A question for Emotiva about subwoofers

[Deleted]

Feb 25, 2014 23:47:48 GMT -5 @chuckienut said:

Feb 25, 2014 19:37:37 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

I can say whatever the heck I want about emo speakers. I love emo amps and sources but I don't think their speakers are that great, what, I have to love every single thing they make? Give your head a shake Chuckie, I never said they were garbage, I just personally don't think they are any better than anything else I've heard in their price range ie, they are nothing special, as in they are not better than others that they are competing with....

How am I going to give you facts on personal opinion?

My personal opinion is based on the "fact" I personally setup the Emo system I heard. 3 x 8.3's and 4 x ERD-1 (2 X-ref 12's although the main theater had 2 DIY 18's that I personally built for that customer) I did a audyssey pro install, in which I've done over 80 to this day, starting about 5 years ago.
His theater sounded fine, they were not a great choice for a theater of his size (1000 SF) The speakers were harsh and tinny at reference, even the customer though so, at normal listening levels (80-90dB) they sounded fine, I never though "OMG these are amazing!" at any point but it's not as if they sounded bad. Regular speakers don't generally do very well in HT applications at high volume level and to those that have no heard a HE design, you're missing out.

If this forum was all rainbows and puppydog tails and never a negative thing was said, it would be the only place on the entire internet that was that way. You have to take the good with the bad, if Emotive is really that unhappy with me for saying I don't think their speakers are special? They can ban my account as they see fit.

I did a audyssey pro install   Harsh and tinny?  What were you driving them with, an AVR?  Maybe you should come over to my place and see how a system is correctly set up.  No audyssey here, thank you.  If you heard harsh and tinny you must have had Ntrain42 helping you.   

Tinny and harsh AT REFERENCE like with pretty much any other soft dome tweeter design, in his room, I had to bold that for you since you appeared to miss it.

[Deleted]

The Signatures have sizzle.  The Emo silk dome tweeter does not and is very sweet and smooth.

I can appreciate where Nathan is coming from.  It is way before his time but I used to have in my living room two Altec Lansing 846's, modified Altec Voice of the Theater for home use.  I know about huge dynamic range.  BTW, these are the home version of the same speakers (only two them for a 6 piece blues band) that Willie Dixon used at his concert at the Seattle Center Outdoor Amphitheater.  However great they sounded, and yes I helped a friend put on a concert production at a large church with my Altec's, two of the Emo's (4 ohms) plus sub in my modest condo living room are superior from bottom to top with about 400 watts per channel.

[Deleted]

Nathan, serious question.  What receiver did you use to drive the Emo's in your set up?  

PS:  Reference level is a broad term.  I would be the first to admit the Emo soft dome might not hit the output of some horns in my room but my output levels are very loud when desired.

[Deleted]

It was an Onkyo 5509 processor and Emotiva XPA-5 and XPA - 2 Chuckie, not receiver. aS I said, they sounded fine at decent volume but harsh and tinny at reference, Chuckie, even my 7K signature 8's sounded harsh as Reference. Why are you taking it personally? Relax man. Thats great it they sound good in your room, all the power to you.

[Deleted]

Reference is not a broad term it's exactly 105 dB PEAKS at the listening position for the main channels and 115 dB PEAK for the LFE channel. It's very well defined.

[Deleted]

Sorry Nathan but I would need more facts like were the 8.3's run at full range?  I presume you understand why I am asking.  If you were running them at full range then you were very likely hitting clipping on the lower bass power demands depending on what you consider reference.  If you had set them up properly (IMO of course and not with Audyssey) they would have avoided clipping because the subs would have taken over at 80Hz.  I don't care if they do have two 8" drivers and many here will think it is heresy to let the sub (I'm talking about excellent subs) take over at 80Hz.  That will prevent what you probably heard.  I asked about a receiver because many custmers would have owned only the big power receiver, all of which would clip at very high output on the 4 ohm Emo's.

OK, I'll give you a break today and call the chicken off for now. 

[Deleted]

Feb 26, 2014 0:16:32 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

Reference is not a broad term it's exactly 105 dB PEAKS at the listening position for the main channels and 115 dB PEAK for the LFE channel. It's very well defined.

Yes, exactly, sorry but some folks misunderstand the term reference and don't have any means to test for reference levels.  

There is no way the 8.3's will sound that way at 105dB's properly set up and powered.  

[Deleted]

Chuckie I'm done debating with you since you don't understand what you are talking about. 105dB at the "seating position" means in the customers case, the speakers would have to produce a clean 119dB at 13.5 feet to achieve 105dB peaks at the seating position.... You loose 14dB from the distance to the seating position from the speaker.... You just looking at numbers and not the whole picture.

All xovers were at 80hz, thx standard. So yes the 8.3's did sound harsh and tinny at those levels, whether you accept that doesn't make any difference, that was my take on them and no matter how much you debate the subject how or why they sounded that way, I've got a pretty firm grasp on the whole thing and will continue to think what ever the heck I see fit. You don't agree? Oh well, I guess I'll have to live out the rest of my life with your doubt in my ability's.... I think I'm ok with that...

[Gary Cook]

Feb 25, 2014 18:23:37 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

3. As far as Gary talking about amps and who uses what, I can't speak for velodyne but SVS uses their own bash amps and JTR uses speakerpower plate amps, the best plate amps on the market and I'd bet most JTR customers know what they are buying, they are not the same customers as who buys emotiva speakers, they are HT geared and Emotiva is not. As good as JTR subs are, I personally still wouldn't buy one, as I can build one myself for less money that performs better, no mass market or internet direct sub can compete with a DIY sub for price or performance for the money. DIY is not for everyone but designing a good sub is not hard, despite people thinking it's some magical design process, it's not I'm sorry to say.

I've always DIY'd my own subs, for decades, I had a 2.1 system when the stereophiles used to frown on them (even more than they do now). With them I've used al sorts of amps, off the shelf plate amps, stand alone amps and I've even built a few amps of my own because I couldn't find what I wanted at the time. My opinion, and it's only that, is that a properly spec'd driver with the right enclosure is only half the battle. Even the best of those combinations benefit from a good quality amp driving them. I've not tried a Speakerpower plate amp, but I have tried a couple of Bashes and not been impressed. The big issue, along with their sound, was the open backed design, I'm just not a fan of pressure exposed circuitry.


Cheers
Gary

[Deleted]

Feb 26, 2014 1:40:05 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

Chuckie I'm done debating with you since you don't understand what you are talking about. 105dB at the "seating position" means in the customers case, the speakers would have to produce a clean 119dB at 13.5 feet to achieve 105dB peaks at the seating position.... You loose 14dB from the distance to the seating position from the speaker.... You just looking at numbers and not the whole picture.

All xovers were at 80hz, thx standard. So yes the 8.3's did sound harsh and tinny at those levels, whether you accept that doesn't make any difference, that was my take on them and no matter how much you debate the subject how or why they sounded that way, I've got a pretty firm grasp on the whole thing and will continue to think what ever the heck I see fit. You don't agree? Oh well, I guess I'll have to live out the rest of my life with your doubt in my ability's.... I think I'm ok with that...

Sorry Nathan, but I didn't say anything about "105dB at the "seating position".  I did say:  "105dB's properly set up"   I consider the  comment "you don't understand what you are talking about" uncalled for.  I simply objected to your labeling Emotiva speakers nothing to call home about. That is a cute way of saying they are mediocre.  I take offense to that as a member of the Emotiva Lounge as that is not constructive criticism and the fact that you say you don't know what I'm talking about.  I don't know everything about lots in this hobby, I still have lots to learn and  you perhaps know all?  I have been in this hobby since 10 years before you were born.  I do know a few things about HT/audio.  The Audyssey system set the 8.3's at 80Hz, yeah sure. 

I don't wish to debate with you either but please knock off the negative cracks about Emotiva speakers.

 

[garbulky]

Chuckie, N8 is not dissing your speakers or your choices.
He thinks the ERT's are mediocre....and he is right. They are mediocre TO HIM. I haven't heard them. I may find it an amazing value or they may be garbage, but whatever I will find...will be right TO ME. And it's not a reflection on your gear or anythinbg of the sort. It's sort of pointless arguing about that. You are essentially telling him that he didn't hear what he heard. You know what I mean? I could tell you stop signs weren't red but would you believe me? Of course not!

Also....reference volume in a 1000 square foot room? Man, let me tell you my axioms would faint at those volumes or at least not sound good. You have to take the size of the room into account. There's large differences in speaker capability here when you consider room size. What sounds fantastic in one room doesn't naturally scale to sound just as fantastic "just softer" in larger rooms.

Also he is now used to a speaker system subs and all that costs probably close to 25-30k or more. If his system didn't mop the floor with the Emotiva's (and my speakers), I would be surprised. And that's not an insult!

I promise he isn't trying to insult your choices.

[Deleted]

Garbulky, sorry but I think you miss my point.  Nathan has every right to think the Emotiva speakers are mediocre and say so but not such a good idea here.  It is a matter of courtesy and respect.  My objection was that he made this statement at our Emotiva dedicated forum with nothing to back this up until later when he got defensive and then I don't believe his post.  Audyssey set up the 8.3's at 80 Hz, no way!   If he made the exact same comment about Emo speakers at the AVS forum I might disagree but wouldn't bother to even mention it.  Probably 95-98% of all buyers of Emo speakers have less than 1000 sq ft.  He is insulting all of them by commenting.  What good or for what reason would he even make that broad statement other than to be condescending to Emo owner's?  Emo does not make horn PA speakers.  He did make statements about Emo subs but that in no way justified the crack about the speakers.  Have I heard a lot worse about Emo speakers here?  Yes, but I guess it just now got to me with all the other negative posts about Big Dan, Lonnie and their speakers and XMC-1 delays.  I am only another member here and don't mean to jump on Nathan but I finally felt frustrated and obligated to speak up.  I know it sounds trite but if you can't handle it then either don't post or post a constructive comment or go away.  The whining becomes very fatiguing like many speakers with metal tweeters with elevated high ends.

Garbulky this is an Emotiva forum.  IMO members shouldn't come here and make those type of broad pontifications if you are a considerate person.  You might agree that I have never purposely said to you that I slightly prefer Emotiva reference speakers over the Axiom speakers because I know you have the M80's and I have not wanted to offend you.  

Of course this is a free country and one can say that they think the Emo speakers stink and Big Dan is a jerk.  However, I think it is polite and prudent to remember we are in Big Dan's privately owned house as a guest and bad mouthing him or his products carries the risk of being banished to the galaxy of general HT/audio forums.

Chuckie





This is a private forum owned and operated by Emotiva Audio.

This is not a street corner. You are not exercising constitutionally guaranteed free speech here; we DO NOT have to listen to, and endure, bad behavior. This is not a G8 summit!

Big Dan


   

[Boomzilla]

Hi Chuck -

You are right in a way. This is Big Dan's house and a bit of decorum toward his products may be appropriate.

However, if we're never allowed to state our true impressions of Emotiva products just because those impressions happen to be negative, then what's the use of the forum?

I've criticized Emo products that I didn't like, but I always state my reasons. Those who know me also know that I very much like Emotiva as a company. The vast majority of their products that I've owned have been not only exceptional performers in the ultimate sense but also stone bargains for the money spent. Occasionally, I find a product that I consider inadequate for my needs. When that happens, I say what I hear.

I don't consider it discourteous or disrespectful. I consider it "constructive criticism." If we all say that we love a product that we don't, then we do a disservice not only to each other but also to Emotiva. It would be like going to a fine restaurant, being served a really bad dish, and then the owner comes by and asks "how's the food?" Unless you tell the truth, the restaurant has not only lost your future business but also the business of all other customers who happen to order the same dish on that same night.

The reply to that restaurant owner is not private. Other customers can overhear. Our comments about Emotiva products are not private. This is a public forum.

Therefore, criticize if you must, but do it in a constructive manner. Merely saying "this product sucks" is neither polite nor constructive.

Boomzilla

[garbulky]

Feb 26, 2014 3:10:48 GMT -5 @chuckienut said:

Garbulky, sorry but I think you miss my point.  Nathan has every right to think the Emotiva speakers are mediocre and say so but not such a good idea here.  It is a matter of courtesy and respect.  My objection was that he made this statement at our Emotiva dedicated forum with nothing to back this up until later when he got defensive and then I don't believe his post.  Audyssey set up the 8.3's at 80 Hz, no way!   If he made the exact same comment about Emo speakers at the AVS forum I might disagree but wouldn't bother to even mention it.  Probably 95-98% of all buyers of Emo speakers have less than 1000 sq ft.  He is insulting all of them by commenting.  What good or for what reason would he even make that broad statement other than to be condescending to Emo owner's?  Emo does not make horn PA speakers.  He did make statements about Emo subs but that in no way justified the crack about the speakers.  Have I heard a lot worse about Emo speakers here?  Yes, but I guess it just now got to me with all the other negative posts about Big Dan, Lonnie and their speakers and XMC-1 delays.  I am only another member here and don't mean to jump on Nathan but I finally felt frustrated and obligated to speak up.  I know it sounds trite but if you can't handle it then either don't post or post a constructive comment or go away.  The whining becomes very fatiguing like many speakers with metal tweeters with elevated high ends.

Garbulky this is an Emotiva forum.  IMO members shouldn't come here and make those type of broad pontifications if you are a considerate person.  You might agree that I have never purposely said to you that I slightly prefer Emotiva reference speakers over the Axiom speakers because I know you have the M80's and I have not wanted to offend you.  

Of course this is a free country and one can say that they think the Emo speakers stink and Big Dan is a jerk.  However, I think it is polite and prudent to remember we are in Big Dan's privately owned house as a guest and bad mouthing him or his products carries the risk of being banished to the galaxy of general HT/audio forums.

Chuckie





This is a private forum owned and operated by Emotiva Audio.

This is not a street corner. You are not exercising constitutionally guaranteed free speech here; we DO NOT have to listen to, and endure, bad behavior. This is not a G8 summit!

Big Dan


   

I think it may be just the way we look at the same situation.
If I'm gathering right, you do not appreciate reading somebody saying that Emotiva speakers are mediocre (taken as a put down) on the Emotiva forum.
Well, I don't have a problem with that. As long as they aren't purposefully trying to be insulting and simply giving their impressions of it - no issues on my end. I do not like rudeness of course. But that's not what I saw in his evaluation. He even qualified what he meant when you asked him. "tinny, fine at lower volumes". So there's no issue to me. His backing statement was that's what he heard.

As for speakers. I've had solidstate tell me that "axioms are crap". And another poster mentioned that he wasn't impressed at all.
That's fine with me as the intention wasn't to put me down - solidstate was actually reasonably friendly in that post. Also both were able to then give me examples of what sounded better to them.
So are the axioms crap? Not to me my friend Best purchase I've made! So many hours of enjoyment I get from them. But I can see other speakers matching them in the price range.

[Deleted]

Sorry Garbulky but you still don't get it.  Is this an Axiom forum, no it is not.  If that post by SS had been at the Axiom forum then I think some members who owned Axiom speakers there would have some objection.  Understand this here is an Emotiva private dedicated forum. Go back to the beginning before the later exchanges.  Nathan made what I thought was an simple objection umbrella comment that covered all Emotiva speakers (maybe he excepted the Airmotiv's).  That is what was I objected to and why I posted in response.  All the rest of the exchange was just defensive talk and my answers back and forth.   

Check out the underlines parts.  Now do you get my complaint?  Nathan and others can post negative comments about other brands and I wouldn't be much concerned.  Big Dan says he doesn't want negative comments about other brands either.  I simply have become tired after five years of ownership of Emo speakers of constantly hearing the negative comments here at the Emotiva Lounge with no specific reasons given.  We have lots of folks come here from other forums that IMO are way too negative and some long time members that are likewise.  If you don't like Emotiva and Big Dan, then leave and quit the whining!  If it is Emo speakers you don't like then give a constructive reason and then let it go!
 
That's all folks!   The horse has now passed away.  RIP horsie. 

[Jim]

Feb 26, 2014 0:01:36 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

Feb 25, 2014 22:12:31 GMT -5 Jim said:

I have a box with a sub driver in it. If I put the Emotiva logo on it - will you buy it?

I'll even stick my 21" Mal-X driver in it so you can say that you have a big Emotiva sub.

Since you're such an expert.... Why wait on Emotiva to make a sub? You don't like their speakers... You'd probably not like their new sub(s). And expecting them to just churn out a sub because you're impatient - talk about a recipe for a mediocre product.

You're like the taco bell dog, always yapping......

You're right. I'll just leave the discussion to other people to argue with your..... "Logic" or whatever you think you're expressing.

Gimme more subs Emotiva... Or else I don't like you.

[geebo]

Feb 26, 2014 1:40:05 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

Chuckie I'm done debating with you since you don't understand what you are talking about. 105dB at the "seating position" means in the customers case, the speakers would have to produce a clean 119dB at 13.5 feet to achieve 105dB peaks at the seating position.... You loose 14dB from the distance to the seating position from the speaker.... You just looking at numbers and not the whole picture.

All xovers were at 80hz, thx standard. So yes the 8.3's did sound harsh and tinny at those levels, whether you accept that doesn't make any difference, that was my take on them and no matter how much you debate the subject how or why they sounded that way, I've got a pretty firm grasp on the whole thing and will continue to think what ever the heck I see fit. You don't agree? Oh well, I guess I'll have to live out the rest of my life with your doubt in my ability's.... I think I'm ok with that...

So with 4 ohm speakers that require 2.83 volts (2 watts) to produce 89db at 1 meter, how much is needed to get 119db? Something like 2,048 watts if I figure correctly. In stereo I guess more like 1,024 watts?

[Jim]

Here's a useful calculator:
myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

[pop]

They are great speakers ya'll.

Chuckie, I get where you are coming from but truth be told you purchased your speakers for far less than he did his and you probably would like yours more. WIN!

N8, they are fantastic speakers and in my less than perfect room, my system sounds better to us than the IMAX down the road. The new subs helped alot, but my 6.3s shine. Probably not in 1,000 sq. ft. There are better speakers, but putting them in a 1,000 sq. ft. room at "reference levels" really just isn't what they were made for.

Peace!

[pedrocols]

There is not a single perfect product out there (speakers,amps,etc.,,,) and I find arbitrary if you are not allow to express your opinion whether is negative or positive. I have read numerous posts here of members bluntly bashing other company products. There is a huge different between bashing and stating a negative OPINION. I've had owned four different Emotiva products and some I liked and some I did not. I don't find anything wrong with that. YMMV....