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Post by wreckingball on Aug 25, 2016 23:22:24 GMT -5
Sorry they didn't work out! What kind of setup do you have? (Amps, dacs, preamps?) You read my whole post brutha? Anyway, I have a buyer for the T1s if I decide not to keep them. |
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Post by rbk123 on Aug 25, 2016 23:41:44 GMT -5
They are really more of a mid-tower, plus there is stiff competition at that price range. Tekton has 2 models alone in that range.
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Post by teaman on Aug 26, 2016 0:02:35 GMT -5
I haven't heard any of the Emotiva speakers but I personally think any speaker improves with the addition of a sub. Not that a full range tower should need a sub but for the lower bass punch I think most will benefit.
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Post by garbulky on Aug 26, 2016 0:02:50 GMT -5
Sorry they didn't work out! What kind of setup do you have? (Amps, dacs, preamps?) You read my whole post brutha? Anyway, I have a buyer for the T1s if I decide not to keep them. Arrgh! I did. Don't know how I missed the bit about the UMC-200 and UPA-500. That's an adequate front end to give you an idea about these speakers. Did you try moving them around seeing if a different position works for you? I've had speakers that surprisingly sounded crap in the position most speakers sound best. Having said that, it looks like your speakers were already good. I hear ya about the low treble. I wonder if that's the same thing or what that I experienced. It sounds different to me. So...stupid question....did you have room control turned off or if it was turned on...did you re-run emo-q room correction calibration? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 1:55:51 GMT -5
I have the XRT 5.2's, and their base "punch" is sad, but the mid-bass accuracy is good. They clearly needed a sub and have worked much better once integrated. The T1's may be similar in your situation. Thanks for this... just solidifies my opinion.. And this goes back to my position on the T1s.. why should one need a sub to augment a FULL TOWER? Doesn't make sense to me.. Huh? ..lolz... Like you say though... my opinion might change ..I doubt it though...hahahahh Night folks..  I have several questions for my curiosity. ..... Did you use the Emo-Q in the UMC-1 to set up the T1's or did you set it manually at flat or perhaps set it using a spl meter like a Radio Shack and FR CD? I only ask this since I know many times the auto EQ's don't set the speakers correctly? ..... You seem to consider the T1's as a full tower. I presume you mean "full range" tower, The term full range can vary depending on one's subjective definition. Just because the speaker is in a tower design does not necessarily mean full range. Tower only means the enclosure is designed to be placed on the floor versus a bookshelf. Some towers are small/short and fairly low weight. They might go down to 50Hz or so at -3dB's. A much taller floor standing speaker might be much heavier, considerably more expensive and go down to 35-40Hz range at -3dB's (or slightly lower). Different folks might consider 30Hz, 35Hz, 40Hz, 45Hz or even 50Hz as full range. I would say with most newer music "full range" to me might mean more like down to 30Hz at -3dB's which would usually be a fairly expensive tower. Very few towers will hit 30Hz or below at -3dB's (regardless what the manufacturers specs might state). Low frequency claims without decibel reference or terms such as in room low end or usable bass extension are meaningless without any reference.
The T1 is less than 38" tall and weighs only 40 lbs. I would not myself call that a full range tower. The Emo spec is a little unusual to me in that it says: 37 Hz - 28 kHz (+0/-6 dB) rather than the usual for example: 45-18,000 Hz +/- 3 dB's. Does the T1 spec mean it is flat at 37Hz and down -6 at 28kHz? ----- or -3 or -6 at 37Hz? I'm a little confused. The published FR graph is pretty much useless to me because it does not denote the frequencies between the lines from 20-200Hz. I'm guessing it might when properly placed in most rooms be down -3dB's at about the 45Hz or so area (maybe 40Hz?). I like low but very clean and low distortion bass and would match it with a 27-30Hz at -3dB's sub for music and a 15-22Hz at -3dB's sub for movies. I would cross the T1 (set to small) to the sub at 70-80Hz. The T1 looks to me like a great moderately sized tower speaker for this price range that should give fairly low bass for many folks but need a sub for more low bass picky folks. For an intro discounted price of $315, the T1 seems like a steel! Find another tower speaker (not DIY) with this quality build and drivers plus folded ribbon tweeter in the $600-$700/pr price range. |
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Post by bluemeanies on Aug 26, 2016 5:52:21 GMT -5
I thought that was a bit odd myself and I don't even subscribe to them. OK... My opinion has moderated a bit since last evening, as I spent some time today playing the T1's LOUD to 'break them in'. That being said, I still think they could have done better, even at this price point. To answer questions about my setup: I was playing CDs through a Panny DMPBDT500, a Sony 5 disc changer, and my HTPC with VLC. (the differences in SQ were negligible between these 3) Those were run into an Emotiva UMC-1, into a UPA-500, and finally out into the T1's. Bass content was anemic last night (putting it mildly) ...that has since been improved... thank god.. The mids and highs are loud by way of comparison, and the mid is too loud vs the high...my opinion.. Mostly, and overall, this speaker could have been a 'star' with just a few more design changes. Maybe the T10s are going to be that star, but how much will they cost? (UMC vs XMC come to mind) *rolls eyes* As for the frequency response chart, If it is accurate, it's not using the measurement method I am used to ...at least to my way of understanding. That chart is what made me pull the trigger on these. I mean, looking at that chart, you'd think the T1's kill it.. not so.. Where does all this come from? Well, this is the first pair of manufactured speakers (outside of car-audio), that I have ever purchased. Up until now, I've been a DIY guy and built my own. What am I comparing the T1s to? ...a set of speakers I built based on the ProAc 2.5... My observations are that the midrange clouds out the ribbon a bit, and that the woofers are quiet compared to M/H. My set of DIY speakers using the Scan-Speak 8545, and the 9500 tweeter are much more balanced, less distorted, and do not 'cloud' in the upper mids and low highs the way the T1 does. Anyway...FWIW and YMMV.  Lastly, I agree with the "you get what you pay for" adage. BUT IMO, I think Emotiva used to be the exception to this rule at one time, maybe not so much anymore.. Cheers Sorry about your disappoint in regards to the T1. I might get scolded here but I am prepared. IMO Emotiva should have never entered into the speaker arena for serious cased critical listening. You may not agree but most of us are crictical listeners. I mentioned something along this line weeks ago about what quality and how much goes into a speaker at a price point of a few hundred dollars. Realisticly considering how much cost goes into the development, design. cabinet, and electronic composition of a speaker and then the marketing of that speaker.. I know am going to hear 💩About this but it is MO. I am not judging anyone who has purchased these speakers...everyone spends what they can afford too. I was there, and considering some of the systems I have seen on this forum and others I still may be there. However, I have reached IMO my Everest and I am very satisfied and see no reason to upgrade unless I have a major malfunction with a particular unit. Hell I still use DVI into HDMI with my projector/processor setup. I believe Emtovia does a substantially good job with amplifiers, after that dacs, and the XSP1. Their shortcoming is the speaker. Electronics is what Emotiva does well and that's what they should stick to and leave the speakers to the company where the speaker is their cash cow. To mention a few of very well made speakers at VERY competitive prices all of which I have heard...Salk, Philharmonic and Tekton. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Aug 26, 2016 7:37:05 GMT -5
It seems that the T1 needs to be matched with a subwoofer to get the "Full Range" sound. That is not unusual for a speaker of this size. My Thiel CS1.6's are matched with an SVS sub and sound great. I knew that I would need a sub when I bought them. You want to go low, get a subwoofer.
I don't agree that Emotiva needs to stay out of the speaker biz. They have made good quality speakers at very reasonable prices that appeal to many people. I believe the current lineup reflects that. If you want better sound, there are many, many, choices out there at much higher price points.
A friend of mine has the older speakers (don't recall models) and dual subs in his home theater and the sound is tremendous for what he paid. I have the ERD-1 surrounds and could not be happier with their build quality and performance.
Just my .02.
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Post by garbulky on Aug 26, 2016 8:05:00 GMT -5
I'm not ready to discount the speakers yet. To do so immediately is premature. But I also won't discount the gentleman's experience. I believe he heard what he heard. I hope he finds a great match for him! It sucks to be dissapointed. I hope others have better experiences.  |
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Post by wreckingball on Aug 26, 2016 8:08:12 GMT -5
@ Chuckie: No I did not use auto setup or a RS meter, I simply compared them to my (1 working) Pro Ac Clones that I built. Played around a bit with EQ is about it. Again just a quick comparison.
@ bluemeanies: Not sure if I think they should have never entered speakers, but I *most definitely* believe electronics is what they do best, and at the best price point! I own said UPA500, 2 XPA 5s, the UMC-1, and a Shearbourn PT7020A.
I wouldn't dream these would be as good for critical listening as say, my electrostats (basement HT), but that's not really my issue. I'm just having a hard time believing a single SS8545, in a mini t-line, has more authority in the kick drum range than the two 6's in the T1. btw, t-lines are not exactly known for their 'punch'.
Just to get back to my original thoughts, normally given my building background, I'd just pad the mid, and live with the compromise, but the T1 is already at 88dB, and this would make it all the more quiet.
Plus, and this is my biggest, I don't know if I trust the woofers to take the make-up gain that would be required.
IDK, I've got thirty days, and as mentioned, a potential buyer (god I hope he really likes them) *crosses fingers*
One good thing is that he uses two subs while listening to music, so that's very encouraging.
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Post by garbulky on Aug 26, 2016 9:09:02 GMT -5
@ Chuckie: No I did not use auto setup or a RS meter, I simply compared them to my (1 working) Pro Ac Clones that I built. Played around a bit with EQ is about it. Again just a quick comparison. @ bluemeanies: Not sure if I think they should have never entered speakers, but I *most definitely* believe electronics is what they do best, and at the best price point! I own said UPA500, 2 XPA 5s, the UMC-1, and a Shearbourn PT7020A. I wouldn't dream these would be as good for critical listening as say, my electrostats (basement HT), but that's not really my issue. I'm just having a hard time believing a single SS8545, in a mini t-line, has more authority in the kick drum range than the two 6's in the T1. btw, t-lines are not exactly known for their 'punch'. Just to get back to my original thoughts, normally given my building background, I'd just pad the mid, and live with the compromise, but the T1 is already at 88dB, and this would make it all the more quiet. Plus, and this is my biggest, I don't know if I trust the woofers to take the make-up gain that would be required. IDK, I've got thirty days, and as mentioned, a potential buyer (god I hope he really likes them) *crosses fingers* One good thing is that he uses two subs while listening to music, so that's very encouraging. Have you tried playing with the positioning? Like pulling them forward, changing toe in etc? I am surprised at the lack of bass. The airmotiv 4 (for its size) did quite well in the bass. I have heard very expensive bookshelves that promise tons of high quality bass only to be dissapointed in no bass. Surprised these towers do that for ya! |
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Post by wreckingball on Aug 26, 2016 9:59:17 GMT -5
Yea, that's next. I actually have day off, and will play around a bit. Currently have UMC-1 EQ tweaked +2dB @31.5, +3dB @63, -1dB @125, +2dB @18k, effectively de-emphasizing the mid, adding a bit of 'air' and liking the sound. The UPA-500 is rated @ 140wpc, I want to crank it up with the lows EQed, but am worried for the woofers because the cones are moving quite a ways.. (I'll proceed with caution..) @ Chuckie: Actually the graph does have the marking, 20,30,40 etc.. T1_Frequency_Response.pdf (22.69 KB) |
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Post by monkumonku on Aug 26, 2016 10:24:09 GMT -5
Being that I've owned a few Emo speakers and still have the Airmotiv 4's which I like very much, I felt compelled to add my two cents in this thread. I think Emo supplies good value for the money with all their products, including speakers. The new line just released seems to be very reasonably priced for what you get, including the AMT tweeters that in my Airmotiv and the Stealth 8's I used to own, delivered very crisp but smooth and non-fatiguing sound. I owned the 6.2, 6.3 and ERM-1 models of the original series as well and thought they were good values. That said, I replaced the Stealths with different speakers and I consider the Sierras I am using now as the best of all that I've tried so far, good enough that I don't have any desire to try anything else (at least for now ). But that doesn't mean the Emotiva speakers I've owned were not good. On the contrary, they were certainly worth owning and as I said, I still use the Airmotiv 4's with my desktop PC and love them. As with anything, people have all kinds of opinions about speakers. Someone posts something negative about the Emo speakers and then others jump in trying to refute that or make suggestions as to why they aren't sounding as good as they ought to. Some say the bass is too strong, others it is too weak, the mids too prominent or recessed, the highs too high or not enough, etc. It all boils down to taste. What is too much bass for one person is not enough for another. Plus when you've gotten used to listening to one set of speakers, unless those are defective in some way, then a new set of speakers is often not going to sound "better" because you're used to what you've been listening to for a long time. It seems to me that unless someone's review has complaints that don't sound realistic for the speaker, i.e., some extreme characteristic that normally would be taken as a defect, then what you're hearing from the review is a reflection of that person's preferences when it comes to sound. I don't feel that because person A doesn't care for how the speaker sounds that it means Emo should get out of the speaker business. There's far too many people who really like their Emo speakers. Conversely, that doesn't mean because so many people like them that everyone has to like them. My suggestion is do what I do - when I come across I review I don't agree with, I just assume that person doesn't know what the heck they are talking about and is incompetent.  |
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Post by brutiarti on Aug 26, 2016 10:28:17 GMT -5
The reality is that line of speakers are not designed to critical listening. They are well priced entry level speakers to compete with the high praised Elacs. Who wins? We will know when people start putting more reviews out there. I don't see any problems with Emotiva trying to get in the speaker market again. Unless they promise that they can compete with 10K speakers or something like that, but they didn't do that.
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Post by monkumonku on Aug 26, 2016 10:32:48 GMT -5
The reality is that line of speakers are not designed to critical listening. They are well priced entry level speakers to compete with the high praised Elacs. Who wins? We will know when people start putting more reviews out there. I don't see any problems with Emotiva trying to get in the speaker market again. Unless they promise that they can compete with 10K speakers or something like that, but they didn't do that. But what is meant by "critical listening?" I think some folks just want to enjoy the music. If it sounds good to them then they're happy. That to me is the most critical aspect of listening to anything. I hear people criticize speakers or other equipment for sounding "analytical." But shouldn't analytical enable them to really listen critically? Okay I will stop now before I bury myself under my words. |
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Post by adaboy on Aug 26, 2016 10:34:25 GMT -5
I thought that was a bit odd myself and I don't even subscribe to them. OK... My opinion has moderated a bit since last evening, as I spent some time today playing the T1's LOUD to 'break them in'. That being said, I still think they could have done better, even at this price point. To answer questions about my setup: I was playing CDs through a Panny DMPBDT500, a Sony 5 disc changer, and my HTPC with VLC. (the differences in SQ were negligible between these 3) Those were run into an Emotiva UMC-1, into a UPA-500, and finally out into the T1's. Bass content was anemic last night (putting it mildly) ...that has since been improved... thank god.. The mids and highs are loud by way of comparison, and the mid is too loud vs the high...my opinion.. Mostly, and overall, this speaker could have been a 'star' with just a few more design changes. Maybe the T10s are going to be that star, but how much will they cost? (UMC vs XMC come to mind) *rolls eyes* As for the frequency response chart, If it is accurate, it's not using the measurement method I am used to ...at least to my way of understanding. That chart is what made me pull the trigger on these. I mean, looking at that chart, you'd think the T1's kill it.. not so.. Where does all this come from? Well, this is the first pair of manufactured speakers (outside of car-audio), that I have ever purchased. Up until now, I've been a DIY guy and built my own. What am I comparing the T1s to? ...a set of speakers I built based on the ProAc 2.5... My observations are that the midrange clouds out the ribbon a bit, and that the woofers are quiet compared to M/H. My set of DIY speakers using the Scan-Speak 8545, and the 9500 tweeter are much more balanced, less distorted, and do not 'cloud' in the upper mids and low highs the way the T1 does. Anyway...FWIW and YMMV. Lastly, I agree with the "you get what you pay for" adage. BUT IMO, I think Emotiva used to be the exception to this rule at one time, maybe not so much anymore.. Cheers Sorry that you aren't satisfied with them (yet) I do value your opinion and thanks for sharing it. It is refreshing to hear honest subjective feedback from actual owners. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 26, 2016 11:48:52 GMT -5
Technically, in terms of the information that's there, specifying a response as +/- 3 dB is precisely the same as saying +0/-6 dB. (We'll change them if anybody finds that confusing.) Thanks for this... just solidifies my opinion.. And this goes back to my position on the T1s.. why should one need a sub to augment a FULL TOWER? Doesn't make sense to me.. Huh? ..lolz... Like you say though... my opinion might change ..I doubt it though...hahahahh Night folks.. I have several questions for my curiosity. ..................................
The T1 is less than 38" tall and weighs only 40 lbs. I would not myself call that a full range tower. The Emo spec is a little unusual to me in that it says: 37 Hz - 28 kHz (+0/-6 dB) rather than the usual for example: 45-18,000 Hz +/- 3 dB's. Does the T1 spec mean it is flat at 37Hz and down -6 at 28kHz? ----- or -3 or -6 at 37Hz? I'm a little confused. The published FR graph is pretty much useless to me because it does not denote the frequencies between the lines from 20-200Hz. I'm guessing it might when properly placed in most rooms be down -3dB's at about the 45Hz or so area (maybe 40Hz?). ................................ |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 11:49:34 GMT -5
I'm interested in exploring this a little further. Wreckingball, do you have measurements or more information about the DIY speakers you are comparing the T1 to? How large are they/how many woofers of what size(s)? What did they cost you? (And keep in mind that the cost of a DIY project often has little to do with the actual cost of manufacturing a product and bringing it to market on a large scale, as a business).
Also, a typical convention on any type of graph (except for the deliberately misleading) is for the minor grid lines to be evenly spaced between the major lines (or the logarithmic equivalent for a log scale -- frequency response scales are logarithmic to follow our perception of pitch), so on our frequency response graphs, the lines represent 2 dB each, and they all have the same spacing. You'll see that the response curve fits neatly between the limits. I produced the graphs and their source measurement data, so I know precisely how they were done.
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Post by Axis on Aug 26, 2016 11:53:55 GMT -5
I'm interested in exploring this a little further. Wreckingball, do you have measurements or more information about the DIY speakers you are comparing the T1 to? How large are they/how many woofers of what size(s)? Also, a typical convention on any type of graph (except for the deliberately misleading) is for the minor grid lines to be evenly spaced between the major lines (or the logarithmic equivalent for a log scale -- frequency response scales are logarithmic to follow our perception of pitch), so on our frequency response graphs, the lines represent 2 dB each, and they all have the same spacing. You'll see that the response curve fits neatly between the limits. I produced the graphs and their source measurement data, so I know precisely how they were done. Get in here Rory ! |
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Post by Axis on Aug 26, 2016 12:08:07 GMT -5
While your in here, explain why the folded ribbon tweeters sound so smooth and do not seem to sound so harsh and over bearing as the dome tweeters I have had in the past.
Is it just me ?
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Post by rbk123 on Aug 26, 2016 12:19:03 GMT -5
I'm not ready to discount the speakers yet. To do so immediately is premature. But I also won't discount the gentleman's experience. I believe he heard what he heard. I hope he finds a great match for him! It sucks to be dissapointed. I hope others have better experiences. +2 - I second this. Everyone's ears are different, and everyone's expectations on what the T1's should do can be different as well. |
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