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Post by geebo on Jul 12, 2016 19:20:09 GMT -5
A couple of things you might try. If your speakers are not toed then try angling them in a bit towards the listening spot. And try moving the right side curtain for the sub down to about 100Hz. You don't need to have Dirac trying to EQ them out to 1.5kHz. A total waste of energy trying to bring the sub levels up at those frequencies. And a little boost with the subwoofers' volume control might help. Also try bringing the left curtains of the surrounds and center up to about 45Hz. If you saved your last run you can just reload it and create new filters after changing the curtain positions.
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Post by dkaudio on Jul 13, 2016 7:58:31 GMT -5
Thank you, none of that explains why the sub level affects my speaker volume and why I can put the volume all the way up and it not be all that loud, right?
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Post by geebo on Jul 13, 2016 8:27:43 GMT -5
Thank you, none of that explains why the sub level affects my speaker volume and why I can put the volume all the way up and it not be all that loud, right? Because if Dirac is boosting the signal to try to get the response up to where the target is it may trigger the XMC's clipping protection. You can see Dirac is boosting the sub signal by 10dB in some areas. The XMC knows all the boosts being applied and if those boosts along with a certain volume setting are high enough to clip the signal the XMC will stop raising the volume beyond the clipping point. If you reach that point at -1 on the dial, you will be able to go higher with the control but the volume will not change. Then trying to further boost things with tone controls or levels exacerbates the condition. I'm thinking some clipping protection might be taking place and causing odd behavior. I would try those things I mentioned and I would also do a factory reset beforehand. |
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Post by flak on Jul 13, 2016 8:39:08 GMT -5
Thank you, none of that explains why the sub level affects my speaker volume and why I can put the volume all the way up and it not be all that loud, right? Hi, unfortunately I personally have no knowledge/hands on experience with the XMC-1 and I'm not sure that I understood your problem exactly but it may help knowing that in general increasing or decreasing the volume of the subwoofer before correction won't change the result 'cause Dirac Live will compensate for that (i.e. by attenuating if the sub volume is increased) Dirac Live does not (nor needs to) calibrate to any specific SPL reference, levels are calibrated as relative to the one that plays softer... one can then adjust the overall volume after calibration as desired. In other words if one wants to increase the volume of the sub (relative to the other channels) he has to modify the target.... or in a less accurate way separately increase the sub volume after the calibration. May be the above can help? Flavio |
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Post by geebo on Jul 13, 2016 9:04:42 GMT -5
Thank you, none of that explains why the sub level affects my speaker volume and why I can put the volume all the way up and it not be all that loud, right? Hi, unfortunately I personally have no knowledge/hands on experience with the XMC-1 and I'm not sure that I understood your problem exactly but it may help knowing that in general increasing or decreasing the volume of the subwoofer before correction won't change the result 'cause Dirac Live will compensate for that (i.e. by attenuating if the sub volume is increased) Dirac Live does not (nor needs to) calibrate to any specific SPL reference, levels are calibrated as relative to the one that plays softer... one can then adjust the overall volume after calibration as desired. In other words if one wants to increase the volume of the sub (relative to the other channels) he has to modify the target.... or in a less accurate way separately increase the sub volume after the calibration. May be the above can help? Flavio Are you saying that Dirac will not apply any boosts? Only cuts? I thought Dirac would apply up to a 10dB boost max. |
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Post by dkaudio on Jul 13, 2016 9:37:03 GMT -5
.... or in a less accurate way separately increase the sub volume after the calibration. Isn't changing the trim level on the sub output essentially doing this? In my mind changing the sub pre out voltage on the XMC should not change the other channels preouts, I just can't comprehend why this happens. Thanks for the discussion, learning a lot. Because if Dirac is boosting the signal to try to get the response up to where the target is it may trigger the XMC's clipping protection. You can see Dirac is boosting the sub signal by 10dB in some areas. The XMC knows all the boosts being applied and if those boosts along with a certain volume setting are high enough to clip the signal the XMC will stop raising the volume beyond the clipping point. If you reach that point at -1 on the dial, you will be able to go higher with the control but the volume will not change. Then trying to further boost things with tone controls or levels exacerbates the condition. I'm thinking some clipping protection might be taking place and causing odd behavior. I would try those things I mentioned and I would also do a factory reset beforehand. Thanks, the clipping protection makes sense but again, while loud, it wasn't crazy loud or anything. When you say bring in the cutains, that is essentially the HPF or LPF in Dirac and then redownload the settings? I did save the last scan I did. |
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Post by geebo on Jul 13, 2016 9:45:09 GMT -5
.... or in a less accurate way separately increase the sub volume after the calibration. Isn't changing the trim level on the sub output essentially doing this? In my mind changing the sub pre out voltage on the XMC should not change the other channels preouts, I just can't comprehend why this happens. Thanks for the discussion, learning a lot. Because if Dirac is boosting the signal to try to get the response up to where the target is it may trigger the XMC's clipping protection. You can see Dirac is boosting the sub signal by 10dB in some areas. The XMC knows all the boosts being applied and if those boosts along with a certain volume setting are high enough to clip the signal the XMC will stop raising the volume beyond the clipping point. If you reach that point at -1 on the dial, you will be able to go higher with the control but the volume will not change. Then trying to further boost things with tone controls or levels exacerbates the condition. I'm thinking some clipping protection might be taking place and causing odd behavior. I would try those things I mentioned and I would also do a factory reset beforehand. Thanks, the clipping protection makes sense but again, while loud, it wasn't crazy loud or anything. When you say bring in the cutains, that is essentially the HPF or LPF in Dirac and then redownload the settings? I did save the last scan I did. Yes, I would move the curtains in and then simply recreate and redownload the filters. It's really simple if you have saved the settings. |
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Post by flak on Jul 13, 2016 9:53:11 GMT -5
Hi, unfortunately I personally have no knowledge/hands on experience with the XMC-1 and I'm not sure that I understood your problem exactly but it may help knowing that in general increasing or decreasing the volume of the subwoofer before correction won't change the result 'cause Dirac Live will compensate for that (i.e. by attenuating if the sub volume is increased) Dirac Live does not (nor needs to) calibrate to any specific SPL reference, levels are calibrated as relative to the one that plays softer... one can then adjust the overall volume after calibration as desired. In other words if one wants to increase the volume of the sub (relative to the other channels) he has to modify the target.... or in a less accurate way separately increase the sub volume after the calibration. May be the above can help? Flavio Are you saying that Dirac will not apply any boosts? Only cuts? I thought Dirac would apply up to a 10dB boost max. No, you're right in saying that Dirac Live may apply up to a 10 dB boost, what I'm saying is that if all speakers had a perfectly linear response at the MLP and a linear response was the target you will still find different volume among the channels....Dirac would align the louder sounding ones to the softer that is taken as a reference. Ciao, Flavio |
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Post by geebo on Jul 13, 2016 9:57:43 GMT -5
Are you saying that Dirac will not apply any boosts? Only cuts? I thought Dirac would apply up to a 10dB boost max. No, you're right in saying that Dirac Live may apply up to a 10 dB boost, what I'm saying is that if all speakers had a perfectly linear response at the MLP and a linear response was the target you will still find different volume among the channels....Dirac would align the louder sounding ones to the softer that is taken as a reference. Ciao, Flavio Thanks, I think I got it now. But it still might apply boosts to get a linear response in any given channel? |
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Post by flak on Jul 13, 2016 9:59:27 GMT -5
.... or in a less accurate way separately increase the sub volume after the calibration. Isn't changing the trim level on the sub output essentially doing this? In my mind changing the sub pre out voltage on the XMC should not change the other channels preouts, I just can't comprehend why this happens. Thanks for the discussion, learning a lot. Again I don' know about the trimmings available in the XMC-1 but increasing the output volume of the sub BEFORE Dirac calibration won't make any difference in output 'cause Dirac will attenuate with its filters in order to align it to the desired target... on the other hand increasing the sub output volume AFTER the Dirac calibration will obviously increase it 'cause the Dirac filter does'nt know that you changed it.  Flavio |
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Post by flak on Jul 13, 2016 10:05:22 GMT -5
No, you're right in saying that Dirac Live may apply up to a 10 dB boost, what I'm saying is that if all speakers had a perfectly linear response at the MLP and a linear response was the target you will still find different volume among the channels....Dirac would align the louder sounding ones to the softer that is taken as a reference. Ciao, Flavio Thanks, I think I got it now. But it still might apply boosts to get a linear response in any given channel? The meaning of applying boosts is a concept that in Dirac applies to the relative levels of different frequencies... in other words you can for example boost 1 KHz relative to 5 KHz, that's what the target curve is designed for. Flavio |
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Post by mickseymour on Jul 14, 2016 0:58:28 GMT -5
Ok, I just listened to some music, analog 2.0 in. It sounds good but still some off things... In direct it is way louder, sub trim level works fine, does not effect the other speakers. In Dirac at reference volume hitting the trim + level of the subs on the remote makes my speakers go down, hitting the - brings them back up! This happens from zero to the plus trim, not going negative. In other words, at reference volume if I go from 0 to -12 on the subs trim there is no change in my speakers volume but going positive effects my speakers. In Dirac with music I can put the volume all the way up (+12) and while loud, it is not crazy loud. What is the deal doing this in Dirac? This can't be right... Running through the Dirac preset, the XMC-1 will adjust the overall volume across all channels so that the unit doesn't clip. From your 'after' Dirac graph it looks like it has bumped up the 15k range internally by 10db so there may not be much spare volume at reference level to support pushing the subs further. Does the sub actually increase in volume on the trims or does it just appear to increase as the other channels are reduced? I guess you can test this by having all other channels amps turned off and operate the sub trim. |
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Post by dkaudio on Jul 14, 2016 8:09:13 GMT -5
Running through the Dirac preset, the XMC-1 will adjust the overall volume across all channels so that the unit doesn't clip. From your 'after' Dirac graph it looks like it has bumped up the 15k range internally by 10db so there may not be much spare volume at reference level to support pushing the subs further. Does the sub actually increase in volume on the trims or does it just appear to increase as the other channels are reduced? I guess you can test this by having all other channels amps turned off and operate the sub trim. Thanks, I would have to try that, it sounded like it increased to me but to do that the other speakers volume went down. I'll try bringing the curtains in like Geebo said as well. |
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Post by geebo on Jul 14, 2016 8:18:30 GMT -5
Running through the Dirac preset, the XMC-1 will adjust the overall volume across all channels so that the unit doesn't clip. From your 'after' Dirac graph it looks like it has bumped up the 15k range internally by 10db so there may not be much spare volume at reference level to support pushing the subs further. Does the sub actually increase in volume on the trims or does it just appear to increase as the other channels are reduced? I guess you can test this by having all other channels amps turned off and operate the sub trim. Thanks, I would have to try that, it sounded like it increased to me but to do that the other speakers volume went down. I'll try bringing the curtains in like Geebo said as well. Are you speakers toed in at all? If not, a little toe in might help with the upper frequency drop off. |
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Post by dkaudio on Jul 14, 2016 12:44:04 GMT -5
Are you speakers toed in at all? If not, a little toe in might help with the upper frequency drop off. They are not, here is a quick diagram of my living room. Fronts are pointed straight, probably 6' apart. I have two couches in the living room but used just the couch facing the TV for Dirac.  |
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Post by geebo on Jul 14, 2016 13:35:06 GMT -5
Are you speakers toed in at all? If not, a little toe in might help with the upper frequency drop off. They are not, here is a quick diagram of my living room. Fronts are pointed straight, probably 6' apart. I have two couches in the living room but used just the couch facing the TV for Dirac. A little toe might be beneficial. I like to adjust mine so that a line drawn perpendicular from the speakers will intersect about 5 feet behind me. |
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Post by dkaudio on Jul 16, 2016 8:12:32 GMT -5
I'm trying to bring the curtains in, can I not do this in the free version?
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Post by geebo on Jul 16, 2016 9:18:32 GMT -5
I'm trying to bring the curtains in, can I not do this in the free version? I just checked the manual and it appears you cannot adjust the curtains with the free version. I'm sorry but I thought it was only the target that couldn't be adjusted with LE. |
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Post by dkaudio on Jul 16, 2016 22:22:43 GMT -5
Wow, I'm not trying to be rude or mean at all but I'm extremely upset about this. What I'm left with is a very limited multi thousand dollar processor because the room correction is trying to correct where it's not needed? The only way to fix this is to spend more money?! My UMC had WAY more output and was WAY more impressive when trying to demo an action packed scene to friends/family. My subs aren't doing a whole lot unless I max my gain or put the XMC at +12 which lowers the output of all the other preouts. I wanted to buy the XMC since it was released but didn't have the funds, I waited years and am left feeling very let down. What's my option? Turn Dirac off or pay more money?
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Post by geebo on Jul 16, 2016 23:07:29 GMT -5
Wow, I'm not trying to be rude or mean at all but I'm extremely upset about this. What I'm left with is a very limited multi thousand dollar processor because the room correction is trying to correct where it's not needed? The only way to fix this is to spend more money?! My UMC had WAY more output and was WAY more impressive when trying to demo an action packed scene to friends/family. My subs aren't doing a whole lot unless I max my gain or put the XMC at +12 which lowers the output of all the other preouts. I wanted to buy the XMC since it was released but didn't have the funds, I waited years and am left feeling very let down. What's my option? Turn Dirac off or pay more money? I had the UMC before getting the XMC and can tell there is no comparison. I never had the issues you are having with the LE version and the stock mic and why you are I can't say. Another thing you could try is to use REW to create some XMC filters which could then be uploaded into the XMC's paremetric EQ in either of the other two speaker presets. That would also give you the opportunity to make final tweaks to the overall sound. |
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Flavio
