|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Feb 25, 2014 15:25:22 GMT -5
...PSA, Velodyne, JTR, SVS, etc aren't renown for the amplifiers that they use in their subs. A lot of their customers probably don't even know what type of amplifier is in their sub.... Or care. |
|
|
|
Post by digijam on Feb 25, 2014 17:38:39 GMT -5
There are a few ways in which Emotiva can innovate and get an appreciable piece of the market. The first would be value: Emo is well known for ofering great products at ridiculous prices. Every pro reviewer of Emo's products elaborates about the incredible value they represents. Second: Difference. Make the subs small and powerful and always achieving excellent output at 20Hz. Offer a choice of external sub amps while offering the same sub in a powered iteration with one specified amp. Third: Limit dsp in the sub exclusively for extending the output into the sub 20Hz region if needed, but not for signal correction. Leave that to Antimode, Behringer, etc. or the pre/pro. I certainly could use a sub like this  |
|
|
|
Post by yves on Feb 25, 2014 17:41:30 GMT -5
Do you mean Emotiva doesn't have the balls to create proprietary drivers that will be a crucial part in achieving state of the art performance? Do you mean the speaker cabinets of high end speaker products from respected brands these days are still being developed without the use of extremely complex computer simulation tech, just like they were in the bronze age? Not really, I think you are confusing engineering skill with marketing and selling the product. What I was suggesting was, that compared to many sub specialists, Emotiva's unique selling proposition is it's obvious advantage in amplifiers. Some would call it playing to your strengths from a marketing perspective. They may well be good at driver and enclosure designs, perhaps even great, but that's an argument yet to be won. Not the case with amplifiers, Emotiva are recognised, often begrudgingly, as top quality. Competing with and often outperforming amplifiers of many times their cost. Conversely PSA, Velodyne, JTR, SVS, etc aren't renown for the amplifiers that they use in their subs. A lot of their customers probably don't even know what type of amplifier is in their sub. By all means Emotiva can kick their asses in engineering enclosures and drivers, that will take time to be accepted. But in amplifiers Emotiva already has credibility and therefore no time is needed to sell that. On a personal note, I would also add that I'm a firm believer that the quality of a sub woofer amplifier is just as important as any other amplifier in a sound system. Particularly so for music. Us audio nut cases spend hours studying mono block amp specs, reading reviews, comparing one against another and yet often the biggest, most powerfull mono block in our system, the sub amp, is given no more than a cursory glance. Cheers Gary The only way to conquer a market segmentation in these difficult times is by word-of-mouth combined with beautiful pictures IMHO.  |
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Feb 25, 2014 18:09:30 GMT -5
...PSA, Velodyne, JTR, SVS, etc aren't renown for the amplifiers that they use in their subs. A lot of their customers probably don't even know what type of amplifier is in their sub.... Or care. So there is a marketing advantage just waiting for someone to get them to care. "Now your subwoofer can have the same quality of amplification as your stereo speakers." "You have high quality Emotive power amps driving your stereo speakers, now you can have a subwoofer also driven by a high quality Emotiva power amp". Cheers Gary |
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Feb 25, 2014 18:19:53 GMT -5
The only way to conquer a market segmentation in these difficult times is by word-of-mouth combined with beautiful pictures IMHO. Lonnie Vaughn staring in an Andrew Robinson directed and produced masterpiece should do the trick.  It worked on me with the ERC-3.  Cheers Gary |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 18:23:37 GMT -5
1. Chuckie, quit being such a drama queen, It's fine that you like your emo speakers, it's makes no difference that I don't think they are anything special. It's not that they sound bad, they just don't sound better than all the other mass market stuff IMO, it's fine if you don't think that way... so get over yourself.
2. Could Emotiva build a sub that would rival JTR, SVS velo etc? Sure they "could" but they're not going to, it's not their niche in terms of price or size. Can anyone see Emotiva selling 180lbs, 13 CF subs at 3K each? I sure can't, it's not going to happen, You can bet anything they come out with will be under 1k which is where it need to be because that what their customers expect. Thats not to say whatever they design will be crappy or anything, it's just not going to stand out vs the other I'd bet but I could be wrong, only time will tell.
3. As far as Gary talking about amps and who uses what, I can't speak for velodyne but SVS uses their own bash amps and JTR uses speakerpower plate amps, the best plate amps on the market and I'd bet most JTR customers know what they are buying, they are not the same customers as who buys emotiva speakers, they are HT geared and Emotiva is not. As good as JTR subs are, I personally still wouldn't buy one, as I can build one myself for less money that performs better, no mass market or internet direct sub can compete with a DIY sub for price or performance for the money. DIY is not for everyone but designing a good sub is not hard, despite people thinking it's some magical design process, it's not I'm sorry to say.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 18:57:25 GMT -5
Sorry Nathan to pick on your post, but I finally got tired of folks (many more than just you) here saying in so many words how mediocre the Emo speakers are. I doubt 100% that you have heard a set of Emo speakers properly set up and matched with a sub. I don't think they might have been set up to their best advantage in any demo situations you attended or heard at a friends. I think if you were in my room and could hear them you'd quickly change your opinion.
The real problem I see is that this is a dedicated Emotiva forum and what is the purpose or reason to come here (we are all guests of Emotiva) and make blank and empty negative comments about their speakers.? I certainly wouldn't do that at the Polk forum about Polk speakers but might give a constructively negative but polite opinion on Polk speakers at a general forum like AVS if I thought they were mediocre. I would hopefully back that up with some facts or specifics or feedback from a review with measurements.
To say that the Emo speakers are nothing to right home about is simply name calling, uncalled for and rather on the rude side. You can criticize my Oppo unit or Panny plasma here but please not my Emo speakers at the Emotiva Lounge without some very specific constructive comments. It's a matter of common courtesy.
|
|
traider79
Sensei
Getting used to new look
Posts: 434
|
Post by traider79 on Feb 25, 2014 19:12:34 GMT -5
I was awaiting them also but I decided to get some of the Dayton UM-18. They were pushed back too. I am going with 4 of them. Not sure if I will use all of them or not. but what the heck!
I love all my Emo Speakers.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 19:37:37 GMT -5
I can say whatever the heck I want about emo speakers. I love emo amps and sources but I don't think their speakers are that great, what, I have to love every single thing they make? Give your head a shake Chuckie, I never said they were garbage, I just personally don't think they are any better than anything else I've heard in their price range ie, they are nothing special, as in they are not better than others that they are competing with....
How am I going to give you facts on personal opinion?
My personal opinion is based on the "fact" I personally setup the Emo system I heard. 3 x 8.3's and 4 x ERD-1 (2 X-ref 12's although the main theater had 2 DIY 18's that I personally built for that customer) I did a audyssey pro install, in which I've done over 80 to this day, starting about 5 years ago.
His theater sounded fine, they were not a great choice for a theater of his size (1000 SF) The speakers were harsh and tinny at reference, even the customer though so, at normal listening levels (80-90dB) they sounded fine, I never though "OMG these are amazing!" at any point but it's not as if they sounded bad. Regular speakers don't generally do very well in HT applications at high volume level and to those that have no heard a HE design, you're missing out.
If this forum was all rainbows and puppydog tails and never a negative thing was said, it would be the only place on the entire internet that was that way. You have to take the good with the bad, if Emotive is really that unhappy with me for saying I don't think their speakers are special? They can ban my account as they see fit.
|
|
|
|
Post by Topend on Feb 25, 2014 19:44:32 GMT -5
What is a HE design?
Thanks,
Dave.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 19:55:49 GMT -5
High Efficiency, like whats used in big theaters (They may not be for everyone). JBL pro, JTR, Seaton Sound etc. Something that can breeze through high volume with no distortion. I went from a pair of Paradigm Sig 8's in my room to a pair of JTR Triple 12's and the difference was pretty clear at higher volumes. I LOVED my Sig 8's but they just were not a great HT speaker IMO, they would compress at higher volume and become very harsh. The JTR's I have now can play as loud as I can handle and be crystal clear. They are usually big and ugly though, a drawback I'm happily willing to accept.
I've not seen anyone get a HE design to go back to a traditional speaker in a HT environment. Just like really loud is not what most traditional speakers are designed for either.
|
|
|
|
Post by yves on Feb 25, 2014 20:22:54 GMT -5
What is a HE design? Thanks, Dave. High Expectations  |
|
|
|
Post by Topend on Feb 25, 2014 21:25:22 GMT -5
Thanks, I never would have worked it out for myself.
As I don't go too loud, movies at 85db, then it is probably something I will never experience.
Cheers,
Dave.
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,101
|
Post by klinemj on Feb 25, 2014 21:30:16 GMT -5
N8dogg...please take this as a serious question and not anything else. But...I really want to know...you have so many subs and from your recent picture - they appear put together as a giant stack right behind where you sit. I mean...you couldn't be closer unless you sat on them.
So...I have to ask...first, do you really want another? Second, how can you tell the sound of any new one when added to the pile you have? And third...how can you possibly balance all those vs the rest of your system?
Mark
|
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Feb 25, 2014 22:12:31 GMT -5
I have a box with a sub driver in it. If I put the Emotiva logo on it - will you buy it?
I'll even stick my 21" Mal-X driver in it so you can say that you have a big Emotiva sub.
Since you're such an expert.... Why wait on Emotiva to make a sub? You don't like their speakers... You'd probably not like their new sub(s). And expecting them to just churn out a sub because you're impatient - talk about a recipe for a mediocre product.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Feb 25, 2014 22:22:29 GMT -5
So...I have to ask...first, do you really want another? Second, how can you tell the sound of any new one when added to the pile you have? And third...how can you possibly balance all those vs the rest of your system? Mark You mean, I can get better sound than my pile of speakers? Neat!  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 23:47:48 GMT -5
I can say whatever the heck I want about emo speakers. I love emo amps and sources but I don't think their speakers are that great, what, I have to love every single thing they make? Give your head a shake Chuckie, I never said they were garbage, I just personally don't think they are any better than anything else I've heard in their price range ie, they are nothing special, as in they are not better than others that they are competing with.... How am I going to give you facts on personal opinion? My personal opinion is based on the "fact" I personally setup the Emo system I heard. 3 x 8.3's and 4 x ERD-1 (2 X-ref 12's although the main theater had 2 DIY 18's that I personally built for that customer) I did a audyssey pro install, in which I've done over 80 to this day, starting about 5 years ago. His theater sounded fine, they were not a great choice for a theater of his size (1000 SF) The speakers were harsh and tinny at reference, even the customer though so, at normal listening levels (80-90dB) they sounded fine, I never though "OMG these are amazing!" at any point but it's not as if they sounded bad. Regular speakers don't generally do very well in HT applications at high volume level and to those that have no heard a HE design, you're missing out. If this forum was all rainbows and puppydog tails and never a negative thing was said, it would be the only place on the entire internet that was that way. You have to take the good with the bad, if Emotive is really that unhappy with me for saying I don't think their speakers are special? They can ban my account as they see fit. Harsh and tinny? What were you driving them with, an AVR? Maybe you should come over to my place and see how a system is correctly set up. No audyssey here, thank you. If you heard harsh and tinny you must have had Ntrain42 helping you. BTW here is what the last guy who dissed my speakers looks like:  This one was taken just before I turned my chicken on him:  Is this one of the over 80 systems you set up using an Audyssey pro install?  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 23:53:10 GMT -5
N8dogg...please take this as a serious question and not anything else. But...I really want to know...you have so many subs and from your recent picture - they appear put together as a giant stack right behind where you sit. I mean...you couldn't be closer unless you sat on them. So...I have to ask...first, do you really want another? Second, how can you tell the sound of any new one when added to the pile you have? And third...how can you possibly balance all those vs the rest of your system? Mark Are you saying that Nathan has piles? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 23:59:29 GMT -5
N8dogg...please take this as a serious question and not anything else. But...I really want to know...you have so many subs and from your recent picture - they appear put together as a giant stack right behind where you sit. I mean...you couldn't be closer unless you sat on them. So...I have to ask...first, do you really want another? Second, how can you tell the sound of any new one when added to the pile you have? And third...how can you possibly balance all those vs the rest of your system? Mark The horns on the bottom are running about 70%, with the directivity of the horn mouth on the sofa and them being in the middle of the room, they pretty much act like transducers, take any sub and put in a non boundary area, you'll see what I mean, it's not the same as having them stuffed in the corner, you loose a ton of spl BUT the transducer effect is awesome. The 21's only run at about 25% ( and not all of them are on at any given time, depending on what I'm watching, the JTR's are so powerful, they can, believe it or not, overpower the subs at high levels. I watch at reference or +3 to +5 dB above, if you know hat kind of power you need to watch at reference and be flat to 8hz AND be in the middle of a room with little to no room gain, it's not as an insane approach as it looks. PLUS, I ma actually trying to make a wall. it's all calibrated flat to 8hz, the only time you really notice the subs being behind you is when they are run hot, it does happen from time to time but it is what it is, I don't have a dedicated room so I make do with what I have. It's enjoyable to me and thats all that matters. I have 0% distortion at any give volume level thats any person can stand, the JTR's reach reference with about 45 watts of power each..... I'm also stockpiling drivers to be put into my new house and figure, why not just use everything lol. I've got 6 x 30A dedicated lines for amps and 4 x 20A lines for the class D stuff I don't use audyssey pro on my system, I do it manually with 5 minidsp Opendrac-AN's. Audyssey kind of makes a mess out of the HE designs in general. I've had around 100 auditions or so since having my own system with the DIY subs, 4 just this past week, a bunch from AVS, HT shack, a few from EMO as well as the DIY forums and local get togethers. Is the sound perfect? Oh hell no but it's pretty damn good, I've not had any complaints and even If I did, it would be fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion, except for Jim...... Everyone always has a great time and we get a giggle out of the bass when I crank it up for fun. It's enjoyment of the hobby and I could give to rats asses what anyone else thinks about it, like it or hate it, thats the way she goes.. As far as adding another Emo subs? I wouldn't but I know lots of people that do and have been waiting for a long time that I talk about this with quite often. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2014 0:01:36 GMT -5
I have a box with a sub driver in it. If I put the Emotiva logo on it - will you buy it? I'll even stick my 21" Mal-X driver in it so you can say that you have a big Emotiva sub. Since you're such an expert.... Why wait on Emotiva to make a sub? You don't like their speakers... You'd probably not like their new sub(s). And expecting them to just churn out a sub because you're impatient - talk about a recipe for a mediocre product. You're like the taco bell dog, always yapping...... |
|
