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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2013 21:11:51 GMT -5
..... talking to the dead ..... Oh, I have to disagree with you on this one! I talk to Soupy Sales (RIP ... Milton Supman) all the time since he passed away a few years ago. That's how I get most of my goofy material. ;D ;D ;D "Soupy Sales, rubber-faced comedian whose anything-for-a-chuckle career was built on 20,000 pies to the face and 5,000 live TV appearances across a half-century of laughs."
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Mar 4, 2013 21:29:04 GMT -5
In the old days, and I’m sure it’s still around in some form today, there used to be charts in the likes of “Stereo Review” that would break down the percentages you should spend on the different components of an audio system. The big fault I see today is that the importance of interconnects is over-stressed by manufacturers and audio boards.
A new user is much better off to make the initial investment in the main equipment vs. 15-20% of the total budget on cables!
As they mature in the hobby making these choices in a knowledgeable manner seems more prudent.
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Post by vharpip on Mar 4, 2013 21:36:30 GMT -5
It confounds me why people who don't believe in speaker wire, interconnects etc. feel it is there God given right to try and convince everyone that they are right and everyone else is a fool. If a person says they here differences than so be it. If ypu don't believe it then good save your money and don't try to spend someone elses money. It always seems as if the people who think they hear differences just state it and dont't feel that they need to go on a crusade to say that thoes that don't are fools. Some people know whart their ears tell them and thats it. No harm no foul. let them think what they must in peace, because there are people that think paying Emotiva prices for gear is foolish and there is nothing yopu can say to convince them otherwise. Value is in the eye of the deholder.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 4, 2013 21:38:22 GMT -5
Etahn Winer is brilliant, and absolutely correct. That's why a lot of so-called audiophiles try to discredit him around the Internets. The truth scares them when they realize they might be *gasp* wrong.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 4, 2013 21:39:29 GMT -5
It confounds me why people who don't believe in speaker wire, interconnects etc. feel it is there God given right to try and convince everyone that they are right and everyone else is a fool. If a person says they here differences than so be it. If ypu don't believe it then good save your money and don't try to spend someone elses money. It always seems as if the people who think they hear differences just state it and dont't feel that they need to go on a crusade to say that thoes that don't are fools. Some people know whart their ears tell them and thats it. No harm no foul. let them think what they must in peace, because there are people that think paying Emotiva prices for gear is foolish and there is nothing yopu can say to convince them otherwise. Value is in the eye of the deholder. As long as those people realize that the difference they think they hear is due to the functions of their brain and not due to an inherent characteristic of the cable, then as an engineer I'm good with that.
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Post by arthurz on Mar 4, 2013 21:45:52 GMT -5
I only care about convincing open-minded reasonable people. Whether you operate in the realm of irrational belief or verifiable science is a personal preference. It took our civilization a couple thousand years to make this advance, so it would be irrational to expect everyone to be intuitively scientifically-minded. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_realism_(psychology)
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Mar 4, 2013 21:51:05 GMT -5
It confounds me why people who don't believe in speaker wire, interconnects etc. feel it is there God given right to try and convince everyone that they are right and everyone else is a fool. If a person says they here differences than so be it. If ypu don't believe it then good save your money and don't try to spend someone elses money. It always seems as if the people who think they hear differences just state it and dont't feel that they need to go on a crusade to say that thoes that don't are fools. Some people know whart their ears tell them and thats it. No harm no foul. let them think what they must in peace, because there are people that think paying Emotiva prices for gear is foolish and there is nothing yopu can say to convince them otherwise. Value is in the eye of the deholder. Do with your money as you wish. I am not trying to convince anyone of my opinion, but I am expressing my opinion. I am also not calling anyone wrong!
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Post by The Mad Norseman on Mar 4, 2013 22:31:29 GMT -5
In the old days, and I’m sure it’s still around in some form today, there used to be charts in the likes of “Stereo Review” that would break down the percentages you should spend on the different components of an audio system. The big fault I see today is that the importance of interconnects is over-stressed by manufacturers and audio boards. A new user is much better off to make the initial investment in the main equipment vs. 15-20% of the total budget on cables! As they mature in the hobby making these choices in a knowledgeable manner seems more prudent. I remember that Stereo Review ratio too, but can't recall the percentages, etc. Speakers was weighted the highest I'm sure... But I also agree that (especially for a new hobbyist) that the money should be put into the gear first - and then only later upgrade wires/cables as they feel a need to, and as they get more experience as to relative value vs. performance. Too much snake oil out there... So, good advice cfelliot!
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Post by arthurz on Mar 4, 2013 23:10:19 GMT -5
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Post by jdskycaster on Mar 4, 2013 23:20:57 GMT -5
A cable shootout at Emofest would still be of great value.
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Mar 4, 2013 23:29:53 GMT -5
On speaker wires and interconnects: You can hear a difference between 2 sets of interconnects; I don't think that should be discounted. But, the follow up question needs to be, why? Obviously, one is coloring the sound and the other isn't. Whether you prefer the less-colored sound or the colored sound is a matter of opinion. And in this hobby, your opinion on your sound is the only one that matters.
My case in point; 2 years ago I changed out my speaker wires to the Emotiva ones I'm currently using. Immediately the sound improved noticeably! The reason? My speaker wires had corroded inside the insulation (used Home Depot wire back in 2000). This corrosion caused the old wire to color the sound. When I went to a new, non-corroded, wire the sound improved. If I were to take brand new Home Depot wire and the Emotiva wire I would have a hard time measuring, subjectively or objectively, any discernible difference. However, If I took my 10 year old corroded wire and measured against the Emotiva wire there would be a measurable difference, both objectively and subjectively.
Again, if you take two new, out of the box, sets of speaker wire (or any other interconnects) and hear a difference then that difference should be measurable. That difference can be explained as one set is coloring the sound more and the other is coloring the sound less. What you prefer is all that matters in your system. IMO
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Mar 4, 2013 23:30:43 GMT -5
A cable shootout at Emofest would still be of great value. One was to be set up at the last Emofest (2012) , but there wasn't a lot of interest.
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 4, 2013 23:37:40 GMT -5
The issue I have with most things written about blind tests (single, double, triple) is that there is always an inbuilt assumption that we are listening to deterimine the best, or better or worse etc. The fact is when initially comparing cables I'm not in the least bit interested in better, best or worst. First I'd like to actually hear a difference, any difference. I can easily hear the difference between a $100 speaker and a $1,000 speaker, but I can' t hear the difference between a $100 cable and a $1,000 cable.
I don't care whether that difference is good or bad, I'd just like to hear a difference to start off with. Once I have heard a difference, then I might interested in which is better, or worse. But after 30+ years of listening I've never heard a difference between good cables, great cables, expensive cables or exotic cables. They all sound the same to my ears, maybe not to others.
Cheers Gary
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Post by arthurz on Mar 4, 2013 23:41:50 GMT -5
I guess you can add a simple BS detector to such tests – make it an A/A test every few iterations. See how many comments on the difference in geometry of the soundstage you get .
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2013 1:14:50 GMT -5
It confounds me why people who don't believe in speaker wire, interconnects etc. feel it is there God given right to try and convince everyone that they are right and everyone else is a fool. If a person says they here differences than so be it. If ypu don't believe it then good save your money and don't try to spend someone elses money. It always seems as if the people who think they hear differences just state it and dont't feel that they need to go on a crusade to say that thoes that don't are fools. Some people know whart their ears tell them and thats it. No harm no foul. let them think what they must in peace, because there are people that think paying Emotiva prices for gear is foolish and there is nothing yopu can say to convince them otherwise. Value is in the eye of the deholder. The exact opposite is equally true. Just depends on which side of the fence you are on. Your opinion is not so fair and balanced IMO. There are zealots on both sides of this question.
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Post by garym on Mar 5, 2013 1:15:06 GMT -5
I guess you can add a simple BS detector to such tests – make it an A/A test every few iterations. See how many comments on the difference in geometry of the soundstage you get . On a related note, the Bay Area Audiophile Society recently conducted a DSD DAC shoot-out. Four units were compared, ranging in price from $850 to $13,000. Although the test setup was flawed in several ways --- the worst being that the units were not level-matched --- of the ten "blind" listeners, only one correctly identified the 4 DACS, though they'd listened to them all prior to the blindfolding and thought some sounded "better" and some "worse." Even more interesting, one of the blind tests compared DSD files with 44.1/16 PCM files. According to Bob Walters, the guy who set up the test, there was "no joy" there, either (which I take means few or none could tell the difference). www.audiostream.com/content/guitar-sings-dsd-dacs-shoot-it-out?utm_source=Blue+Coast+Records+Preferred+Customer&utm_campaign=d415d93c4a-New_MQD_EP_New_DSD_Art_Lande_Solo_Piano_3_3_2013&utm_medium=emailbaasnotes.com/forum2/index.php/topic,204.0.html Be sure and read all the comments. To be sure, Audiophilia is a land rife with myth and mysticism.
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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 5, 2013 7:22:50 GMT -5
To be sure, Audiophilia is a land rife with myth and mysticism. Yes, it is.
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Post by drtrey3 on Mar 5, 2013 9:24:54 GMT -5
As a psychologist I often have to break bad news to people. "Sorry, it is not possible to raise your IQ." Or, "Sadly, this brain damage will only slightly improve" or even "I hate to disagree with you, but I just do not think your main problem is the aliens flying close formation drills in your back yard."
I have found that a kind heart and sympathetic ear make it much, much easier for the listener to consider what I am saying when it is challenging to their deeply held beliefs or hopes. Any trace of insult or superiority on my part is death to my attempts to persuade. But then, I am trying to persuade, not demean or criticize. Let him who has ears to hear . . .
And for the record, the most expensive cables I own are from BlueJean and the high dollar speaker wire in my system cost $5 each from Area 51.
Trey
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 5, 2013 10:32:40 GMT -5
I guess you can add a simple BS detector to such tests – make it an A/A test every few iterations. See how many comments on the difference in geometry of the soundstage you get . On a related note, the Bay Area Audiophile Society recently conducted a DSD DAC shoot-out. Four units were compared, ranging in price from $850 to $13,000. Although the test setup was flawed in several ways --- the worst being that the units were not level-matched --- of the ten "blind" listeners, only one correctly identified the 4 DACS, though they'd listened to them all prior to the blindfolding and thought some sounded "better" and some "worse." Even more interesting, one of the blind tests compared DSD files with 44.1/16 PCM files. According to Bob Walters, the guy who set up the test, there was "no joy" there, either (which I take means few or none could tell the difference). www.audiostream.com/content/guitar-sings-dsd-dacs-shoot-it-out?utm_source=Blue+Coast+Records+Preferred+Customer&utm_campaign=d415d93c4a-New_MQD_EP_New_DSD_Art_Lande_Solo_Piano_3_3_2013&utm_medium=emailbaasnotes.com/forum2/index.php/topic,204.0.html Be sure and read all the comments. To be sure, Audiophilia is a land rife with myth and mysticism. What I find interesting (this being said without having actually looked at the links you posted above yet) is that any audiophile group would actually even dare to admit they could not hear differences. ;D That must have gotten them blacklisted.
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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 5, 2013 10:56:18 GMT -5
Diffewence?
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