Audiophoolery

[arthurz]

If you really believe you can hear a difference (speaker wire, USB cables, SACD, CD transport, "good enough" amplifiers, etc.), why not formalize the test, and publish the results. You'll be the first in the world! You might even claim a huge prize from the likes of James Randi.

I'm probably wasting my keystrokes... I just find it incredible that in the 21st century one can still see such a prevalent anti-scientific bias. This manifests itself in not just audiophoolery, but also horoscopes, homeopathy, magical healing, talking to the dead, efficient market hypothesis (sorry, had to...), and all the other bunk. Simply incredible.

Maybe the Emotiva folks would be interested in rationally specifying what matters and what doesn't (which would itself be a very valuable resource), and offer up a prize for proving otherwise? You guys don't have much downside (the snobs who think it makes sense to "invest" thousands of dollars in speaker cables are definitely not buying your products), and you could get a lot of good publicity in more rational circles. What do you say?

[DYohn]

One of the things that keeps me aligned with Emotiva is Lonnie and Dan statements that they sell cables with "science-based" design.

[thepcguy]

Mar 4, 2013 16:48:49 GMT -5 arthurz said:

why not formalize the test, and publish the results. You'll be the first in the world!

Nobody, and I say NOBODY will take your challenge.

Be careful because you are in the minority here. I could count maybe one or two. Now it's three including you ;D

[Chuck Elliot]

Make that 4.

Although I think that some things make a big difference, speaker cable, interconnects, power cords and snake-oil are not among them.

[jdskycaster]

But if audiophools stop believing in this stuff what will I do with my stockpile of cryogenically treated copper wire?

[Chuck Elliot]

Mar 4, 2013 20:10:53 GMT -5 jdskycaster said:

But if audiophools stop believing in this stuff what will I do with my stockpile of cryogenically treated copper wire?

Flux Capacitors?

[DYohn]

The absolute best thing you can do to improve the sound of any audio system, and I am not even messing around here, is to use high quality duct tape and seal all your doors and windows, then open a bottle of nitrous oxide to achieve an approximate 20-25% saturation in your room. Trust me, EVERYTHING will sound better then.

[arthurz]

I think it's clear that speakers make a huge difference. Preamps and DACs are almost certainly there.

I do wonder about amps (other than the amount of power, and intentional distortion, as in tube amps). Where do you stand? Was Richard Clark's amp challenge legitimately conducted? It would seem to negate all class differences (e.g. A vs. D)...

Also, at one point KeithL suggested that various digital cables theoretically might have different jitter characteristics. Is there anything there, or is it just a theoretical possibility (i.e. all real-world USB cables are practically indistinguishable)?

[kml]

At age 50 with no wife and no kids I said "Hell, I've always wanted a nice stereo system I'm gonna get me one". Looking around the net for amp reviews I stumbled upon the XPA-2 review at Audioholics and said, sold!

I ordered some equipment, speakers and a turntable all based upon specs, strung it together with the cables it came with and lamp cord for the speakers and said, "look at me, I'm an audiophile!".

How wrong I was....

I joined a few audiophile forums expecting them to be a cross between a science club, a music appreciation society and a automotive testing magazine. Instead I found a patronizing condescending anti-science world full of quackery and sham marketing to rival any psychic Wiccan fair.

Color me disappointed. There are a few good sites but each is small oasis in a desert of bullshit.

This is the only audio forum I post on, it has a remarkable number of clear, objective, refreshing posters for it's size. I think the dollar/performance ratio of Emotiva products attracts a more sober, reflective customer and that is reflected in the quality of this forum.

You can add me to the list of Objectivsts on the forum.

cheers
ken

[arthurz]

Ken, my experience and thoughts exactly. I had high hopes for Computer Audiophile, but it's turned out to be the worst by far.

[DYohn]

Mar 4, 2013 20:33:29 GMT -5 kml said:

I joined a few audiophile forums expecting them to be a cross between a science club, a music appreciation society and automotive testing magazine. Instead I found a patronizing condescending anti-science world full of quackery and sham marketing to rival any psychic Wiccan fair.

That's one of the best descriptions I've read in a long time. Thanks for that!!

[Boomzilla]

Gentlemen -

From a scientific standpoint, it's a difficult task to measure ANY difference between interconnects, speaker cable, and lamp wire. They all do the same thing - conduct electricity (or not, if you buy cheap enough ones). Volts are volts, ohms are ohms, and amperes are amperes.

I knew enough about electricity in 1975 to be HIGHLY skeptical that there could possibly be any difference between wires of equivalent length and gauge. It's fair to say that what I heard when I listened to the Kimber 4TC speaker wire surprised me greatly.

I didn't expect to hear any difference - I didn't really want to hear any difference - but the difference was so plain that a room full of listeners picked it out every single time (even when the salesman tried to fool us by using the same wires to see if we could hear a difference).

To this day, I've seen no clear, rational, scientific explanation for WHY the Monster and Kimber speaker wires sounded different. The most logical guess that I've made is that the environment may have had high RF content and that the parallel wires of the Monster Cable somehow acted as an antenna while the twisted conductors of the Kimber didn't. This is ONLY a guess, though.

I claim that it is the meter readers who deny what their ears actually hear because they can't explain it.

I walked into the Kimber demo with no specific expectations (other than that there was unlikely to be any difference), no financial bias, and no reason to delude myself as to what I heard.

Do I expect to convince you that I heard that difference? No I don't. You may believe what you wish. Despite how many times you repeat "the emperor has no clothes" it doesn't necessarily make it true.

So have I tried Peter Belt treatments, magic stones, room-karma cleansers, or feng-shui? No I haven't. Am I skeptical that they make any difference? Yes I am. Just as skeptical as I was that wires could possibly sound different until I heard Kimber.

Despite the fact that the world is full of quackery (and maybe nowhere more so than in "high-end" audio), my final arbiter is NOT my science textbook, but my own ears. This is the crux of our differences. Believe what you want. I know what I hear.

Cordially - Boomzilla

[arthurz]

I just checked Kimber's website. Here's what they have to say about the 4TC: "The focus, transparency and transient speed of 4TC are stunning." What is focus? What does it mean for a cable to have a high or low "transient speed"?

I think the proper response is to question your own senses, which happen to be super fallible by the way, and trust the measurements. If the difference is real, and nothing can be measured, it really would indicate that an entirely new physical phenomenon might be discovered. Do you really think it's likely in a field so well developed? This isn't exactly quantum mechanics.

[kml]

Mar 4, 2013 20:38:14 GMT -5 arthurz said:

kml, my experience and thoughts exactly. I had high hopes for Computer Audiophile, but it's turned out to be the worst by far.

There was a series of post by a fellow, esldude, who used null test to show the only difference between cables he could measure was due to a dac timing issue, WAY below the audible noise floor of the music and instead of shutting up and learning from someone who is obviously very knowledgeable they harangued him off the forum. Fools...

www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/wheres-esldude-13539/

www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/esldude/why-i-never-got-perfect-null-difference-testing-part-one-256/

cheers
ken

[rohrej]

Mar 4, 2013 20:27:16 GMT -5 DYohn said:

The absolute best thing you can do to improve the sound of any audio system, and I am not even messing around here, is to use high quality duct tape and seal all your doors and windows, then open a bottle of nitrous oxide to achieve an approximate 20-25% saturation in your room. Trust me, EVERYTHING will sound better then.

You'll want to make sure that's at least 20% pure Georgia Silver duct tape when you do that...

[guitarforlife]

I know I have posted my far share of "anti" audio and I call myself a stereo enthusiast.

My main view on all the blah blah blah and audio voodoo is this.

The human body is UNIQUE and DIFFERENT on to ones self.

So If My ears are SLIGHTLY different then yours and yours and yours and all the writers in all the stereo magazines and all the designers and all well you get ware I'm going here.

Then my Idea of "good" "great" or "bad" will be different then any of them.

So if what I hear as good must be good . To me.

So if some simple or cheap product sounds good to me why should I chase a ghost?

[Cheeku]

make it 6

[arthurz]

Boomzilla, please check out this link: www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html

He suggests that any real audible differences might simply be due to extremely uneven room response caused by comb filtering. Basically what it's saying is that you pretty much have to stick your head in a vise to get reproducible results and be in a position to A/B test anything.

[Boomzilla]

I'm in the minority on this thread and this board. I understand what you're saying and I'm sympathetic. I still hear what I hear. I voted with my wallet and you can vote with yours. I said before that I don't expect to convince you. I can further assure you that you won't convince me.

Cheers - Boomzilla

[kml]

Mar 4, 2013 20:27:16 GMT -5 DYohn said:

The absolute best thing you can do to improve the sound of any audio system, and I am not even messing around here, is to use high quality duct tape and seal all your doors and windows, then smoke a big fattie to achieve an approximate 20-25% saturation in your room. Trust me, EVERYTHING will sound better then.

Fixed that for ya... ;D

cheers
ken