like we know, TWO now per channel!

Andrew, Onkyo is not the only manufacturer to do so; DENON is also doing it in their 9-channel A/V Receivers as well (differently but still with total output reduction into more channels driven simultaneously). And Yamaha is doing it too with their top guns, and with only 7 channels in them!!!

But Andrew, those A/V Receivers are not for people with dedicated Home Theater Rooms! They are for normal sized living rooms!

But I bet my underwears that those Onkyo 3007, 3008, 5007, and 5008 will be at ease with larger rooms! They are NOT THX Ultra2 Plus certified just for AIR! ...But for REAL demanding situations and rooms that coincide with it!

I luv big numbers as anyone else here, but I'm much too smart to fall into this trap and say no to those REAL WORLD PERFORMERS!
I would personally buy the Onkyo TX-NR5008 with ABSOLUTE & TOTAL CONFIDENCE! ...So the 3008 as well!
...And I am the BIGGEST 'NUMBER' person here on this EARTH!
'Number' as in the highest ones for POWER and very best ones for THD+N, S/N Ratio, Crosstalk (channel separation), Wide Frequency Response, Damping Factor, true Low Impedance results (my speakers really need that), High Current capability (over at least 50 Amps; and again my speakers demand that), very Linear Frequency across the Full Audio Range, reasonable Frequency Response in Digital (DSP) Audio mode, very Low Intermodulation Distortion, high Voltage capability from the Preouts, ... simply put: great Preamp section, great Amp section, great Video processing section, great Phono Preamp section, great Headphone Amp section, great Am/FM Tuner section, great Volume pot section, great Controls and Feel for the front panel display, the Buttons, the Rear with all the Jacks and Speaker Binding Posts, great organisation IN & OUT, Easy GUI, Easy access to the most important features on the Remote Control, Simple Ergonomics, NO (and I really mean that!) issue at ALL with ANY type of operations, Solid EVERYTHING, Easy to read Display from 15 feet or so, Low Display Dimming Light setting (or FULL Dimming) -> but I know tricks for the PERFECT DIMMING LIGHT!, great DACs (and the more the better), great DSP chips (and the more the better), BEST AUTOMATIC ROOM CALIBRATION AND EQUALIZATION out there (Audyssey does the trick good enough for me; with Movies anyway), excellent Video Processor chip with great Implementation (ISF bonus), NEW: THX Ultra2 Plus Certification (for the assurance of a great preamplifier & amplifier sections), ...And a zillion of other IMPORTANT REQUIREMENTS for me in my own personal life!
...And Features that truly make a beneficial difference Auditorily & Visually, and NOT Features that I don't need in my AUDIO/VIDEO room or are delegated to my Computer room, on my Internet surfing, or my Cell Phone (remote control), or my i-Phone, or my i-Pod, or my i-Apple, or my i-Windows, or my i-Wonder!

That's who I am, who I always have been, and who I always will be!

Money is not important, only PEACE is! (Peace of mind and Peace pure and simple)!

Andrew, you are one of the Sub expert here on this Forum, this Audio site, the Emotiva Lounge, among others; and also very well calibrated on several other electronic products; you have some vast knowledge in several departments of our magnificent hobby, you also have a great sense of humor, you are fun to communicate with, share ideas, informations, discoveries with; you bring a lot to the table, you are much more loved by many than truly hated by few, you are you, you are ntrain, the one and only;
...do you have any more requests that I might be able to help you out with?

Bob

* And the hell with the typos! ;D

Your wrong on the capacitance on the 905/906, mine uses 22,000uf caps as well.

On the output devices I believe the 905/906's 4 smaller toshiba devices per channel have a higher rating than the 2 larger ones used per channel on the 5007/5008. Again this would explain why your not seeing as high an rms rating per channel or all channels driven. In other words they are spreading the power out over 9 channels vs. 7 on the older AVR's which would make sense on why the newer AVR's have a lower tested rating. Same basic ps and capacitance, just more channels now to power.

[NorthStar]

Feb 5, 2011 12:12:59 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

I do really think that most people on the forums are using external amps anyways on their higher end units. I'm sure not everyone but if they are on here, chances are they will add or be adding an amp at one point making the amp selections moot.

Absolutely! ...And that is what I also mentioned prior.

* But here's the thing: with some Onkyo receivers, you can get away with!

And the beauty in all of this is right here! Adding one, two, three, or more Emotiva amps is so inexpensive and fun that adding extra power simply contributes to that 'fun' experience! ;D

We're talking real DYNAMICS here, and dynamics is real Music, and real People as well!

Ever noticed how dynamic people are, here at the Lounge?

[Deleted]

Yes, I got sucked in. First the UMC-1, then the UPA-5, XPA-3, UPA-2, not too many, just right for active speakers all across the front. And you know what? Emo is the first real bargain I've ever been fortunate enough to get. I'm always looking for a good deal and usually I get taken and end up disappointed. So far this is not so with Emotiva.

[Deleted]

Ok, Bob. I'm just Theresa, never Teresa, Terry, Terri, Teri etc... My daughter's name is Margaret but she uses "Emi," after meeting a friend of mine whose name was Emi and who was a master/mistress of Dance, Dance, Revolution. I think my daughter has great taste in names.