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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 14, 2017 15:51:29 GMT -5
...it sounds like you will mainly be using the sub for music and the occasional movie or TV. As such, room pressurization, smoothed out bass response, etc, etc, is not really the goal.... And this is the first time EVER that I've heard such. Where did you get the idea that smooth bass response / room pressurization is NOT a goal for music? |
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Post by pknaz on Mar 14, 2017 18:52:35 GMT -5
The decision is not an easy one for several reasons. In looking at all the posts and your response, it sounds like you will mainly be using the sub for music and the occasional movie or TV. As such, room pressurization, smoothed out bass response, etc, etc, is not really the goal. With music, you are looking to augment the low end of the smaller speakers for a 2.1 system. Bear is mind that HSU makes two types of speakers; horn loaded and bass reflex. The bass reflex will give you a much more open sound and better mid-bass versus the horns; which are very location dependent (read location sensitive). The sub then would be used to blend in at a given crossover (AVR or miniDSP). For music, a faster sub is desirable and sealed will give you much better (lower) in room response below the rated specs versus ported. As to your original question, I hope you are seeing that for music, dual (multiple) subs are rarely used; unless you're in a live venue. Rather, a good quality sub that fits within your budget placed accordingly will yield much more accurate results. In addition to the BasX line that you are looking at, you may want to consider Rythmik Audio and their F12 line. It's in the same price range but far tighter and more accurate; while still serving its' purpose for HT use. HT is another animal entirely and in that scenario, multiple subs are not just good, but a requirement. Once again, you have to be honest with yourself and see what you do most and cater to that. Good luck and happy listening. I would argue the exact opposite of this. For music, you don't want peaky response with huge fluctuations in response (as much as 20-30db in some rooms). Multiple subs, IMHO, are more important for music listening than for HT. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 14, 2017 18:58:26 GMT -5
The decision is not an easy one for several reasons. In looking at all the posts and your response, it sounds like you will mainly be using the sub for music and the occasional movie or TV. As such, room pressurization, smoothed out bass response, etc, etc, is not really the goal. With music, you are looking to augment the low end of the smaller speakers for a 2.1 system. Bear is mind that HSU makes two types of speakers; horn loaded and bass reflex. The bass reflex will give you a much more open sound and better mid-bass versus the horns; which are very location dependent (read location sensitive). The sub then would be used to blend in at a given crossover (AVR or miniDSP). For music, a faster sub is desirable and sealed will give you much better (lower) in room response below the rated specs versus ported. As to your original question, I hope you are seeing that for music, dual (multiple) subs are rarely used; unless you're in a live venue. Rather, a good quality sub that fits within your budget placed accordingly will yield much more accurate results. In addition to the BasX line that you are looking at, you may want to consider Rythmik Audio and their F12 line. It's in the same price range but far tighter and more accurate; while still serving its' purpose for HT use. HT is another animal entirely and in that scenario, multiple subs are not just good, but a requirement. Once again, you have to be honest with yourself and see what you do most and cater to that. Good luck and happy listening. You are stating nulls and peaks are not an issue when listening to music? |
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hemster
Global Moderator 
Particle Manufacturer
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Post by hemster on Mar 14, 2017 19:16:10 GMT -5
The decision is not an easy one for several reasons. In looking at all the posts and your response, it sounds like you will mainly be using the sub for music and the occasional movie or TV. As such, room pressurization, smoothed out bass response, etc, etc, is not really the goal. With music, you are looking to augment the low end of the smaller speakers for a 2.1 system. Bear is mind that HSU makes two types of speakers; horn loaded and bass reflex. The bass reflex will give you a much more open sound and better mid-bass versus the horns; which are very location dependent (read location sensitive). The sub then would be used to blend in at a given crossover (AVR or miniDSP). For music, a faster sub is desirable and sealed will give you much better (lower) in room response below the rated specs versus ported. As to your original question, I hope you are seeing that for music, dual (multiple) subs are rarely used; unless you're in a live venue. Rather, a good quality sub that fits within your budget placed accordingly will yield much more accurate results. In addition to the BasX line that you are looking at, you may want to consider Rythmik Audio and their F12 line. It's in the same price range but far tighter and more accurate; while still serving its' purpose for HT use. HT is another animal entirely and in that scenario, multiple subs are not just good, but a requirement. Once again, you have to be honest with yourself and see what you do most and cater to that. Good luck and happy listening. You are stating nulls and peaks are not an issue when listening to music? I must've missed reading where he stated that... Perhaps you can elucidate? |
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Post by vcautokid on Mar 14, 2017 19:17:56 GMT -5
HSU makes a killer sub, and I've always admired their offerings, so this is a tough choice. The ULS-15 probably will not outgun a pair of BasX S12, even though its driver does have more displacement, because it is a sealed system. I have a friend with the ULS-15 first-generation unit, which had an XBL^2 driver (a variation on an underhung motor design) and it is a very clean sub. I would love to sell you on the Emotiva product but I myself would have a hard time with the decision, because the ULS-15 has some extra features that the BasX line doesn't (in order to keep cost down), including adjustable Q (good for room integration) and a driver that has very long excursion, a cast frame, and shorting rings. It may be the better sub for musical applications by a slim margin. If our Airmotiv S15 were available (it's coming soon; just waiting for new linear-hybrid Class D amplifier parts to arrive - long story) then I'd steer you in that direction instead of the HSU, because it has about the same amplifier power and uses passive radiator loading which is tuned to provide a compromise between sealed and vented 'sound' through an overdamped enclosure alignment. Right on Rory. I met Dr. Poh Hsu personally, and he and his wife are nice as can be. There products solid too. I had an HSU as my first sub. I love my SVS better now, but HSU is a heavy hitter here no doubt about it. |
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Post by knucklehead on Mar 14, 2017 19:28:46 GMT -5
I'd get two of these and call it a day! The SVS SB12-NSD is perfect for music and works good for movies. I have a single that I use when the Yamaha isn't in pure direct mode which shuts off all DSP processing and sends a full frequency signal to the song towers.
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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 14, 2017 19:31:33 GMT -5
You are stating nulls and peaks are not an issue when listening to music? I must've missed reading where he stated that... Perhaps you can elucidate? Check out the sentence that begins with, "Rather" |
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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 14, 2017 19:33:06 GMT -5
I must've missed reading where he stated that... Perhaps you can elucidate? Check out the sentence that begins with, "Rather" Since when did a single sub do a better job of eliminating peaks and nulls than multiple subs? |
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Post by gus4emo on Mar 14, 2017 19:33:39 GMT -5
The decision is not an easy one for several reasons. In looking at all the posts and your response, it sounds like you will mainly be using the sub for music and the occasional movie or TV. As such, room pressurization, smoothed out bass response, etc, etc, is not really the goal. With music, you are looking to augment the low end of the smaller speakers for a 2.1 system. Bear is mind that HSU makes two types of speakers; horn loaded and bass reflex. The bass reflex will give you a much more open sound and better mid-bass versus the horns; which are very location dependent (read location sensitive). The sub then would be used to blend in at a given crossover (AVR or miniDSP). For music, a faster sub is desirable and sealed will give you much better (lower) in room response below the rated specs versus ported. As to your original question, I hope you are seeing that for music, dual (multiple) subs are rarely used; unless you're in a live venue. Rather, a good quality sub that fits within your budget placed accordingly will yield much more accurate results. In addition to the BasX line that you are looking at, you may want to consider Rythmik Audio and their F12 line. It's in the same price range but far tighter and more accurate; while still serving its' purpose for HT use. HT is another animal entirely and in that scenario, multiple subs are not just good, but a requirement. Once again, you have to be honest with yourself and see what you do most and cater to that. Good luck and happy listening. I would argue the exact opposite of this. For music, you don't want peaky response with huge fluctuations in response (as much as 20-30db in some rooms). Multiple subs, IMHO, are more important for music listening than for HT. Agreed. |
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Post by gus4emo on Mar 14, 2017 19:37:01 GMT -5
Check out the sentence that begins with, "Rather" Since when did a single sub do a better job of eliminating peaks and nulls than multiple subs? Some subs have room correction, and according to placement and the room itself, can do wonders. .. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 14, 2017 19:37:01 GMT -5
Check out the sentence that begins with, "Rather" Since when did a single sub do a better job of eliminating peaks and nulls than multiple subs? Then again I don't believe I accused him of saying that, ergo the question mark. |
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hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,950
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Post by hemster on Mar 14, 2017 19:38:09 GMT -5
Check out the sentence that begins with, "Rather" Since when did a single sub do a better job of eliminating peaks and nulls than multiple subs? I still don't see where he stated a single sub does a better job of eliminating peaks and nulls than multiple subs. I would advise the OP to wait for the Airmotiv subs coming soon. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 14, 2017 19:39:19 GMT -5
Since when did a single sub do a better job of eliminating peaks and nulls than multiple subs? Some subs have room correction, and according to placement and the room itself, can do wonders. .. Better than multiple subs with room correction and placement? Hemster, notice the question mark. |
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Post by gus4emo on Mar 14, 2017 19:51:26 GMT -5
Some subs have room correction, and according to placement and the room itself, can do wonders. .. Better than multiple subs with room correction and placement? Hemster, notice the question mark. Just what is the size of the room, multiple subs just to have multiple subs? |
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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 14, 2017 19:57:38 GMT -5
Better than multiple subs with room correction and placement? Hemster, notice the question mark. Just what is the size of the room, multiple subs just to have multiple subs? Multiple subs to even out peaks and nulls that single subs tend to create. I believe in general smaller drivers are quicker and therefore more responsive than larger drivers. |
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Post by pedrocols on Mar 14, 2017 20:44:40 GMT -5
Just what is the size of the room, multiple subs just to have multiple subs? Multiple subs to even out peaks and nulls that single subs tend to create. I believe in general smaller drivers are quicker and therefore more responsive than larger drivers. Disagreed with the latter. However, dual subs in my experience worked better in my room than a single one. I started with a single 8" and later added a second 8". Later I sold the two 8"s after getting a 15" sub. It was not until I added a second 15" that my desire to keep looking for subs really stop. I now run dual stereo subs. Not summed or mono but true stereo. One sub for the left channel and one for the right channel. |
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Post by gus4emo on Mar 14, 2017 20:56:01 GMT -5
Multiple subs to even out peaks and nulls that single subs tend to create. I believe in general smaller drivers are quicker and therefore more responsive than larger drivers. Disagreed with the latter. However, dual subs in my experience worked better in my room than a single one. I started with a single 8" and later added a second 8". Later I sold the two 8"s after getting a 15" sub. It was not until I added a second 15" that my desire to keep looking for subs really stop. I now run dual stereo subs. Not summed or mono but true stereo. One sub for the left channel and one for the right channel. Now that's more like it. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 15, 2017 10:45:06 GMT -5
...I believe in general smaller drivers are quicker and therefore more responsive than larger drivers. One would think so, but in practice, my experience is that the design can overcome the inherently higher mass of larger cones. I once had a Definitive Technology Trinity that, I think, used 13" drivers. It was the "fastest" sounding sub that I've heard. Better than any of the 8" Klipsch, Polk, etc. products that I've heard. So there's more to it than moving mass. A muscular amplifier with feedback can make a HUGE driver sound like a very agile driver. An inert cabinet that doesn't "sing along with the driver" will also go a long way to making a sub sound "fast." I don't think that one can make a blanket statement like "smaller drivers are quicker." It's more complex than that. Cordially - Boom |
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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 15, 2017 11:15:57 GMT -5
...I believe in general smaller drivers are quicker and therefore more responsive than larger drivers. One would think so, but in practice, my experience is that the design can overcome the inherently higher mass of larger cones. I once had a Definitive Technology Trinity that, I think, used 13" drivers. It was the "fastest" sounding sub that I've heard. Better than any of the 8" Klipsch, Polk, etc. products that I've heard. So there's more to it than moving mass. A muscular amplifier with feedback can make a HUGE driver sound like a very agile driver. An inert cabinet that doesn't "sing along with the driver" will also go a long way to making a sub sound "fast." I don't think that one can make a blanket statement like "smaller drivers are quicker." It's more complex than that. Cordially - Boom Thanks Boom, that is why my statement said in general. I am not disputing that a single sub can do music well. My understanding, which is often flawed, is that multiple subs often do a better job of mitigating the vagaries of a rooms acoustics in a dollar for dollar comparison. |
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Post by millst on Mar 15, 2017 11:57:56 GMT -5
Some numbers for thought. Emotiva is a great value, but I doubt the S12 is giving you PB2000 performance for half the price. Also, I was very generous bumping the output level 6dB for the additional PB2000. If you think there is a less than zero chance that you will want more performance, I'd recommend getting one higher quality sub now. Then, you can add another later. If you buy two entry level subs, then it's more difficult to upgrade since you need to replace both (or jump to 4 WAF permitting). -tm Attachments:
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