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Post by audiosyndrome on Mar 3, 2016 19:18:24 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you there. The XMC-1 is indeed modular - and upgradable. The XMC-1 - as sold - is HDMI 1.4a. We are currently manufacturing the new boards that will allow users to upgrade to a single HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 input on their XMC-1. And we will be offering a four-port HDMI 2.0 (or HDMI 2.0a) board somewhere around the end of the year. (And, when HDMI 3.0 comes out, if it makes sense, we may offer a board upgrade for that.) Compare this to almost all other HDMI 1.4a pre/pros on the market, at any price; only very few of them can be upgraded to HDMI 2.0. (And at rather high cost. Some TVs can be "upgraded" using firmware alone, but those are all really recent models that already had the hardware, and were just waiting for standard-compliant firmware to go with it.) However, noting is absolute. I COULD upgrade my Nissan versa to a Mercedes (buy a Mercedes chassis, engine, and interior, put them together, then transfer the Nissan logo onto it). However, it wouldn't make sense - it would cost $5 more than simply replacing my Nissan with a Mercedes. Likewise, I suppose you COULD replace the audio boards and the processors in the XMC-1 (and you could replace the power supply if necessary as well). However, doing so would cost more than building a whole new unit.. In the case of Atmos and DTS-X, we could in fact upgrade the XMC-1's processor board to handle either, but we are limited by the rear panel connections. And, to be honest, up until a few months ago, both recommended at least 9.2 channels - and it seemed like the 7.2 channels the XMC-1 has connections for would be "less than optimal". (And, do you really want to pay a significant amount of money to upgrade to a "less than optimal" implementation.) Now, "suddenly", some folks seem to be claiming that Atmos and DTS-X "make sense" with even 5.1 channels..... Honestly, we're not so sure..... To put it simply - when we say "modular and upgradable", we consider "when it makes sense" to be assumed... So perhaps you could read my post just above yours and answer the question I proposed? You sort of hint to an answer in your post. That the only real thing the XMC-1 can upgrade is the HDMI segment. And you could upgrade it to handle Atmos/DTS:X/Auro, but are not sure that makes sense due to the rear panel limitations. So I'll ask it again in a bit different way. What warrants the tag line "Ultimate Flexibility and Convenience - Forget planned obsolescence. The XMC-1 is completely modular and upgradable to meet future standards. All main system components can be upgraded as needed, while our custom Linux software assures expandability for years to come." in the sales pitch? Dead horse!!! |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Mar 3, 2016 19:20:50 GMT -5
The XMC-1 itself is made up of several modules... including.... The HDMI switching board The audio I/O boards The processor and decoder boards The power supply The front panel processor board And the cabinet (which itself is in several pieces). Any or all of these CAN be replaced. So, yes, we could in fact replace the rear panel, the audio I/O boards, and the decoder board, and end up with an XMC-1 that could decode a dozen channels of Atmos. However, since redesigning and replacing all those boards would end up costing somewhat more than an entire new processor, we didn't really think anyone would be interested in buying it. In fact, we could take all those parts, put them in a new chassis, charge you $5k for it, and let you keep your current serial number... and call it "an upgrade". But we figured it would be easier to just call it an XMR instead. So, if you can find a few hundred people who would really be willing to pay $5k for an Atmos upgrade for their XMC-1, then we'd probably be willing to talk about it. (Since we know at least one company who charges half that much for a simple HDMI board upgrade, I suppose it wouldn't even be out of line..... ) So perhaps you could read my post just above yours and answer the question I proposed? You sort of hint to an answer in your post. That the only real thing the XMC-1 can upgrade is the HDMI segment. And you could upgrade it to handle Atmos/DTS:X/Auro, but are not sure that makes sense due to the rear panel limitations. So I'll ask it again in a bit different way. What warrants the tag line "Ultimate Flexibility and Convenience - Forget planned obsolescence. The XMC-1 is completely modular and upgradable to meet future standards. All main system components can be upgraded as needed, while our custom Linux software assures expandability for years to come." in the sales pitch? Again, dead horse. |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Mar 3, 2016 19:31:01 GMT -5
In case many of you are missing it the biggest complainer in this thread is Bonzo who DOES NOT EVEN OWN AN XMC-1. So I would suggest that he actually buy an XMC, or leave this thread and participate in a Denon AVR Forum.
Russ
PS- this is toned way down from my actual thinking.
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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 3, 2016 19:42:11 GMT -5
In case many of you are missing it the biggest complainer in this thread is Bonzo who DOES NOT EVEN OWN AN XMC-1. So I would suggest that he actually buy an XMC, or leave this thread and participate in a Denon AVR Forum. Russ PS- this is toned way down from my actual thinking. So you would close all threads to owners only? |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Mar 3, 2016 19:53:36 GMT -5
No. Just this one instance.
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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 3, 2016 19:56:49 GMT -5
No. Just this one instance. Ahhh, so only if you don't like someone else's point of view? |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Mar 3, 2016 20:06:14 GMT -5
Only when they go on and on and on ad nausem.
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Post by Bonzo on Mar 3, 2016 20:16:46 GMT -5
But hey - looks like our forum is getting discipline - the banter is staying on topic. How does Keith and Bonzo find time... and pretty fair point counter-point discussion. I would like to think that's exactly what we are doing here. That's certainly my intent. I very much respect Keith's points of views, and especially his knowledge of many things I'm not an expert in. That's not to say we have to agree on everything, 100%, all the time. But we do have common ground. We are both Dead Heads after all!!!!  Thanks for noticing and saying it out loud by the way.  |
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Post by Bonzo on Mar 3, 2016 20:31:22 GMT -5
who DOES NOT EVEN OWN AN XMC-1. I don't think I've ever said anything to make anyone think otherwise. On the contrary, over the past few years I've stated many times the many reasons why I haven't taken the plunge. Some of those reasons are the XMC-1. Some of those reasons have to do with personal things that I have mentioned out loud. And others are reasons no one here is privy to. Perhaps I'll take the plunge some day, perhaps not. Only time will tell. So unlike supermac, you think all I'm doing is complaining. And you don't think anything I've said has provided any useful or interesting or thoughtful conversation. You don't think any of my suggestions might help Emotiva or any other potential customers? Okay, I'm cool with that. We are all entitled to our own opinion. No one believes that more than me. Might I suggest that since you obviously have very little to contribute to this particular conversation, you leave this thread and move elsewhere. Until you came along we were all having a decent adult conversation. The illness is on you sir.  Sorry I have you so upset. Again perhaps it's time you left for a bit. If you hate me that much, might I suggest you adding me to your block poster list.  |
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Post by supermac on Mar 3, 2016 21:08:53 GMT -5
I think because Bonzo isn't an owner is the very reason why I would understand his questioning; I also understand why current owners - who, the vast majority it seems are quite happy, may look at his narrative as complaining. Dead horse - perhaps but not surprising in a discussion between a customer and company -- marketing or "sales pitches" inherently take a liberal, high drama, catchy tone and IMHO, Keith's explanation in validating it, is the most conservative aspect of the "modular, upgradable pitch". That shouldn't be unexpected; it also shouldn't be unexpected that a "potential" customer would be skeptical about the advertisement claims. We can appreciate Emo's view not to market the XMC as hdmi 2.0, when it's only "sort of" 2.0. I can also appreciate Bonzo trying to understand the product as a potential owner.
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Post by supermac on Mar 3, 2016 21:35:19 GMT -5
Only when they go on and on and on ad nausem. The conversation could have concluded awhile ago if Keith said, yeah, well we wanted to market the XMC and drive it home that it's upgradable and will stand the test of time in an industry that - strange as it is - is ever changing but really doesn't move very fast. We really wanted to make the point that this is our new direction even though, most likely, many upgrades - while may be technically feasible will not make sense - but hey we engineered the unit as a foundation for future products. R and D after all is an iterative process. This is the start of our modular business model and one that could distinguish us from others. Heck, he could even say, if there's an eccentric 1%'er out there that would like us to build you that special feature into the XMC, we would gladly take your money to build it. After that I couldn't say anything else but, dang, ok. |
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LCSeminole
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Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Mar 3, 2016 22:00:31 GMT -5
So why make it upgradable when you are saying it's cheaper to buy a whole new unit. Because XMC-1 owners, such as myself, who don't require or even want Dolby Atmos/DTS:X, do want an HDCP 2.2/HDMI 2.0 compliant board so that in the near future I can use future HDCP 2.2/HDMI 2.0 sources with a HDCP 2.2/HDMI 2.0 compliant flat panel display. Who knows, maybe in the future they'll have updates for Dirac, so these are legit reasons for making it upgradable. |
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Post by ÈlTwo on Mar 4, 2016 0:27:59 GMT -5
It seems the XMC-1 is very upgradeable, even to Atmos beyond 5.2.2.
But it would probably be a bad business decision to offer the upgrades at what the cost would be.
So, if Keith comes on here and tells us the estimated cost of upgrading the XMC-1 to include Atmos 7.2.2 would be $1,500 who would go for it?
Considering there would, in all likelihood, be very few people wanting to plunk down that kind of $$$ for an upgrade, the cost would even be higher.
Thus, the unit is capable of being upgraded.
Will it be obsolete soon, and the claim be inaccurate? Maybe, but we won't know until everything shakes out in the next few years. By then there may be a cheaper way to upgrade to 5.2.2 and it will be considered acceptable by most.
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 4, 2016 1:26:15 GMT -5
My thoughts on an XMC-1 upgrade path, not in any particular order;
HDMI 2.0
HDMI 2.1 etc
4K 60 FPS
4K 120 FPS
5K 60 FPS
HDCP 2.2
HDCP 2.3 etc
HEVC/H.265 etc
WiFi/Bluetooth control/remote
DAC upgrade to 36/384K
DIRAC updates
Digital Radio
Personally I'd place almost all of the above way before Atmos, DTS-X or Auro compatibility.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by doc1963 on Mar 4, 2016 2:58:33 GMT -5
This is what "I" get out of the official product statement... "Forget planned obsolescence. The XMC-1 is completely modular and upgradable to meet future standards. All main system components can be upgraded as needed, while our custom Linux software assures expandability for years to come"So, what I have always understood is that the XMC-1 can be " upgraded as needed to meet future standards". Can we really say this isn't happening...  4K has not become the "standard", but has started to mature and, yet, there are already two fully compliant HDMI upgrade boards in the works... Check. Neither Atmos, dtsX or AURO-3D are remotely close to becoming "standards", but Keith has elaborated that at least Atmos is being "reconsidered" with the caveat that it will be within the confines of a 7.2 channel configuration... Check. I obviously understand that, for some, the wheels at Emotiva will never turn fast enough and, for you, those "planned obsolescence" boxes Emotiva refers to might very well be a better solution. But for most of us, the XMC-1 will remain relevant in our systems for some time to come. For me, personally, I won't purchase a 4K display until my plasma dies or until a fully compliant 65" OLED display falls below $4K. Whichever comes first. By that time, the dust will have settled around UHD Blu-ray and there will be an abundance of source material. I should also hope, by then, that a standard for HDR will have emerged (HDR10 or Dolby Vision). By the time all of this comes to pass, Emotiva will have long had a selection of fully compatible HDMI upgrades available. As for "immersive surround sound" (Atmos, dtsX or AURO-3D), I couldn't care less. I only say this because adding more speakers in the "proper" locations will never happen for me. Ceiling mounted speakers are out of the question. Luckily, my room is small enough where 7.2 is fully enveloping and is all I'll ever need. If I'm being completely honest, 5.1 was good enough. Kudos to those who have the room for Atmos "done right", but I'm not currently one of you. I do, however, hope Atmos makes it way to the XMC-1, but I won't be needing it. Just my 2 cents... |
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