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Post by dust770 on Feb 21, 2014 15:43:26 GMT -5
I have been looking at the PSA subs for a while now but one of the reasons I decided to pass is, of the two subs I considered neither of them (according to their measurements) went to 20hz. The sealed xs15 started dropping off at 45 hz and the ported version at 30hz. Didn't seem like the best match for a theater sub, of course that may not be your purpose, but in my case I do need(want) the 20hz response. Either way I'll look forward to you're review.
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selkec
Emo VIPs 
SCREW YOU GUYS, IM GOING HOME!!!
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Post by selkec on Feb 22, 2014 1:23:40 GMT -5
Gentlemen - I'm on the verge of buying one or two PSA SB-15 subwoofers. Before I do, I need to ask if Emotiva plans to offer anything comparable? I don't need specifics (nor an availability date), just a general statement that either "no, Emotiva will have subs, but significantly different in design," or "yes, you might want to wait before buying." Thanks - Boomzilla build your own out of parts express flat packs and some 18's and a pro audio amp. Diy all the way. Its easy as gluing wood together. and it will produce much more than a bought put together sub. especially from a company that does not specialize in subs. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 19:50:47 GMT -5
I don't know why EMO is dragging their feet so much on the new subs. Who's designing these things, father time? How hard is it to design something that will perform great? a few weeks at most if they have any clue how to design anything. Drivers can be sourced until they can get an exact driver to fit the bill. If JTR can get 8 prototype drivers built by FI in under a month, what the hell is Emo doing?
It's not rocket science.....
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Post by digijam on Feb 23, 2014 20:04:47 GMT -5
I 'need' a pair of sealed and affordable, small box (20" cube at most) 15" subs to replace my aged and overworked Ultra-12 subs. I just love the amount of air my former Velodyne FSR 1500 was able to move even at low volume. Hopefully, Emo can start working on their promised X-REF 15 once the XMC-1 is out the way. They would make a nice Christmas present.  |
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Post by Andrew Robinson on Feb 23, 2014 20:09:17 GMT -5
I don't know why EMO is dragging their feet so much on the new subs. Who's designing these things, father time? How hard is it to design something that will perform great? a few weeks at most if they have any clue how to design anything. Drivers can be sourced until they can get an exact driver to fit the bill. If JTR can get 8 prototype drivers built by FI in under a month, what the hell is Emo doing? It's not rocket science..... Wow, that was a little aggressive don't you think? The guys aren't dragging their feet on anything, there's just a lot going on right now. One of the goings on happens to be subwoofers. |
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Post by digijam on Feb 23, 2014 20:16:03 GMT -5
I don't know why EMO is dragging their feet so much on the new subs. Who's designing these things, father time? How hard is it to design something that will perform great? a few weeks at most if they have any clue how to design anything. Drivers can be sourced until they can get an exact driver to fit the bill. If JTR can get 8 prototype drivers built by FI in under a month, what the hell is Emo doing? It's not rocket science..... Wow, that was a little aggressive don't you think? The guys aren't dragging their feet on anything, there's just a lot going on right now. One of the goings on happens to be subwoofers. Nice |
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Post by Jim on Feb 23, 2014 20:57:25 GMT -5
I'm not quite sure how open hostility is going to get a product to market sooner... But whatever.
I believe that based on Dans comments at Emofest, he's not looking to make more products that simply compete. He wants to be able to differentiate from what's on the market. The subwoofer market is already flooded.
A good a sub from Emotiva won't turn heads. An incredible one will.
Anyone can stick a good driver in a box and stick their brand on it. The real remarkable subs aren't just a good driver in a box.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 23, 2014 21:08:35 GMT -5
WELL SAID, Jim. Even though I just bought a "much better than average" and maybe even "OMG Awesome" sub from another vendor, I'll be watching Emotiva closely.
It may have NOTHING to do with development time on the speaker (and sub) lines, but I suspect Emotiva's pencil pushers are still all occupied nursing the XMC-1 along to its debut.
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Post by monkumonku on Feb 23, 2014 21:51:36 GMT -5
I'm not quite sure how open hostility is going to get a product to market sooner... But whatever. I believe that based on Dans comments at Emofest, he's not looking to make more products that simply compete. He wants to be able to differentiate from what's on the market. The subwoofer market is already flooded. A good a sub from Emotiva won't turn heads. An incredible one will. Anyone can stick a good driver in a box and stick their brand on it. The real remarkable subs aren't just a good driver in a box. Agreed. There are plenty of good subs out there already, and Emo is not a company that is known for its subs. So it has to overcome that issue or it will just be another sub on the market. It has to offer something that really brings value to the table, otherwise what's the point? |
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 23, 2014 22:10:07 GMT -5
Personally I think Emotiva can stamp their mark on the sub woofer range by the quality of the amplifiers that they utilise. Emotiva are great at amps, even the most toffy nosed reviewers reluctantly admit that Emotiva amps frequently outperform those of much more expensive and esteemed brands. Drivers are externally sourced and there's not much private trading going on there. An enclosure is....well...after all... just a nice box, plenty of easy DIY solutions available there. Amplifiers, that's the game where Emotiva has an edge, if it were me I'd be exploiting that advantage.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by garbulky on Feb 23, 2014 23:29:18 GMT -5
A revamped subwoofer and speaker line up would complete the entire lineup. A one-stop shop of quality audio. I predict an increased sales overall for everything when they pull it off. There's a huge draw to this. I can just refer people to Emotiva.com and there ya go....everything you need!  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2014 0:15:42 GMT -5
I don't know why EMO is dragging their feet so much on the new subs. Who's designing these things, father time? How hard is it to design something that will perform great? a few weeks at most if they have any clue how to design anything. Drivers can be sourced until they can get an exact driver to fit the bill. If JTR can get 8 prototype drivers built by FI in under a month, what the hell is Emo doing? It's not rocket science..... Wow, that was a little aggressive don't you think? The guys aren't dragging their feet on anything, there's just a lot going on right now. One of the goings on happens to be subwoofers. I dunno if thats aggressive but it's the truth, take it however you want. They had some reference design years ago, then scrapped it, then some other design, scrapped it, then this new prototype sub thats spotted, still nothing. It's been years.... How does it take that much time to design a sub? It's been forever. I can build you one right now, Dayton UM18 - $275, 750 watt bash amp - $400 ( probably wholesale for under $300) 3.5 - 4CF box (give or take $150 including finish) There you go, for around $800 sub before volume discount that you could sell for around 1K and it will perform better than a DD18.... And you don't have to design anything! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2014 0:19:11 GMT -5
I'm not quite sure how open hostility is going to get a product to market sooner... But whatever. I believe that based on Dans comments at Emofest, he's not looking to make more products that simply compete. He wants to be able to differentiate from what's on the market. The subwoofer market is already flooded. A good a sub from Emotiva won't turn heads. An incredible one will. Anyone can stick a good driver in a box and stick their brand on it. The real remarkable subs aren't just a good driver in a box. Thats exactly what they are, good driver and a good amp in a box........ |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 24, 2014 6:43:49 GMT -5
No question that the Parts-Express/Dayton stuff is a pure bargain. Some folks just aren't into DIY, though. There are excellent plug & play solutions for under $1K (like the Powersound Audio XV15), and "upscale" products from SVS & Rythmik for twice the PSA price. There are also the throw-aways from the speaker makers (Klipsch, JBL, Polk, and the usual suspects).
Can Emotiva do better? We'll see! Getting a merely "competitive" product to market could have been done much sooner. Getting a market-leadeing subwoofer to market, though, is FAR harder. If Emo wants to lead, then they'd BETTER do their homework, assess ALL the competition, and then offer something REALLY extraordinary.
What might I like to see? A "self-analyzing" smart-sub that will evaluate the room it's in by echo analysis & then use DSP to compensate. This would make the thing a "one button setup" device that would not only be consumer friendly but also offer an order of magnitude better performance than standard, "stupid" subs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2014 12:37:32 GMT -5
No question that the Parts-Express/Dayton stuff is a pure bargain. Some folks just aren't into DIY, though. There are excellent plug & play solutions for under $1K (like the Powersound Audio XV15), and "upscale" products from SVS & Rythmik for twice the PSA price. There are also the throw-aways from the speaker makers (Klipsch, JBL, Polk, and the usual suspects). Can Emotiva do better? We'll see! Getting a merely "competitive" product to market could have been done much sooner. Getting a market-leadeing subwoofer to market, though, is FAR harder. If Emo wants to lead, then they'd BETTER do their homework, assess ALL the competition, and then offer something REALLY extraordinary. What might I like to see? A "self-analyzing" smart-sub that will evaluate the room it's in by echo analysis & then use DSP to compensate. This would make the thing a "one button setup" device that would not only be consumer friendly but also offer an order of magnitude better performance than standard, "stupid" subs. I can see if Emo was making a horn sub, the amount of time would be more but still nothing close to how long they've been doddling around. A DSP sub would be cool but with audyssey and alike, its a waste of time IMO. No Emo speakers or subs Ive evry heard are anything to write home about. The stealths are nice but thats not even geared to HT. Id put money on what ever new sub they bring out to be nothing special vs svs etc. So far theyve not shown it anyways. BUT I guess we shall see. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 3:16:49 GMT -5
No question that the Parts-Express/Dayton stuff is a pure bargain. Some folks just aren't into DIY, though. There are excellent plug & play solutions for under $1K (like the Powersound Audio XV15), and "upscale" products from SVS & Rythmik for twice the PSA price. There are also the throw-aways from the speaker makers (Klipsch, JBL, Polk, and the usual suspects). Can Emotiva do better? We'll see! Getting a merely "competitive" product to market could have been done much sooner. Getting a market-leadeing subwoofer to market, though, is FAR harder. If Emo wants to lead, then they'd BETTER do their homework, assess ALL the competition, and then offer something REALLY extraordinary. What might I like to see? A "self-analyzing" smart-sub that will evaluate the room it's in by echo analysis & then use DSP to compensate. This would make the thing a "one button setup" device that would not only be consumer friendly but also offer an order of magnitude better performance than standard, "stupid" subs. I can see if Emo was making a horn sub, the amount of time would be more but still nothing close to how long they've been doddling around. A DSP sub would be cool but with audyssey and alike, its a waste of time IMO. No Emo speakers or subs Ive evry heard are anything to write home about. The stealths are nice but thats not even geared to HT. Id put money on what ever new sub they bring out to be nothing special vs svs etc. So far theyve not shown it anyways. BUT I guess we shall see. Too bad he thinks my Emo reference speakers are nothing to write home about. I am extremely happy with mine. I've owned a few speakers over the last 45 years and heard very many over the last 45 years, of different designs and price ranges. In my relatively small condo HT room (with an equally small retirement budget) with 300 watts per channel into 4 ohms (XPA-5) my 5 Emo speakers matched with a very good sub sound oh so nice to my ears for both music and movies. Yes, I've heard many JBL's, Klipsch's, Altec Lansing, Electro-Voice, M&K's, Vandersteen, Maggies, ML, Tannoy, AR, Infinity, Snell, you name it, going way back. My Emo speakers are extremely natural, defined and flat as well as having very high power handling. As for price/performance they are the best bang for the buck speaker I have ever owned. Of course I'm sure the LFM-1 Plus sub is in no way up to his sub standards as I can see from the signature an awesome sub setup. That said I haven't bought the previous Emo subs as they were not a match for my requirements. I even said so politely in the past in a post. Other than for what I think the X-Ref subs are great for I have recommended people look to online direct firms for many models of subs. When Emo comes out with a new sub I'll take a serious look at it. I will buy it or recommend it if it seems to fit in a best buy for music and/or movies. Emotiva is a factory direct to buyer firm. They cannot and do not offer everything to all. Many times their best plans get delayed or canceled. I consider myself lucky when they come out with a model that no other firm can touch for anywhere near the price. I have been waiting for a company like Emo for 40 years. It seems as if I have always been strapped for cash and have look carefully for bargains. I bought for years from "mail order" firms at discount prices as well as local dealers on sale. My Altec Lansing 846U's list $800 in 1972 cost me $620 shipped, no tax. My Marantz 2270 in 1972 $600 cost me $379 plus shipping, no tax. Later with the Internet I bought frequently from online discount dealers. I almost never owned more than one product from the same brand and almost never paid MSRP, even when we had fair trade laws in Worshington State. Five years ago I discovered Emotiva. It didn't take me long to realize this was exactly the type of business I had been waiting for. I now own 5 speakers, 2 powered speakers, one 5 channel power amp, one CD player, phono stage, one DAC and upcoming pre-pro all from this one company, plus accessories. I have found nothing that comes close including the speakers for the price/performance value I have. This is a dedicated forum provided by Emotiva. IMO if one wants to provide polite constructive criticism, fine. But to come here and repeatedly complain and post insults about the same issues over and over, delayed product development, changed product designs, CEO that changes his mind, becomes oh so fatiguing, just like a poor quality speaker. If one can do a better job and make equally good components at the same low prices, please feel free to gather the investment capital and have a go at your own company. Alternatively, you could submit your resume to the CEO of Emotiva. Perhaps he might hire you as a consultant. Thanks  |
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Post by yves on Feb 25, 2014 5:59:53 GMT -5
Personally I think Emotiva can stamp their mark on the sub woofer range by the quality of the amplifiers that they utilise. Emotiva are great at amps, even the most toffy nosed reviewers reluctantly admit that Emotiva amps frequently outperform those of much more expensive and esteemed brands. Drivers are externally sourced and there's not much private trading going on there. An enclosure is....well...after all... just a nice box, plenty of easy DIY solutions available there. Amplifiers, that's the game where Emotiva has an edge, if it were me I'd be exploiting that advantage. Cheers Gary Do you mean Emotiva doesn't have the balls to create proprietary drivers that will be a crucial part in achieving state of the art performance? Do you mean the speaker cabinets of high end speaker products from respected brands these days are still being developed without the use of extremely complex computer simulation tech, just like they were in the bronze age?  |
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Post by pop on Feb 25, 2014 11:32:56 GMT -5
I owned the Xref-12. Where it is a Fantastic candidate for a smaller closed room, it isn't going to meet the requirements a lot of us have for huge IMAX bass. Based on the appearance of the new tower they are working on, I highly doubt Emotiva is going to put out a sub that will compete with other manufacturers who direct their business to that product alone. What I mean by this, is I think the new sub will be a sleek, capable, sealed, handsome sub. More towards the WAF factor, or smaller footprint side not towards raw output. Sure you can have both of those together, but that gets expensive. Think about it, IF Emotiva puts out an earth shattering sub, they will soon be bested by companies like SVS, PSA, Rythmik etc. These companies are not going to let Emotiva have the corner on a market they play in specifically. Why would Emotiva put out a product (sub) that another manufacturer will obsolete in 1 months time should it grab a bunch of attention? I honestly think the sub is Emotiva's biggest afterthought. There are A LOT of really bad ass subs out there. Seeing that it is not important to match your sub to your speakers, where does this leave Emotiva? Are they trying to enter the realm of game changing subwoofer, or are they going to put out a product simply to match a new product line? Emotiva has more overhead than companies who are solely producing subwoofers. When you take on a new product the cost for this venture accumulates numbers from all projects going. The sub doesn't necessarily have a "cost" of it's own, you still need to keep a solid profit margin. Example: XMC has it's own cost, subwoofer has it's own cost. At the end of the day you have to keep a balance on the cost for both of these to hit the end percentage you need to operate your business. Now you have to balance budgets between projects (which they have a lot of). So if the XMC is running over budget, you get a cheaper amp in the sub, or 1 HDMI output instead of 2. Smaller companies that manufacture only subs have much lower overhead and can put better parts together for less money. This makes it challenging for Emo. I realize that the same could be said for the new passive line, but I have lived with the Xref-12 and 6.3s for quite some time. the Xref-12 I want to be rid of, the 6.3s I will never sell. As far as their speakers go Chuckie is 100% correct. I doubted the ERM-6.3s in a larger room until I ditched the Xref-12 and added the PSA subs. The old speaker line is incredible once matched with capable subs. I believe they should still be up on the site. Maybe with limited quantities to keep overhead down. With the subs they (6.3s) sound better than anything I have listened to in the Magnolia room here. Before matching the subs I was jealous of every speaker in that room. Now that they are beautifully mated, I laugh at the prices on the B&W, Sonus Faber, etc. I laugh at them because I purchased all 5 of my speakers for like $1,200 on Holiday sale? Emotiva truly knocked the old speaker line out of the park. It took me a while to realize but I am glad I was patient. I think Dan and crew have so much to offer the world with their speakers. Subs, maybe not so much. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 25, 2014 12:43:17 GMT -5
...As far as their speakers go Chuckie is 100% correct... I've rarely seen him be less. Just sayin' |
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 25, 2014 14:38:47 GMT -5
Personally I think Emotiva can stamp their mark on the sub woofer range by the quality of the amplifiers that they utilise. Emotiva are great at amps, even the most toffy nosed reviewers reluctantly admit that Emotiva amps frequently outperform those of much more expensive and esteemed brands. Drivers are externally sourced and there's not much private trading going on there. An enclosure is....well...after all... just a nice box, plenty of easy DIY solutions available there. Amplifiers, that's the game where Emotiva has an edge, if it were me I'd be exploiting that advantage. Do you mean Emotiva doesn't have the balls to create proprietary drivers that will be a crucial part in achieving state of the art performance? Do you mean the speaker cabinets of high end speaker products from respected brands these days are still being developed without the use of extremely complex computer simulation tech, just like they were in the bronze age? Not really, I think you are confusing engineering skill with marketing and selling the product. What I was suggesting was, that compared to many sub specialists, Emotiva's unique selling proposition is it's obvious advantage in amplifiers. Some would call it playing to your strengths from a marketing perspective. They may well be good at driver and enclosure designs, perhaps even great, but that's an argument yet to be won. Not the case with amplifiers, Emotiva are recognised, often begrudgingly, as top quality. Competing with and often outperforming amplifiers of many times their cost. Conversely PSA, Velodyne, JTR, SVS, etc aren't renown for the amplifiers that they use in their subs. A lot of their customers probably don't even know what type of amplifier is in their sub. By all means Emotiva can kick their asses in engineering enclosures and drivers, that will take time to be accepted. But in amplifiers Emotiva already has credibility and therefore no time is needed to sell that. On a personal note, I would also add that I'm a firm believer that the quality of a sub woofer amplifier is just as important as any other amplifier in a sound system. Particularly so for music. Us audio nut cases spend hours studying mono block amp specs, reading reviews, comparing one against another and yet often the biggest, most powerfull mono block in our system, the sub amp, is given no more than a cursory glance. Cheers Gary |
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