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Post by pedrocols on Aug 26, 2016 12:34:18 GMT -5
While your in here, explain why the folded ribbon tweeters sound so smooth and do not seem to sound so harsh and over bearing as the dome tweeters I have had in the past. Is it just me ? Driver integration is also part of the equation as well as crossover design. A well balanced design has greater impact than just a smooth tweeter. |
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Post by garbulky on Aug 26, 2016 12:38:45 GMT -5
And how. From what I gather the old Axiom Tweeter is not actually terribly expensive. And granted...it's not perfect. I've heard some higher resolution units. For instance...in certain aspects (mainly producing a "soundfield") the airmotiv tweeter gave that impression. So did the Paradigm studio 100 and the LSA-1 signatures. While the Axiom tweeter simply couldn't reproduce that combination of resolution and speed. However the good integration of all the drivers together produces a sound that overall is more pleasing and realistic to my ears.
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Post by pedrocols on Aug 26, 2016 12:49:54 GMT -5
And how. From what I gather the old Axiom Tweeter is not actually terribly expensive. And granted...it's not perfect. I've heard some higher resolution units. For instance...in certain aspects (mainly producing a "soundfield") the airmotiv tweeter gave that impression. So did the Paradigm studio 100 and the LSA-1 signatures. While the Axiom tweeter simply couldn't reproduce that combination of resolution and speed. However the good integration of all the drivers together produces a sound that overall is more pleasing and realistic to my ears. This is pretty much what I meant. Is not just a good tweeter or driver. For the record I don't like the studios 100 tweeter.... |
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Post by Axis on Aug 26, 2016 13:01:29 GMT -5
I have two drivers on my Airmotiv 5s monitors. It has an active crossover with separate amplifiers for each driver. No doubt Emotiva did a bang up job with the crossover in there powered monitors. I have talked with some other old timers that have these Emotiva monitors and they said that the crossovers in these monitors are a factor also.
Again I say that I have never heard a better tweeter on a speaker than these Airmotiv tweeters. I have not heard the RAAL ribbon tweeter that I see on speakers systems that get very good reviews for the highs but I think something is happening here and would love to hear from someone that designs speakers. No offense to everybody's take on the tweeters that they have and enjoy.
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Post by qdtjni on Aug 26, 2016 13:03:20 GMT -5
Technically, in terms of the information that's there, specifying a response as +/- 3 dB is precisely the same as saying +0/-6 dB. (We'll change them if anybody finds that confusing.) I have several questions for my curiosity. ..................................
The T1 is less than 38" tall and weighs only 40 lbs. I would not myself call that a full range tower. The Emo spec is a little unusual to me in that it says: 37 Hz - 28 kHz (+0/-6 dB) rather than the usual for example: 45-18,000 Hz +/- 3 dB's. Does the T1 spec mean it is flat at 37Hz and down -6 at 28kHz? ----- or -3 or -6 at 37Hz? I'm a little confused. The published FR graph is pretty much useless to me because it does not denote the frequencies between the lines from 20-200Hz. I'm guessing it might when properly placed in most rooms be down -3dB's at about the 45Hz or so area (maybe 40Hz?). ................................ If you have a reference level, how can +/-3 dB be the same as +0/6dB? |
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Post by qdtjni on Aug 26, 2016 13:11:42 GMT -5
I have two drivers on my Airmotiv 5s monitors. It has an active crossover with separate amplifiers for each driver. No doubt Emotiva did a bang up job with the crossover in there powered monitors. I have talked with some other old timers that have these Emotiva monitors and they said that the crossovers in these monitors are a factor also. Again I say that I have never heard a better tweeter on a speaker than these Airmotiv tweeters. I have not heard the RAAL ribbon tweeter that I see on speakers systems that get very good reviews for the highs but I think something is happening here and would love to hear from someone that designs speakers. No offense to everybody's take on the tweeters that they have and enjoy. Jus that you haven't heard better tweeters does certainly not mean there are no better ones. Just to mention a few, the B&W diamonds, Infinty EMIT, Focal Beryllium and some of the Dynaudio are better. Than we have a range of Electrostatics and Maghestatics, albeit there not tweeters in the traditional meaning. FTR, I have a pair of AM 5s. They sound very good for the money. 👍 |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 13:13:46 GMT -5
While your in here, explain why the folded ribbon tweeters sound so smooth and do not seem to sound so harsh and over bearing as the dome tweeters I have had in the past. Is it just me ? Hello Axis and others, The Airmotiv folded ribbon (an AMT-style tweeter) really is a unique concept in transducer design, gathering the best qualities of planar ribbons and dome drivers in a compact package, and I also tend to prefer the treble of AMT-style tweeters to dome treble (with only a few exceptions among the most expensive dome tweeters in existence), although I can and do regularly enjoy speakers with dome tweeters. Dan and Lonnie are both also major proponents of the AMT-style tweeter. The biggest reason I can think of why AMT-style tweeters lack harshness is that they have third-harmonic distortion that is extremely low. Third-order harmonic distortion is the distortion type that we perceive as 'harsh' or 'piercing'. While the second-harmonic distortion of the AMT-style tweeter is only about on-par with a good dome tweeter (and far better than the cheap dome tweeters that find their way into most mass-market speakers), second-harmonic distortion tends to be perceived as "euphonic" - it is the type of distortion that dominates in vacuum tubes, and adds a perception of 'warmth' or 'richness' to sound. Combine that distortion signature with the inherent low mass of the Kapton-film membrane and the fact that the AMT (and those subsequent tweeters based on its technology) operate more by flexing at the corners of each pleat rather than stretching (unlike planar tweeters, which stretch and require careful control over diaphragm tension), and you have a driver that just works in a more elegant way. Lastly, because the diaphragm is folded, it fits into a more compact package, which lets it maintain wide dispersion -- essential for home theater and also desirable for 2-channel audio. I hope this sheds some light on why we use the Airmotiv folded ribbon tweeter so extensively in our products. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 13:15:33 GMT -5
Technically, in terms of the information that's there, specifying a response as +/- 3 dB is precisely the same as saying +0/-6 dB. (We'll change them if anybody finds that confusing.) If you have a reference level, how can +/-3 dB be the same as +0/6dB? Because when you listen for 'flatness', balance, and frequency response extension in either direction, you are concerned with the distance between the limits, and not a reference level. For reference, our sensitivity spec is based on the average level in the range over which the speaker behaves with +/-3dB response, so there is no gamesmanship in our specs. The sensitivity value is rounded to the nearest whole dB, because greater precision is not necessarily representative or useful when considering typical unit-to-unit variation. |
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Post by qdtjni on Aug 26, 2016 13:33:46 GMT -5
If you have a reference level, how can +/-3 dB be the same as +0/6dB? Because when you listen for 'flatness', balance, and frequency response extension in either direction, you are concerned with the distance between the limits, and not a reference level. For reference, our sensitivity spec is based on the average level in the range over which the speaker behaves with +/-3dB response, so there is no gamesmanship in our specs. The sensitivity value is rounded to the nearest whole dB, because greater precision is not necessarily representative or useful when considering typical unit-to-unit variation. I'm not questioning you're measurements, jus the statement of the the two different ways of describing them are the same. Which they certainly are not. |
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Post by Axis on Aug 26, 2016 13:37:41 GMT -5
I have two drivers on my Airmotiv 5s monitors. It has an active crossover with separate amplifiers for each driver. No doubt Emotiva did a bang up job with the crossover in there powered monitors. I have talked with some other old timers that have these Emotiva monitors and they said that the crossovers in these monitors are a factor also. Again I say that I have never heard a better tweeter on a speaker than these Airmotiv tweeters. I have not heard the RAAL ribbon tweeter that I see on speakers systems that get very good reviews for the highs but I think something is happening here and would love to hear from someone that designs speakers. No offense to everybody's take on the tweeters that they have and enjoy. Jus that you haven't heard better tweeters does certainly not mean there are no better ones. Just to mention a few, the B&W diamonds, Infinty EMIT, Focal Beryllium and some of the Dynaudio are better. Than we have a range of Electrostatics and Maghestatics, albeit there not tweeters in the traditional meaning. FTR, I have a pair of AM 5s. They sound very good for the money. 👍 Your selling me short there qdtjni. I have heard all the speakers you list and then some. Been doing this for fifty years. I posted not to long ago that exotic dome tweeters that cost more than gold can be very good but the common fabric or metal domes in most speakers distort. I got hate mail because I said they distort. I stand by what I say. Read the post that Rory just made. He echo's my thoughts on these new Emotiva tweeters. The tweeters I have been living with for the last seventeen years are samarium cobalt tweeters that extend to 70,000 hz and bells sound incredible on them. It actually freaks you out how they fill the room with strings and bells but they are not as smooth with the full range of highs that I get from my Airmotiv's. I have a feeling others will discover this. As a side note, I preferred the 3/4" soft dome tweeters on my ADS speakers over the EMIT's on my Kappa 9's. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 13:43:44 GMT -5
Technically, in terms of the information that's there, specifying a response as +/- 3 dB is precisely the same as saying +0/-6 dB. (We'll change them if anybody finds that confusing.) I have several questions for my curiosity. ..................................
The T1 is less than 38" tall and weighs only 40 lbs. I would not myself call that a full range tower. The Emo spec is a little unusual to me in that it says: 37 Hz - 28 kHz (+0/-6 dB) rather than the usual for example: 45-18,000 Hz +/- 3 dB's. Does the T1 spec mean it is flat at 37Hz and down -6 at 28kHz? ----- or -3 or -6 at 37Hz? I'm a little confused. The published FR graph is pretty much useless to me because it does not denote the frequencies between the lines from 20-200Hz. I'm guessing it might when properly placed in most rooms be down -3dB's at about the 45Hz or so area (maybe 40Hz?). ................................ I find it very confusing and it is not practically speaking the same. Why has Emo changed the way they state speaker frequency response? We all know that is dependent on the room and placement but it at least gives us an estimation of the low end performance. We both know the high end is no where near 28kHz, but most of us can't hear over 12kHz-17kHz depending on age any way. What most of us want is an estimate of the low end and -3dB's, which is a commonly accepted spec. Unfortunately too many brands are now using some nonsense such as frequency range 30Hz-20kHz, completely useless although we will hear folks with these speaker saying they have great bass down to 30Hz (is that down -3dB, -6dB, -12dB, -24dB???).
A typical spec would be 50Hz-20kHz +/- 3dB's. That would mean the FR is down -3dB's at 50 and 20kHz with a peak(s) somewhere most likely in the mid frequencies at +3dB's. My Airmotia 4 is spec'd at 52 Hz to 27 kHz +/- 3 dB. That means it is down about -3dB's at 52Hz (very usefull info for me). In my own FR tests I found this was actually a little conservative and went slightly lower at -3dB's, very impressive. My Emo ERM-1 is spec'd at 80-20kHz +/-2db . That means it is down about -2dB's at 80Hz. This confirms to me that the ERM-1 drops off fast below 80Hz and is designed to be matched with a sub, THX style, (very useful info) I repeat: Does the T1 spec mean it is flat at 37Hz and down -6 at 28kHz? ----- or -3 or -6 at 37Hz? See my confusion?  |
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Post by qdtjni on Aug 26, 2016 13:48:33 GMT -5
Jus that you haven't heard better tweeters does certainly not mean there are no better ones. Just to mention a few, the B&W diamonds, Infinty EMIT, Focal Beryllium and some of the Dynaudio are better. Than we have a range of Electrostatics and Maghestatics, albeit there not tweeters in the traditional meaning. FTR, I have a pair of AM 5s. They sound very good for the money. 👍 Your you're selling me short there qdtjni. I have heard all the speakers you list and then some. Been doing this for fifty years. I posted not to long ago that exotic dome tweeters that cost more than gold can be very good but the common fabric or metal domes in most speakers distort. I got hate mail because I said they distort. I stand by what I say. Read the post that Rory just made. He echo's my thoughts on these new Emotiva tweeters. The tweeters I have been living with for the last seventeen years are samarium cobalt tweeters that extend to 70,000 hz and bells sound incredible on them. It actually freaks you out how they fill the room with strings and bells but they are not as smooth with the full range highs that I get from my Airmotiv's. I have a feeling others will discover this. AS a side note. I preferred the 3/4" soft dome tweeters on my ADS speakers over the EMIT on my Kappa 9's. I appreciate your opinion and will leave at that, i.e. your opinion. I had the Sigma driven by the orginal Classé Omega on a room where I spent over 10k on acoustic treatments, including some 2k for an acoustic engineer. It was far better than my AM 5s when it comes to tweeter performance. That is of course, just my opinion. |
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Post by garbulky on Aug 26, 2016 13:48:56 GMT -5
I think it means its flat at 37 hz and rolls off at the top end
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 13:53:04 GMT -5
If you have a reference level, how can +/-3 dB be the same as +0/6dB? Because when you listen for 'flatness', balance, and frequency response extension in either direction, you are concerned with the distance between the limits, and not a reference level. For reference, our sensitivity spec is based on the average level in the range over which the speaker behaves with +/-3dB response, so there is no gamesmanship in our specs. The sensitivity value is rounded to the nearest whole dB, because greater precision is not necessarily representative or useful when considering typical unit-to-unit variation. So why not list your FR spec as +/- 3dB response like has been traditional (or +/-2dB's or 4 dB's, etc.). This is difference than the sensitivity (efficiency spec). |
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Post by Axis on Aug 26, 2016 13:55:39 GMT -5
Your you're selling me short there qdtjni. I have heard all the speakers you list and then some. Been doing this for fifty years. I posted not to long ago that exotic dome tweeters that cost more than gold can be very good but the common fabric or metal domes in most speakers distort. I got hate mail because I said they distort. I stand by what I say. Read the post that Rory just made. He echo's my thoughts on these new Emotiva tweeters. The tweeters I have been living with for the last seventeen years are samarium cobalt tweeters that extend to 70,000 hz and bells sound incredible on them. It actually freaks you out how they fill the room with strings and bells but they are not as smooth with the full range highs that I get from my Airmotiv's. I have a feeling others will discover this. AS a side note. I preferred the 3/4" soft dome tweeters on my ADS speakers over the EMIT on my Kappa 9's. I appreciate your opinion and will leave at that, i.e. your opinion. I had the Sigma driven by the orginal Classé Omega on a room where I spent over 10k on acoustic treatments, including some 2k for an acoustic engineer. It was far better than my AM 5s when it comes to tweeter performance. That is of course, just my opinion. I am happy for ! I love to see people enjoy there gear. Here is the deal. You do not have to spend a lot to get good sound. Anyone reading this, if you get some of Emotiva's new Airmotiv speakers and there new BasX gear to go with it you will blow all us old timers with there big dollar old gear away with price for performance. That's a fact jack !  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 13:57:31 GMT -5
I think it means its flat at 37 hz and rolls off at the top end That is strange, you mean that the 37Hz point is louder than any point up to the drop of 6dB's at the high end? I've never experienced a speaker like that. |
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Post by qdtjni on Aug 26, 2016 13:59:11 GMT -5
I appreciate your opinion and will leave at that, i.e. your opinion. I had the Sigma driven by the orginal Classé Omega on a room where I spent over 10k on acoustic treatments, including some 2k for an acoustic engineer. It was far better than my AM 5s when it comes to tweeter performance. That is of course, just my opinion. I am happy for ! I love to see people enjoy there gear. Here is the deal. You do not have to spend a lot to get good sound. Anyone reading this, if you get some of Emotiva's new Airmotiv speakers and there new BasX gear to go with it you will blow all us old timers with there big dollar old gear away with price for performance. That's a fact jack ! Totally agree!👍 On that topic, Denon 103R is an awesome MC cartridge for decent money. |
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Post by garbulky on Aug 26, 2016 14:15:25 GMT -5
I think it means its flat at 37 hz and rolls off at the top end That is strange, you mean that the 37Hz point is louder than any point up to the drop of 6dB's at the high end? I've never experienced a speaker like that. No I think it means the highest frequency is 6 db softer from flat 0 db. Louder than any point up to the drop means that 37 hz is plus so many db |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 14:17:15 GMT -5
@ Chuckie: No I did not use auto setup or a RS meter, I simply compared them to my (1 working) Pro Ac Clones that I built. Played around a bit with EQ is about it. Again just a quick comparison.
@ bluemeanies: Not sure if I think they should have never entered speakers, but I *most definitely* believe electronics is what they do best, and at the best price point! I own said UPA500, 2 XPA 5s, the UMC-1, and a Shearbourn PT7020A. I wouldn't dream these would be as good for critical listening as say, my electrostats (basement HT), but that's not really my issue. I'm just having a hard time believing a single SS8545, in a mini t-line, has more authority in the kick drum range than the two 6's in the T1. btw, t-lines are not exactly known for their 'punch'. Just to get back to my original thoughts, normally given my building background, I'd just pad the mid, and live with the compromise, but the T1 is already at 88dB, and this would make it all the more quiet. Plus, and this is my biggest, I don't know if I trust the woofers to take the make-up gain that would be required. IDK, I've got thirty days, and as mentioned, a potential buyer (god I hope he really likes them) *crosses fingers* One good thing is that he uses two subs while listening to music, so that's very encouraging. OK, so how in fact were the T1's played back by the preamp? Were they flat, were the other Pro Ac Clone speakers flat? A quick comparison. Played around a bit with EQ is about it. I'm somewhat suspicious that you didn't take the time to do a fair/balanced comparison by making sure the T1's were reproducing a relatively flat in room response and the output of the two speakers were identical in volume. Were the speakers side by side and out away from the walls. I don't know if I trust the woofers to take the make-up gain that would be required. If the mids are too loud for the bass one does not raise the gain on the woofers to even things out but lower the mids to match. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 14:18:49 GMT -5
That is strange, you mean that the 37Hz point is louder than any point up to the drop of 6dB's at the high end? I've never experienced a speaker like that. No I think it means the highest frequency is 6 db softer from flat 0 db. Louder than any point up to the drop means that 37 hz is plus so many db What  ?? |
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