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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2013 14:47:29 GMT -5
Islandman, I honestly don't think you're gonna hear much difference, if any, between PCM and DSD. You must remember that the guys who proclaim the "huge" differences are the same ones who heard "jaw dropping" improvements when they bought that $1,000 power cord. Not credible, IMHO.
The fact of the matter is that the Oppo BDP-105 sounds abso-freakin'-lutely great and you will be very happy with it in your system...
-RW-
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2013 16:19:52 GMT -5
RW, most of the DSD advocates state that there is a subtle, but noticeable difference. Some say that the difference is just enough so that it makes it harder to go back and listen to PCM. Some describe the sound as having more discernible layers (whatever that means) and a silkiness to the upper mids and highs as well.
At first, I discounted ever getting the 105 based on the fact that I could not justify the extra expense for great analog audio, ESS chips, etc. But once I discovered MOG, computer music streaming via a netbook, FLAC, i.e., I started getting interested in the whole DAC thing. Now I am looking at the 105 at a different angle, and that being it's accessible DACs for computer audio. Being that most quality DACs are in the $800>$1200 range it makes the 105 not look nearly so expensive any more.
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Post by ribbonking on Mar 18, 2013 17:38:52 GMT -5
I've downloaded a nuimber of DSD and DSX music files from a couple of sites and have to say that I've heard a distinct difference in sound quality for the better. You can do a comparison at no cost if you go to the 2L.NO web site - same files in different formats. I use J. River software and it can now play DSD and DSX files after conversion to high resolution PCM on the fly. You can also download a sampler from thie Opus 3 Records site in Sweden for $12.99 shop.dsdfile.com/Of course, the initial recording quality has a major bearing as well. Blue Coast Records has samples and files for purchase. bluecoastrecords.com/formats/dsdWill be ordering a DSD capable DAC shortly to further explore. Most likely the TEAC UD-501 - its a lower cost point of entry for a DSD DAC From what I've seen and heard, starting with a seminar at last year's THE Show in Newport Beach, seems to me that DSD is for real. Its worth exploring, at least for me. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2013 17:55:04 GMT -5
>> RW, most of the DSD advocates state that there is a subtle, but noticeable difference. <<
Whatever. To my ears, everything I play thru my Oppo BDP-93 sounds so good that I do not sit there and play the "what-if" game. SACDs converted to PCM sound incredible. Never once have I said to myself "Self, this sounds really, really, really good. But I'm sure I'd be much happier, and my life complete, if only I could listen to DSD..."
And keep in mind that if you're gonna be using services like MOG (which I really like), you will be listening to 320k MP3 streaming - hardly the last word in hi-fidelity. Getting all hung up on DSD playback is just another game for the audiohpools to play, IMHO.
And, not to put too fine a point on it, but your system would benefit from much better speakers, the replacement of the HK receiver, and some room treatments FAR more than chasing after DSD playback. IMHO, your priorities are not in order...
-RW-
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Post by garym on Mar 18, 2013 18:42:27 GMT -5
Islandman, I honestly don't think you're gonna hear much difference, if any, between PCM and DSD. You must remember that the guys who proclaim the "huge" differences are the same ones who heard "jaw dropping" improvements when they bought that $1,000 power cord. Not credible, IMHO. I strongly suspect you're right. But then, I don't think there is any *measurable* or *objectively* audible difference between 192/24 and 44.1/16 streams either. Nonetheless, a truly "universal" player should be able to decode DSD. I suspect Oppo's next generation will do it. (I believe the Sabre chip they're now using will do it now. Might be only a firmware change would be necessary). I would like to listen to (and measure) some DSD tracks to decide for myself. :-) |
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Post by garym on Mar 18, 2013 18:54:58 GMT -5
I've downloaded a nuimber of DSD and DSX music files from a couple of sites and have to say that I've heard a distinct difference in sound quality for the better. . . . . I use J. River software and it can now play DSD and DSX files after conversion to high resolution PCM on the fly. If you're converting to PCM you're not hearing DSD. If there is any difference you will need a DSD-capable DAC to express it. That TEAC reduces the cost of a DSD DAC by almost half. I believe that within a year or so, that cost will be cut in half again, and most better BD players will be DSD-capable. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 18, 2013 19:35:47 GMT -5
Oppo's play SACD's don't they? Doesn't that mean that their DAC's must support DSD?
Cheers
Gary
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Post by ribbonking on Mar 18, 2013 19:49:24 GMT -5
Oppo's play SACD's don't they? Doesn't that mean that their DAC's must support DSD? Cheers Gary Yes, for SACD for discs. I was hoping so, too. Oppo initially said it would be possible from a firmware update but recently they said no to DSD from an external computer. |
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Post by tme110 on Mar 18, 2013 21:24:09 GMT -5
It just needs to be on a shiny disk to play DSD. So the OPPO can play DSD.
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Post by KR6600 on Mar 18, 2013 22:59:24 GMT -5
I have had an Oppo 105 in my theater for a while, and have not really explored it much. But, you sparked my curiosity.
So, I just spent a couple of hours experimenting with DSD. The Oppo does this on its HDMI2 output. My Integra DHC-80.1 recognizes this as well and displays DSD as the input. I tried comparing the Oppo’s DSD output with its PCM output. I was using a single layer, DSD, SHM-SACD (Diana Krall). I was hard pressed to hear a difference. I also did not hear much of a difference when using the balanced analog outputs of the Oppo. It all sounded excellent to me – DSD, PCM, balanced analog. I was using Magnepan 20.7’s driven by Krell 400e monoblocks. Maybe other source material might be more revealing. It was just a quick experiment.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2013 23:00:00 GMT -5
"That TEAC reduces the cost of a DSD DAC by almost half. I believe that within a year or so, that cost will be cut in half again, and most better BD players will be DSD-capable."
Yeah, the Teac UD-501 (850.00) is the first DSD DAC under 1595.00 (Mytek). I believe it is a definite sign they are coming down in price. Teac is going to shake things up with this DAC. If this medium takes off like I think it will, it will be here to stay. I am usually not one to buy on the front, but the back side of technology. So, I will wait. Also, at this time, there is not enough of the style of music I like available in DSD. The BDP-105 still looks like the best option.
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Post by garym on Mar 19, 2013 1:14:36 GMT -5
Oppo's play SACD's don't they? Doesn't that mean that their DAC's must support DSD? Cheers Gary Yup. But from SACDs only. All players which play SACDs have a DSD DAC. But they will not convert PC-based DSD files directly to analog, and will not output the DSD stream except over HDMI, for copy-protection reasons. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013 12:04:02 GMT -5
I have another question about the 105 as it relates to its DACs, and computer audio. Most of my questions have centered around USB because that is what I hear about the most when it comes to computer based music. But what about HDMI? Most of the laptops coming out now have an HMDI out. Mine does, and I use it from an Asus Netbook to an HDMI in on the Sherwood. Even with streaming at only 320kbps the sound is really good. Also, with using HDMI I can choose to engage Trinnov for 5.2 Stereo Surround, or one of Trinnov's other surround settings. This is a really cool option I think. So, does anyone know what the pros/cons are when using the 105's HDMI in vs USB in for computer music?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013 19:12:06 GMT -5
Anybody own a 105 and tried the above?
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 19, 2013 19:22:48 GMT -5
Oppo's play SACD's don't they? Doesn't that mean that their DAC's must support DSD? Yup. But from SACDs only. All players which play SACDs have a DSD DAC. But they will not convert PC-based DSD files directly to analog, and will not output the DSD stream except over HDMI, for copy-protection reasons. It's not a feature missing from the DAC, just a routing issue? Is it that the output from SACD's is routed via another input to the DAC? And the PC input (USB, HDMI) is routed via another input to the same DAC? Sounds ever so easy for Oppo to fix, either via firmware or hard wiring? Cheers Gary |
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Post by garym on Mar 19, 2013 20:46:09 GMT -5
Not sure how the streams are routed internally, but it may be that PC-based DSD streams would need to use the same signal path as streams from SACDs, and thus be made subject to copy-protection restrictions.
A few months ago an Oppo TS guy told me they were considering adding DSD support through a firmware update. But I read recently they have dropped that idea.
Perhaps an Oppo guru could amplify.
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Post by billmac on Apr 13, 2013 9:31:04 GMT -5
Nope, but I heard Oppo was having problems with the 103. Is the lip sync issue fixed. I also heard their was an issue with the video processor when watching/converting tv programing. No problems with lip sync with my 103. I do not use the HDMI inputs of the 103. So I have not experienced the issue that some are having with the 103/105 when running the signal of their cable/sat boxes through the Oppo's. I'm sure Oppo is on it as their service and attention to detail is one of the best in the A/V industry  . Bill |
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Post by billmac on Apr 13, 2013 9:38:06 GMT -5
I'm waiting till this latest FW from Oppo is official as I'm having no issues with my 103. It is amazing that Oppo added the ability to process DSD . 1.Added support for Direct Stream Digital (DSD) file playback from local storage. The DSD files can be either stereo or multi-channel. Both the DFF and the DSF formats are supported.The other great thing with Oppo's FW updates is they give a detailed explanation of all the updates that were done. That way one is well aware of all the specifics of what was fixed and any improvements made . Bill |
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Post by avaddikt on Apr 13, 2013 9:44:12 GMT -5
I'm waiting till this latest FW from Oppo is official as I'm having no issues with my 103. It is amazing that Oppo added the ability to process DSD . 1.Added support for Direct Stream Digital (DSD) file playback from local storage. The DSD files can be either stereo or multi-channel. Both the DFF and the DSF formats are supported.The other great thing with Oppo's FW updates is they give a detailed explanation of all the updates that were done. That way one is well aware of all the specifics of what was fixed and any improvements made . Bill Updates I've received for most electronics has a list of 'fixes' but few can match OPPO for their attention to detail. |
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Post by garym on Apr 13, 2013 13:10:15 GMT -5
Hey --- that update says the 103 will now play DSD files "from local storage." That would make the Oppo the cheapest DSD DAC on the market, by far.
From what I've read in the last few minutes, the Oppo will convert DSD files directly to analog, with no PCM step. That means you'd have to use the analog outputs. So no digital processing with the pre-pro.
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