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Post by garbulky on Aug 26, 2016 14:20:57 GMT -5
No I think it means the highest frequency is 6 db softer from flat 0 db. Louder than any point up to the drop means that 37 hz is plus so many db What  ?? Speak up!!  My mistake. Okay so if it is 30 hz to 20 khz +/- 3 db, the refernce tone sweep will be played at a volume - say 80 db. And it will not be louder than 3 db from it and it will not be softer than 3db from it. (so +-3db from flat) 30 hz to 20 khz 0,-6db well it's either 30 hz is totally flat to that reference point and the highest frequency is 6 db less than flat. But whatever it is ...it won't be higher than flat. Now you got me confused too. Darn it Chuckie, you are making me nuts. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 14:23:11 GMT -5
Jus that you haven't heard better tweeters does certainly not mean there are no better ones. Just to mention a few, the B&W diamonds, Infinty EMIT, Focal Beryllium and some of the Dynaudio are better. Than we have a range of Electrostatics and Maghestatics, albeit there not tweeters in the traditional meaning. FTR, I have a pair of AM 5s. They sound very good for the money. 👍 Your you're selling me short there qdtjni. I have heard all the speakers you list and then some. Been doing this for fifty years. I posted not to long ago that exotic dome tweeters that cost more than gold can be very good but the common fabric or metal domes in most speakers distort. I got hate mail because I said they distort. I stand by what I say. Read the post that Rory just made. He echo's my thoughts on these new Emotiva tweeters. The tweeters I have been living with for the last seventeen years are samarium cobalt tweeters that extend to 70,000 hz and bells sound incredible on them. It actually freaks you out how they fill the room with strings and bells but they are not as smooth with the full range highs that I get from my Airmotiv's. I have a feeling others will discover this. AS a side note. I preferred the 3/4" soft dome tweeters on my ADS speakers over the EMIT on my Kappa 9's. Often it is a question of integration, since I have heard EMIT-R's that I liked, but the care and feeding of different types of drivers are as different as the technologies they employ. Domes tend to tolerate low crossover points and shallow slopes well (which is why my THIEL CS1.7 speakers use domes, together with first-order filters which were the designer's choice), while planars tend not to. AMT-style tweeters like the Airmotiv folded ribbon are somewhere in between, but closer to domes. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 14:36:00 GMT -5
Yea, that's next. I actually have day off, and will play around a bit. Currently have UMC-1 EQ tweaked +2dB @31.5, +3dB @63, -1dB @125, +2dB @18k, effectively de-emphasizing the mid, adding a bit of 'air' and liking the sound. The UPA-500 is rated @ 140wpc, I want to crank it up with the lows EQed, but am worried for the woofers because the cones are moving quite a ways.. (I'll proceed with caution..) @ Chuckie: Actually the graph does have the marking, 20,30,40 etc.. You are actually boosting near the low end of the T1, +3dB's at 63Hz and also below the low end +2dB's at 31.5Hz. That is too much for this speaker and amp. You are in effect lowering the amp to 70 wpc (3dB boost takes double the power). If you want to de-emphasize the mids then lower the mids EQ setting but don't raise the bass EQ settings. This is basic stuff. What you need with the T1's if in fact you have them properly placed in the room and correctly EQ'd and still think they are bass shy ...... You need a quality sub taking over at about 70-80Hz. The pdf I see of the FR graph has frequency marks at 20Hz and then 200Hz. It is not possible to tell what frequencies the lines in between 20Hz and 200Hz are. Unless my laptop is not seeing the same graph as you. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 14:44:11 GMT -5
What ?? Speak up!! My mistake. Okay so if it is 30 hz to 20 khz +/- 3 db, the refernce tone sweep will be played at a volume - say 80 db. And it will not be louder than 3 db from it and it will not be softer than 3db from it. (so +-3db from flat) 30 hz to 20 khz 0,-6db well it's either 30 hz is totally flat to that reference point and the highest frequency is 6 db less than flat. But whatever it is ...it won't be higher than flat. Now you got me confused too. Darn it Chuckie, you are making me nuts. I think you see why the traditional +/-3dB spec is much more relevant and non-confusing. Some brands will add for example -3dB's at 45Hz, and -6dB's at 35Hz, etc. It gives a reasonable idea of the low end. I really don't care much about the high end as most folks can't hear above 13-17kHz or so anyway. I'm much more interested to see that there is not a rising high end in the 12kHz to 20kHz range that IMO tends to make the treble sound edgy and fatiguing. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 14:47:37 GMT -5
The pdf I see of the FR graph has frequency marks at 20Hz and then 200Hz. It is not possible to tell what frequencies the lines in between 20Hz and 200Hz are. Unless my laptop is not seeing the same graph as you. The frequency scale is logarithmic, base 10, same as other frequency response graphs you have seen. It starts at 20 Hz, then goes to 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, then 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, then 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, and so on to 10,000, then 20,000, then 30,000. I used Excel to create the graph, and I am still looking for the options that used to exist that would allow me to add labels to the minor gridlines. Excel 2016 is the most frustrating version yet to use for this, because of how they've tried to hide away all the complexity. I will see if there is some way for me to add the extra labels to the axis. |
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Post by Axis on Aug 26, 2016 15:06:53 GMT -5
Your you're selling me short there qdtjni. I have heard all the speakers you list and then some. Been doing this for fifty years. I posted not to long ago that exotic dome tweeters that cost more than gold can be very good but the common fabric or metal domes in most speakers distort. I got hate mail because I said they distort. I stand by what I say. Read the post that Rory just made. He echo's my thoughts on these new Emotiva tweeters. The tweeters I have been living with for the last seventeen years are samarium cobalt tweeters that extend to 70,000 hz and bells sound incredible on them. It actually freaks you out how they fill the room with strings and bells but they are not as smooth with the full range highs that I get from my Airmotiv's. I have a feeling others will discover this. AS a side note. I preferred the 3/4" soft dome tweeters on my ADS speakers over the EMIT on my Kappa 9's. Often it is a question of integration, since I have heard EMIT-R's that I liked, but the care and feeding of different types of drivers are as different as the technologies they employ. Domes tend to tolerate low crossover points and shallow slopes well (which is why my THIEL CS1.7 speakers use domes, together with first-order filters which were the designer's choice), while planars tend not to. AMT-style tweeters like the Airmotiv folded ribbon are somewhere in between, but closer to domes. Both the ADS and the Infinity had dome midranges. They were both beside each other in the same room for several years. The Kappa 9 had a EMIT-K super tweeter and EMIT-K tweeter with two dome mid drivers. The ADS L1230 had a single 3/4" soft dome and single dome mid driver. Integration had a lot to do with it. I think they used too many drivers on those big Kappa's. There is something to be said for a 3/4" dome tweeter over a 1" dome tweeter. I found I liked the 3/4" tweeters when I was building car audio systems and have always preferred the soft dome over hard dome. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 15:10:54 GMT -5
The pdf I see of the FR graph has frequency marks at 20Hz and then 200Hz. It is not possible to tell what frequencies the lines in between 20Hz and 200Hz are. Unless my laptop is not seeing the same graph as you. The frequency scale is logarithmic, base 10, same as other frequency response graphs you have seen. It starts at 20 Hz, then goes to 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, then 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, then 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, and so on to 10,000, then 20,000, then 30,000. I used Excel to create the graph, and I am still looking for the options that used to exist that would allow me to add labels to the minor gridlines. Excel 2016 is the most frustrating version yet to use for this, because of how they've tried to hide away all the complexity. I will see if there is some way for me to add the extra labels to the axis. Thanks Rory, very much appreciated! I went back with these figures and would spec the T1 at about +/- 3dB's from 37Hz - 23kHz. So it tests out at -3dB's at 37Hz and seems to peak at +3dB's in the 60-90Hz range. That would seem to make it sound fairly bass strong to most folks and relatively flat from there on up, 200Hz and plus. Nice graph! I think most will be quite happy with the T1 plus the C1, B1 and E1. Nice job! Of course, I usually find the FR graphs rather optimistic especially in the high end and quite different depending on one's room and placement. But I think Emo hit another home run with these new speakers, especially at this price! Many here are less than complimentary about the Emo speakers. I think they have been a steel! I own the ERM-1, ERD-1, and Airmotiv 4's. They are undoubtedly the best bang for the buck speakers I have owned or listened to in the past 47 years when I bought my first pair of speakers, Wharfedale floor-standers. |
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Post by monkumonku on Aug 26, 2016 15:18:38 GMT -5
Often it is a question of integration, since I have heard EMIT-R's that I liked, but the care and feeding of different types of drivers are as different as the technologies they employ. Domes tend to tolerate low crossover points and shallow slopes well (which is why my THIEL CS1.7 speakers use domes, together with first-order filters which were the designer's choice), while planars tend not to. AMT-style tweeters like the Airmotiv folded ribbon are somewhere in between, but closer to domes. Both the ADS and the Infinity had dome midranges. They were both beside each other in the same room for several years. The Kappa 9 had a EMIT-K super tweeter and EMIT-K tweeter with two dome mid drivers. The ADS L1230 had a single 3/4" soft dome and single dome mid driver. Integration had a lot to do with it. I think they used too many drivers on those big Kappa's. There is something to be said for a 3/4" dome tweeter over a 1" dome tweeter. I found I liked the 3/4" tweeters when I was building car audio systems and have always preferred the soft dome over hard dome. I had the ADS 810's and those were really good speakers. The dome mid range and tweeters were really nice. That said, with all the discussion of tweeters going on no one has mentioned the very best - RAAL. That's the best I've heard. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 15:27:36 GMT -5
I had the ADS 810's and those were really good speakers. The dome mid range and tweeters were really nice. That said, with all the discussion of tweeters going on no one has mentioned the very best - RAAL. That's the best I've heard. I agree, the ADS-810's were very nice! I thought REAL was a designation for a Hispanic soccer team? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 15:28:06 GMT -5
Both the ADS and the Infinity had dome midranges. They were both beside each other in the same room for several years. The Kappa 9 had a EMIT-K super tweeter and EMIT-K tweeter with two dome mid drivers. The ADS L1230 had a single 3/4" soft dome and single dome mid driver. Integration had a lot to do with it. I think they used too many drivers on those big Kappa's. There is something to be said for a 3/4" dome tweeter over a 1" dome tweeter. I found I liked the 3/4" tweeters when I was building car audio systems and have always preferred the soft dome over hard dome. I had the ADS 810's and those were really good speakers. The dome mid range and tweeters were really nice. That said, with all the discussion of tweeters going on no one has mentioned the very best - RAAL. That's the best I've heard. I have heard the RAAL ribbons, and while they were not free of their own character, they were the most 'real' sounding treble I have heard. The ceramic domes from Transducer Labs are the most real sounding dome tweeter I have heard. Other favorites are the Vifa XT25 ring radiator and its dome cousin the DX25, the B-G Neo3PDR, the Scan-Speak Illuminator beryllium dome, and the large AMT in the Emotiva Stealth 8. Another good and affordable tweeter I have heard and used is the SEAS 22TAF/G, which blends soft dome and metal dome characteristics while mitigating their weaknesses. I also have liked the Dynaudio tweeters I have heard, and to a lesser extent, the Morel. The Scan-Speak Revelator tweeter is probably the top fabric dome I have heard. But so much of it comes down to implementation. |
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Post by Axis on Aug 26, 2016 15:35:42 GMT -5
Both the ADS and the Infinity had dome midranges. They were both beside each other in the same room for several years. The Kappa 9 had a EMIT-K super tweeter and EMIT-K tweeter with two dome mid drivers. The ADS L1230 had a single 3/4" soft dome and single dome mid driver. Integration had a lot to do with it. I think they used too many drivers on those big Kappa's. There is something to be said for a 3/4" dome tweeter over a 1" dome tweeter. I found I liked the 3/4" tweeters when I was building car audio systems and have always preferred the soft dome over hard dome. I had the ADS 810's and those were really good speakers. The dome mid range and tweeters were really nice. That said, with all the discussion of tweeters going on no one has mentioned the very best - RAAL. That's the best I've heard. I loved ADS speakers. I had just about ever model they came out with. I have been telling myself that I want to hear the RAAL for awhile now. If I was living in a house where I did not have to worry about neighbors I would buy some of the Big Salk speakers with a RAAL sound unheard. And I may do that if I get a house in the future. There were a couple threads over at AVSForum that were long search journeys for speakers. These guys spent a long time traveling to hear all the speakers. It was about the same time Jim Salk got started and Dennis Murphy was doing the crossovers for him and before Philharmonic Audio. I was impressed at all the speakers that the Salk's won over by many folks. I noticed the RAAL tweeters and when I looked up other speakers with them they got excellent reviews. Truth is, I may not be getting anymore gear for awhile. I think I am about to pack up my stuff and move onto a sailboat. I have been telling myself to do it for awhile and my accounts have matured enough over the past two years sitting here that the finances are there do it with no problems. I wonder what Emotiva will be making five years from now when I get back on dry land ? Oh, I am taking my DC-1 and Airmotiv's with me ! |
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Post by monkumonku on Aug 26, 2016 15:42:37 GMT -5
I had the ADS 810's and those were really good speakers. The dome mid range and tweeters were really nice. That said, with all the discussion of tweeters going on no one has mentioned the very best - RAAL. That's the best I've heard. I agree, the ADS-810's were very nice! I thought REAL was a designation for a Hispanic soccer team? No, RAAL, like... "That there's a raal big bear you done run over." |
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Post by monkumonku on Aug 26, 2016 15:44:35 GMT -5
I had the ADS 810's and those were really good speakers. The dome mid range and tweeters were really nice. That said, with all the discussion of tweeters going on no one has mentioned the very best - RAAL. That's the best I've heard. I have heard the RAAL ribbons, and while they were not free of their own character, they were the most 'real' sounding treble I have heard. The ceramic domes from Transducer Labs are the most real sounding dome tweeter I have heard. Other favorites are the Vifa XT25 ring radiator and its dome cousin the DX25, the B-G Neo3PDR, the Scan-Speak Illuminator beryllium dome, and the large AMT in the Emotiva Stealth 8. Another good and affordable tweeter I have heard and used is the SEAS 22TAF/G, which blends soft dome and metal dome characteristics while mitigating their weaknesses. I also have liked the Dynaudio tweeters I have heard, and to a lesser extent, the Morel. The Scan-Speak Revelator tweeter is probably the top fabric dome I have heard. But so much of it comes down to implementation. I think the AMT tweeters are excellent, even more so considering your speaker pricing! |
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Post by Axis on Aug 26, 2016 16:06:09 GMT -5
Both the ADS and the Infinity had dome midranges. They were both beside each other in the same room for several years. The Kappa 9 had a EMIT-K super tweeter and EMIT-K tweeter with two dome mid drivers. The ADS L1230 had a single 3/4" soft dome and single dome mid driver. Integration had a lot to do with it. I think they used too many drivers on those big Kappa's. There is something to be said for a 3/4" dome tweeter over a 1" dome tweeter. I found I liked the 3/4" tweeters when I was building car audio systems and have always preferred the soft dome over hard dome. I had the ADS 810's and those were really good speakers. The dome mid range and tweeters were really nice. That said, with all the discussion of tweeters going on no one has mentioned the very best - RAAL. That's the best I've heard. I mentioned the RAAL tweeters on my first post of page # 4. "have not heard the RAAL ribbon tweeter that I see on speakers systems that get very good reviews for the highs" |
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Post by monkumonku on Aug 26, 2016 16:21:06 GMT -5
I had the ADS 810's and those were really good speakers. The dome mid range and tweeters were really nice. That said, with all the discussion of tweeters going on no one has mentioned the very best - RAAL. That's the best I've heard. I mentioned the RAAL tweeters on my first post of page # 4. "have not heard the RAAL ribbon tweeter that I see on speakers systems that get very good reviews for the highs" Oops... well I overlooked that. But they don't seem to get many mentions. Probably because so few speakers use them. |
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Post by Axis on Aug 26, 2016 16:39:25 GMT -5
I mentioned the RAAL tweeters on my first post of page # 4. "have not heard the RAAL ribbon tweeter that I see on speakers systems that get very good reviews for the highs" Oops... well I overlooked that. But they don't seem to get many mentions. Probably because so few speakers use them. Hard to nail down the price on them but it looks like they are around $600 a piece and up. |
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Post by garbulky on Aug 26, 2016 17:18:24 GMT -5
Oops... well I overlooked that. But they don't seem to get many mentions. Probably because so few speakers use them. Hard to nail down the price on them but it looks like they are around $600 a piece and up. Philharmonic audio makes several units with RAAL tweeters on them. Very reasonably priced. (Still $$ of course). philharmonicaudio.com/ |
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Post by Axis on Aug 26, 2016 17:34:08 GMT -5
Hard to nail down the price on them but it looks like they are around $600 a piece and up. Philharmonic audio makes several units with RAAL tweeters on them. Very reasonably priced. (Still $$ of course). philharmonicaudio.com/Dennis Murphy designed the crossovers for Jim Salk and his Salk speakers before he started Philharmonic Audio. They both use the RAAL ribbon tweeters in there speakers. Not sure that they would pay the prices I see on Madisound Speaker for them and there are many models that cost different so I posted the high side price. If you search all the speakers that use them and there price, it appears to be reflected in the price. I priced the Philharmonic speakers with them when they first came out and just as Salk speakers have gone up in price so has Philharmonic. I would buy both Philharmonic and Salk sound unheard just based on the reviews I have read and the popularity of them would be the reason the price has increased on both. www.salksound.com/home.phpThe price of $6495 per pair for the Salk Veracity HT3 was $3400 when they first came out years ago. This is the speaker I would like to have right now. www.salksound.com/model.php?model=Veracity+HT3 |
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Post by Axis on Aug 26, 2016 17:53:44 GMT -5
Here is the Philharmonic 1 I looked at in 2012.  Specs: Drivers SB Acoustics 23NRXS45-8 woofer, BG Neo8 planar midrange, Fountek Neo3 ribbon tweeter Response 32Hz – 20kHz (+/- 2 dB) Sensitivity 87.5 db (dB/2.83v/1M) Box Alignment Mass-loaded transmission line Dimensions 41.5” H x 11.5” W x 21” D Price $1600/pair The Philharmonic 2 had a RAAL tweeter. They do not make the one and two now.  Specs: Drivers SB Acoustics 23NRXS45-8 woofer, BG Neo8 planar midrange, RAAL 10D ribbon tweeter Response 32Hz – 20kHz (+/- 2 dB) Sensitivity 87.5 db (dB/2.83v/1M) Box Alignment Mass-loaded transmission line Dimensions 41.5” H x 11.5” W x 21” D Price $2000/pair |
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Post by wreckingball on Aug 26, 2016 18:45:35 GMT -5
Yea, that's next. I actually have day off, and will play around a bit. Currently have UMC-1 EQ tweaked +2dB @31.5, +3dB @63, -1dB @125, +2dB @18k, effectively de-emphasizing the mid, adding a bit of 'air' and liking the sound. The UPA-500 is rated @ 140wpc, I want to crank it up with the lows EQed, but am worried for the woofers because the cones are moving quite a ways.. (I'll proceed with caution..) @ Chuckie: Actually the graph does have the marking, 20,30,40 etc.. You are actually boosting near the low end of the T1, +3dB's at 63Hz and also below the low end +2dB's at 31.5Hz. That is too much for this speaker and amp. You are in effect lowering the amp to 70 wpc (3dB boost takes double the power). If you want to de-emphasize the mids then lower the mids EQ setting but don't raise the bass EQ settings. This is basic stuff. All this is understood, it was just easier to boost lows and keep the volume at a reasonable level. But point is now moot anyway... How do they say it? Oh yeah: "Aaaand SOLD!"He's also one happy camper! ..as his room is about 10'x14' and the low-end sounds terrific in it! I'm either going to fix the one 8545 that the damn mouse got hold of (tinsel lead), and order a pair of ribbons, or just hold out for the T-10s. Either way, I'm a happy camper as well...wooohooo! |
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