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Post by Topend on Jan 27, 2013 2:27:42 GMT -5
Aim for great SQ, not super high SPL. Cheers, Dave. Just don't forget that the sub has to reproduce the LFE channel that is +10dB's versus the other channels and that is 115dB's at reference level. Isn't reference level 85dB for main speakers? Dave. |
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Post by GreenKiwi on Jan 27, 2013 2:57:53 GMT -5
Maybe sell them as a user assembled kit to keep shipping costs down. Dave. "Ikea" style? I'm not sure how much benefit we'd see. And the skills to put it all together right might be too much. Plus getting the finish right at joints would be tough. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2013 6:34:52 GMT -5
Just don't forget that the sub has to reproduce the LFE channel that is +10dB's versus the other channels and that is 115dB's at reference level. Isn't reference level 85dB for main speakers? Dave. Yes, sorry semantics error on my part. I was referring to maximum output of 105dB's for the regular channels and 115dB's for the LFE channel/sub (when the reference level is set to 85dB's/95dB's on the sub). The reference level is not the maximum playback level, which in fact is up to 115dB's for the LFE channel and that is 10dB's higher than that of the regular channels at 105dB's. You will see comments that the LFE channel is not a sub channel. That might be true in theaters but in 99.9% of our home systems the LFE sounds are sent to the sub if setup correctly. The LFE for most intent and purposes, is special loud movie effects that are below 80Hz (many times way below). They usually roll of quickly above 80Hz and hit a brick wall/cliff at 120Hz. Some music recording engineers use the LFE channel in their 5.1 sound, apparently because it is there, that's not what it was intended for. That is why I say to folks don't forget that for real maximum HT movie playback you need a sub that will be able to reproduce bass in the 80Hz down to 20Hz or even below at 115dB's or near that. Many folks don't care about this output level and are plenty happy with musical subs that don't go much below 25-30Hz or over 105dB's. That is fine. I only made my comment to be sure all folks realize for excellent movie sound they do need a clean but also very loud sub. ;D |
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sorbe
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Post by sorbe on Jan 27, 2013 9:37:04 GMT -5
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Post by yves on Jan 27, 2013 10:27:29 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2013 11:18:54 GMT -5
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Post by flamingeye on Jan 27, 2013 14:15:00 GMT -5
A sub is still way more capable of producing deep, accurate bass because that is it’s main design and you can better place it for room gain and said deep, accurate bass . Your Canton Vento’s are probably not in the best place for that . |
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Post by yves on Jan 27, 2013 15:31:44 GMT -5
A sub is still way more capable of producing deep, accurate bass because that is it’s main design and you can better place it for room gain and said deep, accurate bass . Your Canton Vento’s are probably not in the best place for that . Their frequency response goes all the way down to 20 Hz and they are surprisingly linear in fact. They use "Displacement Control" (DC), a technology developed by Canton, which suppresses subsonic energy, to prevent uncontrolled deflection of the driver in the woofer and to improve accuracy. A ported cabinet greatly helps to extend the low frequencies, thereby allowing smaller diameter domes to be used. It also reduces the excursion of the driver, which results in improved accuracy. A smaller diameter woofer allows multiple woofers to be stacked vertically above oneanother, which not only saves some material cost, weight (aka shipping cost, etc.), and floor space (WAF factor...), but it also helps to reduce dispersion. Cabinet resonance and port resonance is not necessarily that big of a problem anymore nowadays (just look up the measurements of the Canton Reference 3.2 DC in the Stereophile review; I think you will see the difference). |
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Post by flamingeye on Jan 27, 2013 15:55:42 GMT -5
A sub is still way more capable of producing deep, accurate bass because that is it’s main design and you can better place it for room gain and said deep, accurate bass . Your Canton Vento’s are probably not in the best place for that . Their frequency response goes all the way down to 20 Hz and they are surprisingly linear in fact. They use "Displacement Control" (DC), a technology developed by Canton, which suppresses subsonic energy, to prevent uncontrolled deflection of the driver in the woofer and to improve accuracy. A ported cabinet greatly helps to extend the low frequencies, thereby allowing smaller diameter domes to be used. It also reduces the excursion of the driver, which results in improved accuracy. A smaller diameter woofer allows multiple woofers to be stacked vertically above oneanother, which not only saves some material cost, weight (aka shipping cost, etc.), and floor space (WAF factor...), but it also helps to reduce dispersion. Cabinet resonance and port resonance is not necessarily that big of a problem anymore nowadays (just look up the measurements of the Canton Reference 3.2 DC in the Stereophile review; I think you will see the difference). I wasn’t disputing the capabilities of your Canton’s and indeed did check them out, I was however stating there placement probably wasn’t ideal for sub bass FR and that subwoofers are designed only for outputting mid bass to subsonic bass . I bet if you put a sub in you would be surprised at how better the music and movies would sound , I never heard anyone say it sounded better with out the sub |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jan 27, 2013 16:02:43 GMT -5
I bet if you put a sub in you would be surprised at how better the music and movies would sound, I never heard anyone say it sounded better with out the sub I would agree for movies, but for music I prefer my Maggies sans sub. |
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jan 27, 2013 16:20:37 GMT -5
Their frequency response goes all the way down to 20 Hz and they are surprisingly linear in fact. They use "Displacement Control" (DC), a technology developed by Canton, which suppresses subsonic energy, to prevent uncontrolled deflection of the driver in the woofer and to improve accuracy. A ported cabinet greatly helps to extend the low frequencies, thereby allowing smaller diameter domes to be used. It also reduces the excursion of the driver, which results in improved accuracy. A smaller diameter woofer allows multiple woofers to be stacked vertically above oneanother, which not only saves some material cost, weight (aka shipping cost, etc.), and floor space (WAF factor...), but it also helps to reduce dispersion. Cabinet resonance and port resonance is not necessarily that big of a problem anymore nowadays (just look up the measurements of the Canton Reference 3.2 DC in the Stereophile review; I think you will see the difference). I wasn’t disputing the capabilities of your Canton’s and indeed did check them out, I was however stating there placement probably wasn’t ideal for sub bass FR and that subwoofers are designed only for outputting mid bass to subsonic bass . I bet if you put a sub in you would be surprised at how better the music and movies would sound , I never heard anyone say it sounded better with out the sub For 2-channel music my system sounds better without the sub... except when I'm playing pop-music; then a sub gives it the kick I want. Jazz, classical and other genres (when properly recorded and mixed) rarely, if ever, need a sub in my system. |
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Post by flamingeye on Jan 27, 2013 16:46:21 GMT -5
I agree that classical and the like don’t necessarily need subs but some that I have do and some of my jazz CDs and LPs benefit from a sub too . progressive rock, new age, electronic etc.. really benefit from one and you would be surprised how much sub bass there is in a properly mastered classical and jazz peace
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Post by yves on Jan 27, 2013 17:55:10 GMT -5
Their frequency response goes all the way down to 20 Hz and they are surprisingly linear in fact. They use "Displacement Control" (DC), a technology developed by Canton, which suppresses subsonic energy, to prevent uncontrolled deflection of the driver in the woofer and to improve accuracy. A ported cabinet greatly helps to extend the low frequencies, thereby allowing smaller diameter domes to be used. It also reduces the excursion of the driver, which results in improved accuracy. A smaller diameter woofer allows multiple woofers to be stacked vertically above oneanother, which not only saves some material cost, weight (aka shipping cost, etc.), and floor space (WAF factor...), but it also helps to reduce dispersion. Cabinet resonance and port resonance is not necessarily that big of a problem anymore nowadays (just look up the measurements of the Canton Reference 3.2 DC in the Stereophile review; I think you will see the difference). I wasn’t disputing the capabilities of your Canton’s and indeed did check them out, I was however stating there placement probably wasn’t ideal for sub bass FR and that subwoofers are designed only for outputting mid bass to subsonic bass . I bet if you put a sub in you would be surprised at how better the music and movies would sound , I never heard anyone say it sounded better with out the sub On the contrary IMO. Human hearing is susceptible to the directionality of mid bass, so the ideal placement for mid bass is straight below the midtones and the hightones, to preserve imaging. I am not experiencing any trouble with room modes. After alot of experimenting with speaker placement, I ended up settling for an equilateral triangle of about 9 feet (I have a relatively small room) with a toe in of about 15°; about 2.3 feet from the rear wall and 2 feet from the side wall, with bass traps in the corners, a hard floor with a rug thrown in front of each speaker and a fair bit of absorption attached to the walls and ceiling where needed. The deep bass coming from these dual 8" aluminum dome woofers extends well over an octave below what you'd normally expect to get with 8" woofers. However, as incredible as that sounds, they let you FEEL the power and the honestly detailed (microdynamics and textures included) deep bass coming out of the XPA-2. It's as if there's two huge subs invisibly standing in my room, for lack of better words. ;D |
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jan 27, 2013 18:35:43 GMT -5
I agree that classical and the like don’t necessarily need subs but some that I have do and some of my jazz CDs and LPs benefit from a sub too . progressive rock, new age, electronic etc.. really benefit from one and you would be surprised how much sub bass there is in a properly mastered classical and jazz peace You would be surprised at how much bass a very good set of towers can reproduce. ;D So much so, you might wonder why you need a sub in the first place (other than a bass boost).  |
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Post by flamingeye on Jan 27, 2013 21:17:44 GMT -5
^I also agree on that my 4 x Klipsch KG 5.5's have dual 10" woofers so that makes 8 10" woofers in my room and they alone can earthquake the room but adding 2 15" subs have made my music sing like never before because I now let the KG 5.5's just handle the mid bass and the subs the subsonic stuff which let my main amps increase in headroom now that they no long have to produce the hug wattage for sub bass FR , but anyways I think a person should at lest try a sub or two for them selves and see what they think . personally just taking the load off the main amps and speakers is worth it .
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Post by dust770 on Jan 27, 2013 22:00:29 GMT -5
Sealed or Ported w/ Plug
12"
Flat from 20hz-80hz
1000 W
Black Satin or Woodgrain
18" cube
on board EQ (not on back)
1000 -1250$
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jan 27, 2013 23:50:34 GMT -5
^I also agree on that my 4 x Klipsch KG 5.5's have dual 10" woofers so that makes 8 10" woofers in my room and they alone can earthquake the room but adding 2 15" subs have made my music sing like never before because I now let the KG 5.5's just handle the mid bass and the subs the subsonic stuff which let my main amps increase in headroom now that they no long have to produce the hug wattage for sub bass FR , but anyways I think a person should at lest try a sub or two for them selves and see what they think . personally just taking the load off the main amps and speakers is worth it . I've tried several subs in my system and other than a bass boost there is just not that much below 40 (even in my Mahler discs) that need to be amplified greater than what they are already in my towers. I'm sure if I wanted my system to sound like the hoop-dees driving down the street I would want to have subs running with my towers. However, Mahler and Wagner don't sound too good with over boosted bass like hip-hop and pop do. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 3:18:37 GMT -5
Their frequency response goes all the way down to 20 Hz and they are surprisingly linear in fact. They use "Displacement Control" (DC), a technology developed by Canton, which suppresses subsonic energy, to prevent uncontrolled deflection of the driver in the woofer and to improve accuracy., but it also helps to reduce dispersion. Cabinet resonance and port resonance is not necessarily that big of a problem anymore nowadays (just look up the measurements of the Canton Reference 3.2 DC in the Stereophile review; I think you will see the difference). I read above with interest when you stated that your Canton speakers in your opinion didn't need a sub. The Canton line is an excellent line of speakers. You didn't seem to mention whether you have a stereo setup or HT system. If you have them only in a 2 channel system then I can see that statement about not needing a sub, although personally I prefer a sub even in the 2 channel stereo systems. I took a look at the Canton published specs for your speaker. The frequency response spec is 20-40,000Hz. If you understand speakers specs you will know that that 20-40,000Hz is meaningless since there is no variance given, let alone the fact that most companies tend to over state the FR. In other words is that bass extension down to 20Hz at -3dB's? I don't think so based on the typical facts about this speaker regardless of the fancy talk about DC. Is the 20Hz response at -6dB's, -10dB's, -12dB's, -15dB's? Well, they don't tell us, I wonder why? It is a 63lb speaker, 44" tall with a 7" mid and two 8" woofers. Looks like it should be a very good performing tower. I guessed it would have quite good low bass response, maybe in the 35-40Hz range at -3dB's, very typical response of high quality speakers in this general class regardless of the marketing claims. So I did in fact check out the Stereophile review, as you suggested, on the Canton Reference 3.2 DC speaker, $16,000/pair. It is a higher series speaker, little bit larger and has a 7" mid and two 9" bass drivers and weighs a whopping 108lbs! It has a spec of 18-40,000Hz (again no variance). This is obviously a beefed up version and much more expensive than your Canton Vento 890.2 DC and should go even lower. Here are the test results on the Reference 3.2 DC. Looks like a FR of about 32-20,000Hz +/- 5dB's (or about 40-20,000 +/-3dB's), pretty nice performance especially in the high end, however down about -20dB's at 20Hz. I'm guessing the Vento would not match this low bass performance. Nice speakers. ;D |
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 28, 2013 3:28:27 GMT -5
^I also agree on that my 4 x Klipsch KG 5.5's have dual 10" woofers so that makes 8 10" woofers in my room and they alone can earthquake the room but adding 2 15" subs have made my music sing like never before because I now let the KG 5.5's just handle the mid bass and the subs the subsonic stuff which let my main amps increase in headroom now that they no long have to produce the hug wattage for sub bass FR , but anyways I think a person should at lest try a sub or two for them selves and see what they think . personally just taking the load off the main amps and speakers is worth it . I've tried several subs in my system and other than a bass boost there is just not that much below 40 (even in my Mahler discs) that need to be amplified greater than what they are already in my towers. I'm sure if I wanted my system to sound like the hoop-dees driving down the street I would want to have subs running with my towers. However, Mahler and Wagner don't sound too good with over boosted bass like hip-hop and pop do. That is why I have a big azz sub for when I feel like listening to some Reggaeton........and make my neighbor come knock at my door....... |
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Post by bolle on Jan 28, 2013 5:59:05 GMT -5
So the title pretty much says it all, however. Dan and I were discussing various options, sizes, features, price points and such and I thought it would be interesting to get some feedback from all of you. Here is your chance to be part of the development processes. Tell me what would be your ideal sub. Is it ported or sealed? What size? How much power? What type of finish? Features and such. Last but certainly not least, how much? (please keep it realistic  ) So be part of the process and let us know. Thanks Lonnie - Sealed - 15 or 18 inch - Enough power that the sub is excursion limited and not electrically limited - Black or white, selectable, painted matte - PEQ with 3 to 5 bands, adjustable subsonic - About 1k sounds right regarding the price |
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