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Post by mshump on Nov 27, 2017 10:10:33 GMT -5
I would definitely suggest a call to Emotiva tech support to see if they can help you. Is it overly harsh with all sources? I hope you can figure this out, I have the XMC-1 with the XPA-3 and Maggies and the sound is wonderful, full bodied and smooth. Keep us posted here on the outcome please.
Mark
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Nov 27, 2017 12:05:24 GMT -5
Emotiva's processors are suspect and need to go away. The amps, dacs, and other things are what made Emotiva. ha, if that happened what in the world would folks talk about? ...or are you here for the music section?
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Post by Chris Davis on Nov 28, 2017 1:24:42 GMT -5
Thanks to all who are trying to help me out. I should mention that I don't have decades of experience in high end sound and like I've mentioned before, I've been slowly upgrading my components so that they can sound as best as they can. I really liked the Emotiva amps and decided after visiting the Emotiva booth at Axpona that upgrading my processors to the XMC1 was the final (and largest) missing piece to my upgrade. Emotiva promised that upgrading from an Onkyo would result in "a world of difference" compared to my Onkyo. Obviously the XMC1 has received many positive reviews, and when I heard it live at Axpona I had no reason to doubt the brand or the product. Likewise, I have always loved my Energy Veritas Towers and did very careful research before purchasing them a few years ago. The reviews for these towers were always very high and the reviews (nor my prior listening) ever indicated a harsh, bright or empty sound. With that said, my goal is to figure out what is going on and I appreciate your help. Sound is often subjective, but I can say without a doubt that the XMC is making these towers sound empty/bright/harsh and overall not as good as they should and I am hoping it's a configuration setting somewhere. I've attached a picture of one of the Dirac Full captures I did over a month ago. I hope this helps, but I must admit that I am new to Dirac. Someone asked to post a "full sweep" from the Onkyo. I am not sure how to do this, but if someone could point me int he right direction I would be glad to do that. Someone asked how much time I've spent with Emotiva support - I must admin that I've called about three times and every time the customer support has been very very nice, but it usually goes something like this - Emotiva: "Wow, that blows my mind that your Onkyo sounds better. I have no idea why it would sound the way you are describing.... I've never heard anything like this before...". and the conversation usually ends with them saying I can always return it. Someone asked me to check the Treble settings on the XMC. I checked this out and lowering it by -1db does seem to help, but the sound is still very empty and harsh sounding on songs that should appear warm. I constantly think to myself "I wish there was a 'warm' increase/decrease level I could set somewhere" Attachments:
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Post by superhelmi on Nov 28, 2017 6:42:14 GMT -5
Hello Chris,
that`s like I expected ! Do you have dirac live Full version ? My tip would be: Don`t use the auto target function. As starting point I would recommend to set the target curve close to the measurement. Be carefull with the hole at about 200Hz, as at my living room, it is not possible to fill it up. Also at about 20 Hz, here you have about 13 dB boost. After this you can go and adjust each region one after one. Your mesurement is quite close to mine and I think you will end up with a really good result !!
Greatings from Germany
markus
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Post by rhale64 on Nov 28, 2017 7:59:25 GMT -5
It almost looks to me like a crossover problem in one of your speakers. at 3000 hz there is that big dropoff on only one of your speakers. I have never seen that up at those higher frequencies without a problem.
And if Dirac is not on in the settings these speakers would sound exactly as described by op in this particular room. The presence region is definitely elevated which will give a very harsh sound.
Even though you ran Dirac if it is not your selected speaker preset then you will have a very harsh sound as you described. And if your mic is screwed up you can have this problem also.
But that starting curve is not good if you don't like a harsh sound.
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Post by rhale64 on Nov 28, 2017 14:15:02 GMT -5
I just re-read superhelmi's reply. Are other preDirac curves like this? Man without correction that must sound awful. All the mid-range would be so elevated I wouldn't be able to listen for more than a minute. And with that target your speakers will suffer mightily at those lower frequencies. Because Dirac will be adding lots of juice down their. This will cause bottoming out of drivers.
I would retry Dirac first. See if it shows the same the next time. I still don't understand what is going on at 3k in only one of your speakers. This seems very odd to me. That is close to your crossover frequency. Or maybe right at it. I will check that out now
Ok just checked. Crossover at 2.5 k I am suspecting a tweeter crossover malfunction of some sort. If you rerun Dirac and your results are the same that's what I would figure. But I may be wrong. Just seems very odd to see a drop like that with a spike after it right about the crossover frequency.
Keep us posted.
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Post by superhelmi on Nov 29, 2017 1:13:23 GMT -5
Hello,
perhaps we will see a problem at the crossover in the impulse response !? but I think, cause it`s only one speaker with this problem, you have to unlock left and right first. Then post us the impulse response of each speaker. I think we will see two differnet impulse responses.
Markus
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Post by Chris Davis on Nov 29, 2017 13:48:49 GMT -5
Hi all,
I purchased the miniDSP UMIK-1 in order to retest with a new mic. I want to rule out any issues with the mic. Is there an "enhanced" calibration file I should use with this mic? I do have Dirac Full. I will also look at the left front tower.
In either event, doesn't this only affect the Dirac preset, and not Preset 1 and Preset 2? Because all of the presets sound rather harsh. I guess I am trying to figure out why the "default" or stock outputs from the XMC1 sound so harsh as opposed to Onkyo.
Thanks!
Chris Davis
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Nov 29, 2017 14:00:53 GMT -5
Hi all, I purchased the miniDSP UMIK-1 in order to retest with a new mic. I want to rule out any issues with the mic. Is there an "enhanced" calibration file I should use with this mic? I do have Dirac Full. I will also look at the left front tower. In either event, doesn't this only affect the Dirac preset, and not Preset 1 and Preset 2? Because all of the presets sound rather harsh. I guess I am trying to figure out why the "default" or stock outputs from the XMC1 sound so harsh as opposed to Onkyo. Thanks! Chris Davis You can download the cal file from this page. All you need to do is enter the mic's serial number. www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1
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Post by Chris Davis on Nov 29, 2017 14:54:11 GMT -5
Hi all, I purchased the miniDSP UMIK-1 in order to retest with a new mic. I want to rule out any issues with the mic. Is there an "enhanced" calibration file I should use with this mic? I do have Dirac Full. I will also look at the left front tower. In either event, doesn't this only affect the Dirac preset, and not Preset 1 and Preset 2? Because all of the presets sound rather harsh. I guess I am trying to figure out why the "default" or stock outputs from the XMC1 sound so harsh as opposed to Onkyo. Thanks! Chris Davis You can download the cal file from this page. All you need to do is enter the mic's serial number. www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1Thanks! I know there is enhanced bass version on the forums somewhere - will that work for this MIC so that I can enhance the lower end of the sound?
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Nov 29, 2017 15:32:20 GMT -5
Thanks! I know there is enhanced bass version on the forums somewhere - will that work for this MIC so that I can enhance the lower end of the sound? Not sure if enhanced bass is an option with Dirac but if you set your fronts to Large and set subwoofer to On you will see the option if it's possible.
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Post by foggy1956 on Nov 29, 2017 17:17:45 GMT -5
Thanks! I know there is enhanced bass version on the forums somewhere - will that work for this MIC so that I can enhance the lower end of the sound? The calibration file is the only one for your mic. The enhanced bass version you reference are probably different house curve filter options you apply in dirac.
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Nov 29, 2017 17:41:52 GMT -5
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Post by rhale64 on Nov 29, 2017 17:52:01 GMT -5
With that curve apparently that was your left speaker if it is correct it will sound harsh. You have a rising mid-range with a drop off before and after it.
This in my opinion would sound extremely harsh with most preamps. If not with the Onkyo I am extremely surprised. With that curve in your room it should sound even more harsh on preset1,2
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Post by Chris Davis on Dec 4, 2017 17:20:56 GMT -5
Hi Everyone, Thanks for the suggestions / comments and feedback. Here is what I've done since last time: -Replaced the tweeter in the left tower. This is the tower that showed odd potential cross over issues. I have reason to believe the tweeter was failing. -I purchased the UMIK-1 USB microphone, downloaded the calibration file and ran Dirac Full. Attached is the new graph. Here are my observations: -Sound modes "Direct" and "Reference Stereo" are still way too bright / tiny / not full sounding. I might have made the mistake of motly listening only to these modes, since I figured these would provide the "truest" sound. -Sound mode "Stereo" sounds pretty good. Not "Oh my GOD GREAT!" (yet), but much better. I would describe the sound as much much warmer. The bass is noticeably still missing, but it does sound much "fuller" and not as harsh -I've observed that volume levels below -15db sound pretty great. For sure much better than Onkyo!! However, I've observed that if I increase the audio level north of -15db the sound starts to get noticeably brighter /harsher. Here are some questions I have: -Does my Dirac curve look more or less "normal" now? -Why does "Direct" and "Reference Stereo" sound so bright / harsh / empty? Onkyo has a similar "Direct" and "Phono" mode (which is supposed to bypass all processing) and the same songs from the same sources did not cause the sound to become "brighter", though it did usually mean the bass would drop off. -Is the best way to bring more bass back into Dirac to simply adjust the curve in the Dirac Full software up a few DB in the 0-100hz range? -Does anyone have a good explanation about the volume above -15db bringing sounding brighter / harsher than lower levels? Is this a characteristic of the Emotiva Amp? Attachments:
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Post by rhale64 on Dec 4, 2017 18:03:45 GMT -5
Ok on the stereo mode. That is what you want to take care of that curve you have. For Dirac to be used you have to use the stereo mode for two channel. Otherwise it is being bypassed. For multichannel you use the surround mode for Dirac to be in play.
And yes with that curve in your room without Dirac it will be harsh. The highs now will be to much.
And yes it seems you have fixed your left speaker. I knew something was up with that curve.
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Post by foggy1956 on Dec 4, 2017 20:15:03 GMT -5
Hi Everyone, Thanks for the suggestions / comments and feedback. Here is what I've done since last time: -Replaced the tweeter in the left tower. This is the tower that showed odd potential cross over issues. I have reason to believe the tweeter was failing. -I purchased the UMIK-1 USB microphone, downloaded the calibration file and ran Dirac Full. Attached is the new graph. Here are my observations: -Sound modes "Direct" and "Reference Stereo" are still way too bright / tiny / not full sounding. I might have made the mistake of motly listening only to these modes, since I figured these would provide the "truest" sound. -Sound mode "Stereo" sounds pretty good. Not "Oh my GOD GREAT!" (yet), but much better. I would describe the sound as much much warmer. The bass is noticeably still missing, but it does sound much "fuller" and not as harsh -I've observed that volume levels below -15db sound pretty great. For sure much better than Onkyo!! However, I've observed that if I increase the audio level north of -15db the sound starts to get noticeably brighter /harsher. Here are some questions I have: -Does my Dirac curve look more or less "normal" now? -Why does "Direct" and "Reference Stereo" sound so bright / harsh / empty? Onkyo has a similar "Direct" and "Phono" mode (which is supposed to bypass all processing) and the same songs from the same sources did not cause the sound to become "brighter", though it did usually mean the bass would drop off. -Is the best way to bring more bass back into Dirac to simply adjust the curve in the Dirac Full software up a few DB in the 0-100hz range? -Does anyone have a good explanation about the volume above -15db bringing sounding brighter / harsher than lower levels? Is this a characteristic of the Emotiva Amp? Did you load the filters into the xmc-1? I found adding a 6db shelf from 20-90hz did the trick in my room.
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Post by superhelmi on Dec 5, 2017 8:31:19 GMT -5
Hello,
you only changed the tweeter of the left loudspeaker. There is a big difference between the two measurements... Is it only depending to the two differnt microphones or did you changed anything other ?
Markus
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Post by Chris Davis on Dec 5, 2017 11:55:42 GMT -5
Hello, you only changed the tweeter of the left loudspeaker. There is a big difference between the two measurements... Is it only depending to the two differnt microphones or did you changed anything other ? Markus The only changes were the tweeter in the left speaker and I am using the MiniDSP UMIK-1 microphone instead of the included Emotiva microphone. Amps, wires, speaker positions, room placements and everything else is exactly the same.
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 5, 2017 13:12:40 GMT -5
I do understand the OP has system issues that are a challenge to getting the desired sound quality, but I’m tired 💤 of seeing this thread title still popping up saying The XMC sounds “bright and unnatural”. Time to close this one and if needed, start a system help needed thread, or something.....that addresses the problem that lays no blame to the processor.
Bill
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