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Post by roadrunner on Nov 24, 2009 0:52:53 GMT -5
Chuckienut,
I won't swear to it, but to the best of my memory, the ERS-212 has dual active 12" drivers. I can't remember ever seeing any mention of passive drivers with the earlier incarnations of this sub woofer.
I think that Emotiva is planning on putting the ERS series subs into production early in the new year. The pricing target for the ERS-212 dual 12" sub woofer was set at $999.00 when the prototypes were being discussed last year. Nothing further has been mentioned about what price will be set when they are finally released. These should be very interesting when they become available. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2009 2:14:09 GMT -5
Oh sure Ridgerunner Roadrunner, now you're starting to spark my interest in this new Emo sub! I'm trying to save up now on my retirees piddly little income for the XMC-1. Now you want to me to buy one of their subs too.
My hard drive just went out on my desktop. Anybody know if Emotiva makes computers? ;D
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Post by GreenKiwi on Nov 24, 2009 2:24:24 GMT -5
Was the 212 going to be a single unit with dual drivers? Or dual units? i.e. one separate amp and two separate sub units. (that was what I was hoping for...)
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Post by roadrunner on Nov 24, 2009 5:06:26 GMT -5
Was the 212 going to be a single unit with dual drivers? Or dual units? i.e. one separate amp and two separate sub units. (that was what I was hoping for...) Per your verbage... the ERS-212 will be dual units with one amp driving two separate sub units. This sub will have very intelligent graphical interface for tweaking the auto room calibration and EQ adjustments allowing you to see the impact of the changes you make. Sweeeet.... ;D
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2009 5:10:46 GMT -5
intelligent graphical interface That's what I need installed in my brain (if there is room). ;D
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Nov 24, 2009 6:07:20 GMT -5
The 212 is dual 12" - 2 x single 12" enclosures and both connect to a separate outboard amp/EQ box.
so the question is then, if you have 2 x separate "small box" subs, what is the low end extension etc. like versus a single "bigger box" sub.
I do not what to compromise on the low-end, pure SPL is not overly important to me, but I want properly EQed, tight "musical" (accurate) bass that goes low so you can feel the impact in a movie.
My current Monitor Audio ASW100 is really great sound quality wise, but does not go low enough to feel the impact of effects in movies. (Well not with the way my room is open to the kitchen/dining area - it might be a bit better in a smaller/sealed room). A single 10" in a small box definitely has low-end limitations.
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Post by audiodragon on Nov 25, 2009 18:48:04 GMT -5
I am not going to speculate on the sound of the Emotiva subs, but I have a Velodyne SPL-1200R which is similar concept. Small box with long excursion driver and high power amp, microprocessor controlled with driver feedback to minimize distortion, mic calibrated eq from the listening position.
The Velodyne sounds fantastic, very tight and musical, and it has good low frequency extension. It blends very easily with my B&W towers. If the Velodyne is any indication, the Emo subs will be phenominal, especially for the price.
I wanted a big box sub, one of the big HSUs. My wife said NO WAY IN HELL IS THAT GOING IN MY LIVING ROOM! I said no way in hell am I getting some little Bose bass box, so the Velodyne was a compromise. A VERY EXPENSIVE compromise. I wish the Emo subs had been out, I could have saved $500 and had the duals instead of a single.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 9:19:04 GMT -5
man, I really want one of these subs...I wish they get here soon
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ray
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Post by ray on Dec 5, 2009 17:03:59 GMT -5
I do plan on getting a pair to complement the rear end of my room. The dual Dynasty EPIKS are absolutely anchoring the front just fine~ !
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turbo
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Post by turbo on Dec 5, 2009 17:36:39 GMT -5
I've held out for over a year and a half for these but I don't think I am going to wait much longer. The last info we received was to have something before Christmas. Now with the all the excitement over the umc1.... subs has disappeared off the radar again. I know release dates aren't a popular thing around here but a hint or two would be nice.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Dec 6, 2009 7:19:35 GMT -5
Agreed - I am hoping that once the UMC-1s are shipping in volume, we will hear something - maybe even a new year surprise ...
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Dec 6, 2009 23:08:04 GMT -5
I see an interesting trend in HT and audio as far as subs go. The trend is toward smaller sub enclosure sizes. Now that is fine with me if there is a space problem or a small footprint requirement. However, one should realize that sub designers have to attempt to bend the laws of physics when producing smaller subs. All things being equal, the larger sub enclosure allows for louder bass with lower extension at lower distortion. The designer that goes with the smaller sub enclosure has to make compensations by using longer excursion drivers, heavier magnets and higher power amplifiers. Many here are familiar with the mini cube subs with their 2700 watts amplifiers (like the Sunfire sub) , extremely long excursion drivers and sub enclosure that are barely larger than the diameter of the driver. Other designers have produced some subs in the middle range, size wise. Many of these have 10"-12" drivers in the 15 x 15 x 15 enclosure size with 1000 watts or more of power. These still require some compromises. They might be relatively flat from 100-150Hz on down to 20Hz. However, the output level is limited many times to the 95-105dB's level with fairly high distortion. As you might know from reading some of my posts I am a fan of big box subs that provide top performance with amps in the 500 watt range. I find it ironic that so many people pass up the great benefits of a small bookshelf/large sub combination like the ERM-1 or ERM-6.2 with a large sub and instead insist on a large tower like the 8.3. The 8.3 is the ultimate Emo speaker. However, then when they go to choose a sub they opt for a mini cube version. Why choose a great speaker then compromise performance in the lower bass with a small sub? There is a very revealing test in the September 2009 issue of S&V Magazine. They tested 3 large box subs; Axiom EP600v2, PBS 500 and the SVS PB12-plus. The also tested 3 smaller box subs; Bag End PD12E-1 (not very small), JL Audio Fathom f112 and the Velodyne Optimum-12. Although they never go too far in choosing a winner as to not offend any of the brands, it was obvious that the SVS was the clear winner by a big margin especially when considering price/performance. It was from $671 to $1661 cheaper than the other five subs. The SVS was $1139 versus the gorgeous JL f112 at $2800. You might know that the JL f112 gets rave reviews here at at other forums. It also has 1500 watts and a 18.5 x 15 x 17.5 cabinet size (4856 cu in and 115 lbs). The SVS has 525 watts and a 21 x 19 x 25 cabinet size (9975 cu in and 127 lbs). The f112 hit a very loud maximum of 118.2 dB's but at 63Hz. At 22.5 Hz and 10% distortion it only reached 95.4 Hz. The SVS delivered its maximum output of 114.8dB's at 20Hz! From 20-80Hz it was between 108.7 and 114.8Hz at 10% distortion. Now that is real subwoofer performance! I know at this time the details are sparse. However, it appears that the new Emotiva subs might be in this general medium size category of subs. I'm sure these subs with a sophisticated EQ system will appeal to many and outperform any other sub in their class. I do hope that Emotiva down the road will also consider offering a larger no-holds barred ultimate performance sub with a 12" or so driver that provides at least 15-18Hz to 100-125Hz levels under 10% distortion at 105-110dB levels or louder. A fairly flexible EQ system would be essential. This would appeal to us extra low bass nuts (maybe one of the new Emo subs will match this type of performance). Just thoughts for your consideration. ;D ;D ;D PS: Someone just reminded me that he thought that the bigger of the two Emo subs would be a dual 12" sub (I should pay more attention in class!). That sounds interesting. I wonder if it has two active drivers or one is passive? THe JL f112 is not a true 1500 watt amplifier. It puts out peak 1500 watts at about 10% distortion. Its truely about 4-500 watts rms. But the kicker is that the 4-500 watt amplifier is couple to a rather inefficient subwoofer. When over driven the sub puts out decibels, but it isnt very clean. Honestly its overpriced and it underperforms. Id rather 2-4 smaller more efficient subs(and it would probably still be much cheaper vs. the fathom series)in parallel, producing more real world CLEAN bass vs. a single inefficient sub arrangement. Why the JL's get good reviews is beyond me. Must have to do with all the old car audio freaks from the 90's converting to home theatre now that they are older.
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Post by bigred7078 on Dec 6, 2009 23:32:25 GMT -5
I see an interesting trend in HT and audio as far as subs go. The trend is toward smaller sub enclosure sizes. Now that is fine with me if there is a space problem or a small footprint requirement. However, one should realize that sub designers have to attempt to bend the laws of physics when producing smaller subs. All things being equal, the larger sub enclosure allows for louder bass with lower extension at lower distortion. The designer that goes with the smaller sub enclosure has to make compensations by using longer excursion drivers, heavier magnets and higher power amplifiers. Many here are familiar with the mini cube subs with their 2700 watts amplifiers (like the Sunfire sub) , extremely long excursion drivers and sub enclosure that are barely larger than the diameter of the driver. Other designers have produced some subs in the middle range, size wise. Many of these have 10"-12" drivers in the 15 x 15 x 15 enclosure size with 1000 watts or more of power. These still require some compromises. They might be relatively flat from 100-150Hz on down to 20Hz. However, the output level is limited many times to the 95-105dB's level with fairly high distortion. As you might know from reading some of my posts I am a fan of big box subs that provide top performance with amps in the 500 watt range. I find it ironic that so many people pass up the great benefits of a small bookshelf/large sub combination like the ERM-1 or ERM-6.2 with a large sub and instead insist on a large tower like the 8.3. The 8.3 is the ultimate Emo speaker. However, then when they go to choose a sub they opt for a mini cube version. Why choose a great speaker then compromise performance in the lower bass with a small sub? There is a very revealing test in the September 2009 issue of S&V Magazine. They tested 3 large box subs; Axiom EP600v2, PBS 500 and the SVS PB12-plus. The also tested 3 smaller box subs; Bag End PD12E-1 (not very small), JL Audio Fathom f112 and the Velodyne Optimum-12. Although they never go too far in choosing a winner as to not offend any of the brands, it was obvious that the SVS was the clear winner by a big margin especially when considering price/performance. It was from $671 to $1661 cheaper than the other five subs. The SVS was $1139 versus the gorgeous JL f112 at $2800. You might know that the JL f112 gets rave reviews here at at other forums. It also has 1500 watts and a 18.5 x 15 x 17.5 cabinet size (4856 cu in and 115 lbs). The SVS has 525 watts and a 21 x 19 x 25 cabinet size (9975 cu in and 127 lbs). The f112 hit a very loud maximum of 118.2 dB's but at 63Hz. At 22.5 Hz and 10% distortion it only reached 95.4 Hz. The SVS delivered its maximum output of 114.8dB's at 20Hz! From 20-80Hz it was between 108.7 and 114.8Hz at 10% distortion. Now that is real subwoofer performance! I know at this time the details are sparse. However, it appears that the new Emotiva subs might be in this general medium size category of subs. I'm sure these subs with a sophisticated EQ system will appeal to many and outperform any other sub in their class. I do hope that Emotiva down the road will also consider offering a larger no-holds barred ultimate performance sub with a 12" or so driver that provides at least 15-18Hz to 100-125Hz levels under 10% distortion at 105-110dB levels or louder. A fairly flexible EQ system would be essential. This would appeal to us extra low bass nuts (maybe one of the new Emo subs will match this type of performance). Just thoughts for your consideration. ;D ;D ;D PS: Someone just reminded me that he thought that the bigger of the two Emo subs would be a dual 12" sub (I should pay more attention in class!). That sounds interesting. I wonder if it has two active drivers or one is passive? THe JL f112 is not a true 1500 watt amplifier. It puts out peak 1500 watts at about 10% distortion. Its truely about 4-500 watts rms. But the kicker is that the 4-500 watt amplifier is couple to a rather inefficient subwoofer. When over driven the sub puts out decibels, but it isnt very clean. Honestly its overpriced and it underperforms. Id rather 2-4 smaller more efficient subs(and it would probably still be much cheaper vs. the fathom series)in parallel, producing more real world CLEAN bass vs. a single inefficient sub arrangement. Why the JL's get good reviews is beyond me. Must have to do with all the old car audio freaks from the 90's converting to home theatre now that they are older. or maybe its because they sound great
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Dec 7, 2009 0:10:34 GMT -5
THe JL f112 is not a true 1500 watt amplifier. It puts out peak 1500 watts at about 10% distortion. Its truely about 4-500 watts rms. But the kicker is that the 4-500 watt amplifier is couple to a rather inefficient subwoofer. When over driven the sub puts out decibels, but it isnt very clean. Honestly its overpriced and it underperforms. Id rather 2-4 smaller more efficient subs(and it would probably still be much cheaper vs. the fathom series)in parallel, producing more real world CLEAN bass vs. a single inefficient sub arrangement. Why the JL's get good reviews is beyond me. Must have to do with all the old car audio freaks from the 90's converting to home theatre now that they are older. or maybe its because they sound great At low volumes ANY sub can sound good when set up correctly including the JL brand subs. But when you push the fathoms hard, they distort pretty quick and the mechanical noise from the driver becomes pretty obvious to those familiar with their limitations. Sounds "thunderous", but far from clean. Its very hard for alot of people to distinguish clean sub bass frequencies from distorted ones, one reason why some companies cheat/inflate the power specs for sub drivers. 1%, 10% distortion etc is harder to hear in the low frequencies than it is higher up in the frequency spectrum. Good rule of thumbs with subwoofers.......if you can physically see the driver moving in and out significantly, your most likely driving them too hard. For the asking price, too many better performing options out on the market, including offerings from ED, Epik, Revel, Rel, Paradigm, Kef etc...........
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Post by jmilton on Dec 7, 2009 7:45:16 GMT -5
JL F112....never read a bad review on it. Many reviewers have it as their benchmark reference sub: www.audiovideonews.com/onhometheater/20070701.htm"In fact, the Fathom JL f112 is the best subwoofer I’ve ever used. It exudes quality, from its elegant cabinetwork to the transparent way it handles whatever dynamic sounds you throw at it without any sense of strain. My long-term reference sub, the Sunfire Signature, now sounds anemic. I’m now spoiled for any other sub." - Wes Marshall
Having heard it, I would agree. Can't wait to see reviews on the Emotiva subs...my experience is, if you see the driver moving...it's doing it's job moving air. Most subs employ a long throw driver to achieve depth. The Earthquake Audio Super Nova moves at 14Hz, but is inaudible. But boy, can you feel it!
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Dec 7, 2009 13:10:54 GMT -5
JL F112....never read a bad review on it. Many reviewers have it as their benchmark reference sub: www.audiovideonews.com/onhometheater/20070701.htm"In fact, the Fathom JL f112 is the best subwoofer I’ve ever used. It exudes quality, from its elegant cabinetwork to the transparent way it handles whatever dynamic sounds you throw at it without any sense of strain. My long-term reference sub, the Sunfire Signature, now sounds anemic. I’m now spoiled for any other sub." - Wes Marshall
Having heard it, I would agree. Can't wait to see reviews on the Emotiva subs...my experience is, if you see the driver moving...it's doing it's job moving air. Most subs employ a long throw driver to achieve depth. The Earthquake Audio Super Nova moves at 14Hz, but is inaudible. But boy, can you feel it! I have always taken "COMMERCIAL/professional" reviews with a grain of salt. Many/most times there is financial bias/perks amongst other things(like a "reviewer" getting a free[or at a substantial reduced price well below wholesale cost] product out of doing a writeup, very common) They ain't worth much in my book at all. And their scope is very limited in the products they actually DO review. My old Revel Salons got "Stereophile"/"Speaker of the Year" award and many, many other review awards as well. Are they that good? No, not really. Good sounding speaker? Yes. But not worthy of any award in my book, nor their $15,00k retail price at the time. Ive heard and owned so many setups that were much better at the same price point and for thousands less(where you could buy a brand new car from the change left over literally). Instead of going off "reviews" I tend to go off of physical design specifications(Cabinet size, material, design orientation, quality and sensitivity of driver used, amp etc)as the basis for a good sounding product. And a little heads up for ya. Yep subs are meant to move air, and at lower frequencies they will tend to push out a little farther, but even at 20hz you shouldnt see large mechanical bursts from your driver. If you have to see your driver bounce in and out to get the output volume to fill your room correctly, your probably using too small of a diver/enclosure for the room size its in. With my bedroom HT for example. To get one single PSW2500 to give appreciable output in the 20-30hz range I have to have the gains up pretty high and the driver is maxing out(and beyond) its linear Xmax. Sounds "OK" but there is appreciable mechanical noise and distortion, even for those short bursts. Now when I have all 4 PSW2500 subs hooked up in parallel next to each other, the gains are turned down to almost 0 literally. I now have appreciable frequency extension down to about 15hz. And when a loud hard thounderios clap or explosion occurs, each of those drivers barely move, even on a 20=25hz hit. No distortion, the sound is extremely smooth even below the audible frequency. The room literally "shakes" without shaking. What makes good bass is cone space and proper enclosure volume couple with adequate power. How much is that F112? My 4 PSW2500's cost me about $1000 total at my cost. 4 very efficient 10" drivers couple to their own dedicated 250 watt rms class D amps(which never come close to their peak values), each in their own well designed sealed downfiring enclosures. For a fraction of the price, I get earth shaking bass(and extremely smooth and detailed low frequency response for music)with no signal or output distortion whatsoever for a fraction of the price of the f112. What are you getting for $2800? One single relatively inefficient 12" long throw(it has to be with a small enclosure to get decent low frequency extension) driver, a 420 watt rms class D plate amp(not 1500 watts, that rating is at an absurd 10% distortion) with a built in auto(its an auto adjustable single band parametric EQ), a braced mdf enclosure with a relatively cheap 2 stage laquer finish. Wow, what a bargain. To break it down further, the JL model 12" driver they are using costs the factory about $150 to produce, the plate amplifier another $150, the front eq panel and included mic $50, the MDF, primer,paint, feet,grill etc about $50 per unit, labor,electricity,mfg,marketing,advertising(this is the big one)etc, another $400, for a total of $800(and this is most likely a VERY HIGH estimate)to produce and ship out to a wholesale warehouse middleman, double the price roughly to $1400-1600, then the reseller/end dealer sells around retail for another $1200-1400. Where do I sign up? Hell for that you can get higher quality multiple sub assemblys(either DIY or built)from places like Elemental Design Audio or Epik Audio for a fraction of the price, with the money saved you can buy an Audio Control RTA 3051SE to tune your new sub and HT/music(and your car audio system if you have a nice one) system, buy a bottle of Petrone with a half Keg of Sammy to go along with it, fly your relatives in for the holidays and still pocket a few hundred bucks in your wallet. Just to put things in real perspective.
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Post by bigred7078 on Dec 7, 2009 13:45:45 GMT -5
you certainly like to "toot your own horn" dont you
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Dec 7, 2009 13:54:54 GMT -5
you certainly like to "toot your own horn" dont you LOL! Is that all you can state? Disagree with anything I say? Why not add something constructive to the conversation? For one who has a problem with me supposedly being condescending(which Im not, Im just commenting on posts, as this is a DISCUSSION BOARD)your sure one to post a smirk and condescending post on your own. Must be good to be able to throw stones eh Brutus? I mean you yourself and all others are here on this board why? Because you want good amplification/processing products for a relatively reasonable amount right? Why do you think you can get a good decent power amplifier for well under $1k? Because Emotiva has no salesroom floor, no advertising costs,no middleman, they make their amps overseas to reduce mfg. costs and in the end you get a product that performs relatively well thats actually affordable. How many people do you think would be on these boards and buying their products if they were charging triple or more through a reseller like most other audio companies? No where near as many thats for sure.
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Post by bigred7078 on Dec 7, 2009 14:01:05 GMT -5
you certainly like to "toot your own horn" dont you LOL! Is that all you can state? Disagree with anything I say? Why not add something constructive to the conversation? I mean you yourself and all others are here on this board why? Because you want good amplification/processing products for a relatively reasonable amount right? Why do you think you can get a good decent power amplifier for well under $1k? Because Emotiva has no salesroom floor, no advertising costs,no middleman, they make their amps overseas to reduce mfg. costs and in the end you get a product that performs relatively well thats actually affordable. How many people do you think would be on these boards and buying their products if they were charging triple or more through a reseller like most other audio companies? No where near as many thats for sure. excuse me, i didnt know i needed to prove myself to you as i have been a contributing member of this forum for a long time now. Ever since you joined this forum you have been turbo posting YOUR opinions in a very pompous way, that not only I noticed, but several other members including the Administrator had cited and told you to cool it. There is a line between being informative and being a self righteous ass who thinks his ideas and opinions are infallable. Perhaps you need to brush up on your social skills? Not sure, but every single one of your posts is thrown out in a argumentative manner. Again there is a proper and an inproper way to do this.
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