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Post by moko on Jan 11, 2014 5:37:03 GMT -5
awesome setup, theo ! and correct one also. although for a more restraint financially guy like me, i would change the xpr's to some cheaper class d amps to push the bass section. but i doubt they would look good as those xpr's. curious about what berylium tweeters sound like. and don't forget to post the picture somewhere else like audioholics. i follow their tweet.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2014 8:32:14 GMT -5
What was wrong with the Halcros? Cheers Gary Was about to ask the same question. I do recall in one the Home Theater Magazine articles where people show their home theaters the installer raving about the Halcros. The set up consisted of a huge pair of Focal Grand and according to him the Halcros were the perfect match. The article us about 2 years old. I recall reading it and only dreaming of having such a set up. While it was a while back I heard Halcros (I think the 58) into Wilson Alexandrias in about 2003. They sounded held back, lacked detail and crispness compared to the Mark Levinson 436s that were connected afterwards, the Wilsons just begged for more, more, more which the MLs delivered. The Halcros were then put with a pair of Tannoys (the model I can't remember) - utterly amazing transformation - fast, detailed and fully alive. Just mix n match issues  . |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 11, 2014 15:42:52 GMT -5
What was wrong with the Halcros? Was about to ask the same question. I do recall in one the Home Theater Magazine articles where people show their home theaters the installer raving about the Halcros. The set up consisted of a huge pair of Focal Grand and according to him the Halcros were the perfect match. The article us about 2 years old. I recall reading it and only dreaming of having such a set up. My uncle had a pair of Halcros when he lived in what we call the "big house", powering a pair of Tannoy 15" Golds (Westminster Special Editions). When he moved to the "small house" his whole set up was too big physically and someone offered him more than paid for the Halcros so he sold them. There was a waiting list on Halcros at the time and the guy that bought them didn't want to wait. He now has my XPA-2/3 combo in a 5.1 set up using Paradigm Signature series speakers which I would say doesn't lose much, if any, sound quality in the smaller environment. There was nothing wrong with the sound quality or volume from his Halcros, that my ears could hear anyway, they were just physically too big. Hence why I asked the question. Cheers Gary |
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tz
Minor Hero
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Post by tz on Jan 14, 2014 13:38:38 GMT -5
Hello Gary,
nothing was wrong with the halcros until the power supply of one of them failed. The Halcro company does not exist any more and it took 6 months to fix it. It was a pain and got very frustrated. When you buy this type of amplifiers (ultra high-end and very expensive) you feel like you are buying them almost for life. At the end they are just well build devices and age as well. Yes usually they have extraordinary cases, very nice looks and some of them are well designed (some are poorly designed crap in an expensive box). I went to the conclusion that it would be better to renew my amplification devices from time to time and keep up with the progress of the technology. That is how I came to Emotiva. So far I think I have made a right choice.
To say few words how do the Halcros sound. Yes they sound very good, although some people say they are bright. Saying that I can confirm that my current setup (biamping with XPR-1 and XPA-2 G.2) has better control on the Base (it is 16" Electromagnetic Speaker) and has no compromises in the mids/highs. So it is better compared to the Halcros, maybe better than most (just cautious to say "any") single amp configurations. So I am very satisfied. Actually I love the approach to build an amp based on the good proven engineering principles, as Emotiva guys do. Can it be done better? Sure. In some years we would expect to see the next versions. ;-)
Cheers,
Theo
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Post by fattner on Jan 26, 2014 12:10:57 GMT -5
Thanks for all you guys input ,2 more stupid ? Has anyone used these mono blocks with a tube preamp cuz that's what I plan on doing if I purchase these heavy weights !! And my room is set up with 4 hospital (grade humble 20 amp )on the back wall , 2 outlets on one dedicated 20amp circuit and the other 2 on another dedicated 20 amp circuit I see they recommend that each mono block requires a dedicated 20 amp circuit that's no boggy but I do need plugs for my my clsiiz into an outlet as well as my power conditioner that has my pre amp/ turntable and cd all plugged in ,so even though each amp will be on there Own 20amp circuit can I use the rest of my outlets on that wall ?? I hope that s as clear as mud ,lol thanks again
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kamen
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 6 
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Post by kamen on Feb 23, 2014 10:32:34 GMT -5
Hello Gary,
nothing was wrong with the halcros until the power supply of one of them failed. The Halcro company does not exist any more and it took 6 months to fix it. It was a pain and got very frustrated. When you buy this type of amplifiers (ultra high-end and very expensive) you feel like you are buying them almost for life. At the end they are just well build devices and age as well. Yes usually they have extraordinary cases, very nice looks and some of them are well designed (some are poorly designed crap in an expensive box). I went to the conclusion that it would be better to renew my amplification devices from time to time and keep up with the progress of the technology. That is how I came to Emotiva. So far I think I have made a right choice.
To say few words how do the Halcros sound. Yes they sound very good, although some people say they are bright. Saying that I can confirm that my current setup (biamping with XPR-1 and XPA-2 G.2) has better control on the Base (it is 16" Electromagnetic Speaker) and has no compromises in the mids/highs. So it is better compared to the Halcros, maybe better than most (just cautious to say "any") single amp configurations. So I am very satisfied. Actually I love the approach to build an amp based on the good proven engineering principles, as Emotiva guys do. Can it be done better? Sure. In some years we would expect to see the next versions. ;-)
Cheers,
Theo Hello Theo, (not to forget everybody else, thanks for great discussion) Thanks for great review and your audio equipment simply is amassing, especially Focal's they are my dream I'm in a process of upgrading my amp the XPA-2. Narrowed to two choices: one XPR-2 or two XPA-1 gen. 2. (A class looks very tempting). I'm a hi-fi stereo only, speakers are: Monitor audio platinum PL 300, 90 db. and 4 ohm. www.monitoraudio.co.uk/products/platinum/pl300/#/specificationnot to heavy to drive, lets say moderate, the XPA-2 is driving them OK. And yes I recognize that more power amp is better. Source is digital: Bladelius Embla (CD, silent player, dac and preamp,) going fully balanced to the amp. www.bladelius.com/products/bladelius/media-players/embla.html
Goal is to get Hi-end sound as much as possible from the system. Please can you give me some advise? Thanks, Kamen |
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 23, 2014 20:55:07 GMT -5
The way I see it there are 2 advantages of the XPA-1 Gen 2;
1. The ability to do 60 watts in Class A, only you know whether that is an advantage for you personally or not.
2. The ability to physically locate the amps very close to the speakers, thereby substantially shortening the speaker wire connections. Again only you know whether that is possible within the physical limitations of your setup.
There used to be noticeable advantage for mono blocks in lower cross talk in comparison to a stereo amp, but that advantage is pretty much non existent in Emotiva amps.
Cheers
Gary
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kamen
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 6
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Post by kamen on Feb 24, 2014 14:50:47 GMT -5
Thanks Gary,
Yes that's true but not so important in my case,
My Question is more to the musical side of the amplifiers,
and Theo has both amps in the system and one of the best speakers
in the world, who are very revealing and You can hear and feel every nuance of the
music and the gear driving-it.
I'm not worried about the power of the amp,
I need first hand advice about tonal balance, how big and deep is the stage,
how is the position and definition of the musicians inside the stage, sound of woman voice,
violin, piano and trumpet, and everything else that can be noted.
Thanks,
Kamen
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kamen
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 6
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Post by kamen on Feb 24, 2014 15:43:03 GMT -5
Attachment DeletedHi guys, Here is picture of my room, note the pre, XSP-1 was here only couple of weeks just for testing, Embla is fully balanced and driving the amp directly through silver Kimber ks 1136, speaker cable is copper bi-wire Kimber bifocal XL, all power cords are Kimber pk10, and power filter is IsoTek EVO3 AQUARIUS. the hi-fi rack is German finite-elemente Level plus 2. You can see that room is acoustically treated (and in my opinion it's the best money spend, biggest upgrade) Regards, Kamen
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Post by garbulky on Feb 24, 2014 15:44:44 GMT -5
View AttachmentHi guys, Here is picture of my room, note the pre, XSP-1 was here only couple of weeks just for testing, Embla is fully balanced and driving the amp directly through silver Kimber ks 1136, speaker cable is copper bi-wire Kimber bifocal XL, all power cords are Kimber pk10, and power filter is IsoTek EVO3 AQUARIUS. the hi-fi rack is German finite-elemente Level plus 2. You can see that room is acoustically treated (and in my opinion it's the best money spend, biggest upgrade) Regards, Kamen Nice setup! What speakers and DAC do you use? |
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kamen
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 6
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Post by kamen on Feb 24, 2014 18:00:32 GMT -5
Hi guys, Here is picture of my room, note the pre, XSP-1 was here only couple of weeks just for testing, Embla is fully balanced and driving the amp directly through silver Kimber ks 1136, speaker cable is copper bi-wire Kimber bifocal XL, all power cords are Kimber pk10, and power filter is IsoTek EVO3 AQUARIUS. the hi-fi rack is German finite-elemente Level plus 2. You can see that room is acoustically treated (and in my opinion it's the best money spend, biggest upgrade) Regards, Kamen Nice setup! What speakers and DAC do you use?
www.bladelius.com/products/bladelius/media-players/embla.html
regards, Kamen |
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Post by Hair Nick on Mar 5, 2014 11:18:23 GMT -5
View AttachmentHi guys, Here is picture of my room, note the pre, XSP-1 was here only couple of weeks just for testing, Embla is fully balanced and driving the amp directly through silver Kimber ks 1136, speaker cable is copper bi-wire Kimber bifocal XL, all power cords are Kimber pk10, and power filter is IsoTek EVO3 AQUARIUS. the hi-fi rack is German finite-elemente Level plus 2. You can see that room is acoustically treated (and in my opinion it's the best money spend, biggest upgrade) Regards, Kamen off topic, but what media stand is that? |
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kamen
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 6
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Post by kamen on Mar 16, 2014 16:13:33 GMT -5
Hi guys, Here is picture of my room, note the pre, XSP-1 was here only couple of weeks just for testing, Embla is fully balanced and driving the amp directly through silver Kimber ks 1136, speaker cable is copper bi-wire Kimber bifocal XL, all power cords are Kimber pk10, and power filter is IsoTek EVO3 AQUARIUS. the hi-fi rack is German finite-elemente Level plus 2. You can see that room is acoustically treated (and in my opinion it's the best money spend, biggest upgrade) Regards, Kamen off topic, but what media stand is that? Hello Nick, German finite-elemente Level plus 2 www.finite-elemente.de/de/racks/auslaufmodelle/levelplus
Regards, Kamen |
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Post by andersp on Apr 12, 2014 18:33:04 GMT -5
Every class A/B amp has some power in pure class A. The point is that this power could be very low, and then in practice the amp will work only in class A/B even at low levels. That means higher crossover distortions at low levels and as a consequence lower sound quality. I should say here that I compared my XPR-1 amps to KRELL EVO-402E, Devialet and Dan D'agostino Momentum monoblocks. The speakers were Magico Q-7. All of the above amps outperformed XPR-1. The difference is evident (but the price difference is evident as well). The voices coming out of XPR-1 is harsh in comparison. At home where I compare it to Halcro DM-58, running Focal Grande Utopia EM I have the same observations. Considering the price of XPR-1 it is a very good amp, but put next to the top performers it loses the competition. Honestly "XPR-1 – Nothing less than the most" slogan doesn't hold. What I feel is the amp has a great potential, but it is somehow waiting to be unlocked. Maybe the bias should be higher? BTW, very soon I will put my amps on test with AP 2722 to see some real world measurements of the amp. Lets see. XPR-1 is good, and possibly can be even better. I have to second most of this, but when an A/B amp leaves class A it enters class B; Hence the designation A/B. There is however nothing magical with class A. It's merely one of multiple ways to reduce distorsion. I believe people tend to focus to much on this aspect of an amplifier. The First Watt and Aleph amps are all class A designs. Still there are amps on the market with significantly less distorsion than theese. An accurate way to test an amp designed to be neutral sounding is the blind bypass listening test with a dummy load. In this way you compare the test subject with itself only. This is a description of the test method: Amplifier Test MethodThere is a small swedish audio club administered by people in there spare time that publish a magazine with test of audio equipent for their members. The method above is used to test pre- and power amps. Sadly the magazine is not available on the internet, but because of som stir on the Bryston forum one article was translated and published: Bryston 14B SST ReviewThe XPA-2 gen 1 and the XPR-2 are also tested by the magazine and the XPA-2 basically passed the test undetectable with a 99% statistical confidence. The XPR-2 however did not. As the XPR listening went by a transientdynamic snare drum came to play the leading role. A slight "harshness" in the treble was detected. The conclusion was that the XPR-2 is good value because of decent signal quality, ample power and a low price, but doesn't match the best performers. As "minor hero" tz suggests; One or more slight modifications of the XPR amps could very possibly unlock their performance. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 12, 2014 18:36:18 GMT -5
Modify an XPR - and void the warranty?? Not me, thanks.
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Post by andersp on Apr 12, 2014 19:02:17 GMT -5
Oh, sorry. My bad.
I ment a modification made by Emotiva themselves of course.
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Post by garbulky on Apr 13, 2014 4:30:33 GMT -5
Every class A/B amp has some power in pure class A. The point is that this power could be very low, and then in practice the amp will work only in class A/B even at low levels. That means higher crossover distortions at low levels and as a consequence lower sound quality. I should say here that I compared my XPR-1 amps to KRELL EVO-402E, Devialet and Dan D'agostino Momentum monoblocks. The speakers were Magico Q-7. All of the above amps outperformed XPR-1. The difference is evident (but the price difference is evident as well). The voices coming out of XPR-1 is harsh in comparison. At home where I compare it to Halcro DM-58, running Focal Grande Utopia EM I have the same observations. Considering the price of XPR-1 it is a very good amp, but put next to the top performers it loses the competition. Honestly "XPR-1 – Nothing less than the most" slogan doesn't hold. What I feel is the amp has a great potential, but it is somehow waiting to be unlocked. Maybe the bias should be higher? BTW, very soon I will put my amps on test with AP 2722 to see some real world measurements of the amp. Lets see. XPR-1 is good, and possibly can be even better. I have to second most of this, but when an A/B amp leaves class A it enters class B; Hence the designation A/B. There is however nothing magical with class A. It's merely one of multiple ways to reduce distorsion. I believe people tend to focus to much on this aspect of an amplifier. The First Watt and Aleph amps are all class A designs. Still there are amps on the market with significantly less distorsion than theese. An accurate way to test an amp designed to be neutral sounding is the blind bypass listening test with a dummy load. In this way you compare the test subject with itself only. This is a description of the test method: Amplifier Test MethodThere is a small swedish audio club administered by people in there spare time that publish a magazine with test of audio equipent for their members. The method above is used to test pre- and power amps. Sadly the magazine is not available on the internet, but because of som stir on the Bryston forum one article was translated and published: Bryston 14B SST ReviewThe XPA-2 gen 1 and the XPR-2 are also tested by the magazine and the XPA-2 basically passed the test undetectable with a 99% statistical confidence. The XPR-2 however did not. As the XPR listening went by a transientdynamic snare drum came to play the leading role. A slight "harshness" in the treble was detected. The conclusion was that the XPR-2 is good value because of decent signal quality, ample power and a low price, but doesn't match the best performers. As "minor hero" tz suggests; One or more slight modifications of the XPR amps could very possibly unlock their performance. Interesting link. Do you have one for the XPR-2 and XPA-2? I like people that get nitpicky with stuff and do both measurements but also give some credence to actual listening. |
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Post by andersp on Apr 13, 2014 21:34:49 GMT -5
Nitpicking is what this is all about I'm afraid. Most people would be perfectly satisfied with the XPR-2 soundwise I think. Remember bypass listening is like putting the test subject under a microscope and really dissecting it. One problem with amps like the XPRs is when they switch to the higher rails, and at what voltage/power this is done. Below this voltage I imagine the amps would go undetected in bypass listening as the distorsion then is very low, but I don't know this for a fact. Check this article out: XPR-1 measurementsAs can be seen in the power test graphs the rail switch most likely happens @350 W for 8 Ohm loads and @ 600 W for 4 Ohm loads. I haven't seen measurements for XPR-2 though, but taking (the XPR-1 numbers)/2 seems reasonable. In my book however a rail switch is always preferable over clipping. I have the magazines with the XPA-2 and XPR-2 articles, but then there is the work with translation, creating uploadable documents, copyright and what have you. I dont have either the knowledge of english or the time I'm afraid. The way I see it is that measurements can be interesting to describe certain aspects and problems with an amp, but controlled and blind bypass listening is a much better way to describe performance; As long as the gear is used for playing music or film soundtracks that is. On the other hand it may be problematic for Emotiva with the "refence" XPRs that besides raw power are outperformed by the XPAs... |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 13, 2014 22:42:55 GMT -5
Nitpicking is what this is all about I'm afraid. Most people would be perfectly satisfied with the XPR-2 soundwise I think. Remember bypass listening is like putting the test subject under a microscope and really dissecting it. One problem with amps like the XPRs is when they switch to the higher rails, and at what voltage/power this is done. Below this voltage I imagine the amps would go undetected in bypass listening as the distorsion then is very low, but I don't know this for a fact. Check this article out: XPR-1 measurementsAs can be seen in the power test graphs the rail switch most likely happens @350 W for 8 Ohm loads and @ 600 W for 4 Ohm loads. I haven't seen measurements for XPR-2 though, but taking (the XPR-1 numbers)/2 seems reasonable. In my book however a rail switch is always preferable over clipping. I have the magazines with the XPA-2 and XPR-2 articles, but then there is the work with translation, creating uploadable documents, copyright and what have you. I dont have either the knowledge of english or the time I'm afraid. The way I see it is that measurements can be interesting to describe certain aspects and problems with an amp, but controlled and blind bypass listening is a much better way to describe performance; As long as the gear is used for playing music or film soundtracks that is. On the other hand it may be problematic for Emotiva with the "refence" XPRs that besides raw power are outperformed by the XPAs... I did notice the THD bump. Now it was a very low THD bump but it does exist. I've noticed that there are three different sound signatures so far with Emotiva amps. The U-series, X-series, and XPR series. For instance the UPA-1 and 2 sounded very similar to each other. The x-series tends to lean towards very fast to differentiate (at least the XPA-2). Slightly forward but not enough to be an issue - it may well have been the connecting equipment here. It also had a brute force feel to it. The XPR series (XPR-2) has a body to the sound that the XPA-2 didn't quite have. The XPR-2 was very similar in sound signature to the UPA-1 and 2 (but better). The sound signature is relatively relaxed. Unfortunately these aren't definitive descriptions as I've auditioned only a few of them at my place and the gear and positioning at the other place changed. But it is the best knowledge I've got |
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Post by andersp on Apr 14, 2014 15:49:49 GMT -5
Do some blind bypass listening yourselves in the americas!
Easiest is using a mixing console in a good room patched up by a sound engineer with test subject hooked upp to a dummy load (silent loudspeaker) as in article linked to above. More listeners makes statistics gets better. Try to reach 99% statistical confidence. Any sound engineer understands this concept. Problems are time, nitpicking and construction/building the dummy load. Less complicated dummy loads make detection less difficult/lesser amps will pass the test. Understand that this kind of testing is more severe for amp than open listening with real music and guessing/imagening based on price, cred, branding and that kind of thinking. Compare test object with sound passing clean through mixing console. Remember that some distorsion can be very pleasing to the ear and this can very well make lesser recordings more enjoyable. This can be a good thing living with a music setup.
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