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Post by goozoo on Mar 15, 2017 13:52:29 GMT -5
To clarify my earlier post, and have some people chill out, I was not stating that nulls, peaks, etc are not important in music listening. Furthermore, I would be the first to acknowledge the measured benefits of multiple subs (I have 4 running in my HT). That being said, we each have our own taste and way of how we like to listen to music. As the current voting on the original post suggests, some prefer a single larger sub, while others multiple subs. The fact remains that most people who spend 60-70% of their listening time with music, typically tend to listen without filters or some other sort of room EQ, and not always with the sub active; although with the bookshelves the OP is looking at probably not the case. Depending on the size and acoustics of the space, he may like the sound with a single larger sub like the HSU, or not. Either way, I feel it provides a better starting point that he can build off of over time. To each his own.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 15:43:25 GMT -5
At 25Hz, the BasX S12 performed 2.2 dB better than the SVS SB2000 in my own competitive testing, using CEA2010 distortion limits. At 31.5Hz and above, and at 20 Hz (below tuned Fb) it was evenly matched, with less than 0.5dB difference.
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Post by pedrocols on Mar 15, 2017 15:49:16 GMT -5
Ok so I don't know about you but to me 105 db is loud as f##*.
I see you guys arguing about a few dbs when really how much difference does it make when spl is greater than 105 db inside a home!
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Post by goozoo on Mar 15, 2017 16:07:58 GMT -5
Ok so I don't know about you but to me 105 db is loud as f##*. I see you guys arguing about a few dbs when really how much difference does it make when spl is greater than 105 db inside a home! The 105dB mark is sometimes used as a "reference level" for sound, especially subs, as it hits a certain frequency range. What you have to keep in mind is that the dB scale is logarithmic, and thus a 1 dB gain is usually perceived as double the loudness. What gets really interesting is when you can reach these dB's at sub-sonic frequencies, like the fan-based subs which can hit these levels from 1Hz-20Hz! |
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 15, 2017 16:15:53 GMT -5
Ok so I don't know about you but to me 105 db is loud as f##*. I see you guys arguing about a few dbs when really how much difference does it make when spl is greater than 105 db inside a home! The 105dB mark is sometimes used as a "reference level" for sound, especially subs, as it hits a certain frequency range. What you have to keep in mind is that the dB scale is logarithmic, and thus a 1 dB gain is usually perceived as double the loudness; unless you're a bass head and then you need a 5dB gain to think it's louder. What gets really interesting is when you can reach these dB's at sub-sonic frequencies, like the fan-based subs which can hit these levels from 1Hz-20Hz! I thought a 10 db difference was perceived as twice as loud, not 1 db. |
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Post by geebo on Mar 15, 2017 16:49:32 GMT -5
The 105dB mark is sometimes used as a "reference level" for sound, especially subs, as it hits a certain frequency range. What you have to keep in mind is that the dB scale is logarithmic, and thus a 1 dB gain is usually perceived as double the loudness; unless you're a bass head and then you need a 5dB gain to think it's louder. What gets really interesting is when you can reach these dB's at sub-sonic frequencies, like the fan-based subs which can hit these levels from 1Hz-20Hz! I thought a 10 db difference was perceived as twice as loud, not 1 db. That's always what I've heard. And a 3 dB increase requires a doubling of power but gives only a small increase in perceived loudness. |
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Post by goozoo on Mar 15, 2017 17:03:12 GMT -5
Sorry for the typo. Late night. It should read "... a 10dB gain would be perceived as twice the loudness, and a bass head would need a 15dB gain to think it's louder".
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Post by pknaz on Mar 15, 2017 17:28:21 GMT -5
I'd be curios to know why some people prefer a single sub over two? What advantages do you see in this configuration?
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Post by pedrocols on Mar 15, 2017 20:45:16 GMT -5
I'd be curios to know why some people prefer a single sub over two? What advantages do you see in this configuration? You will soon find out. |
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Mar 15, 2017 21:35:44 GMT -5
I'd be curios to know why some people prefer a single sub over two? What advantages do you see in this configuration? Perhaps the proponents of a single sub can take solace in the fact that they don't have to worry about integrating multiple subs (this can potentially be time consuming). Interesting that the vote is split down the middle, 15 each for single or dual subs.. |
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Post by garbulky on Mar 16, 2017 0:01:10 GMT -5
I'd be curios to know why some people prefer a single sub over two? What advantages do you see in this configuration? I've heard the differences between a dual and single sub in the same room. Each sub was imo a powerful and up to the task for the room by its own. They were PSA XV15's. But that dual sub made a difference. The sound field was more immersive. The instruments had more body and were more precisely placed in the soundstage. I also could localize the dual subs less. (No, the cross over wasn't too high in the single sub test). With the single sub test, I felt that there was coverage in the bottom octaves and tons of power. With the dual sub test, it wasn't about power. But the improvement was noticeable. When integrated well that listening setup was right up there with the top three or so best sound I have ever heard - all tied for first place more or less. No hesitation. That sense of placement and huge amounts of detail and lifelike presence really sealed the deal. With the single sub test .... it wasn't right up there with THE best though it still sounded very nice. When I heard the dual subs, I was sold pretty much instantly. At the time I had never heard things sound so real. The setup was Oppo 105, XSP-1, XPA-1 L, Axiom M80, Dual PSA XV15 running in stereo mode and room treatments. |
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Post by millst on Mar 16, 2017 11:11:46 GMT -5
At 25Hz, the BasX S12 performed 2.2 dB better than the SVS SB2000 in my own competitive testing, using CEA2010 distortion limits. At 31.5Hz and above, and at 20 Hz (below tuned Fb) it was evenly matched, with less than 0.5dB difference. Not surprising. The SB2000 is cheaper than the PB2000 and its output levels are significantly less, especially at the lower end. The sealed alignment would likely have advantages in phase, group delay, ringing, etc. -tm |
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Post by millst on Mar 16, 2017 11:15:49 GMT -5
The 105dB mark is sometimes used as a "reference level" for sound, especially subs, as it hits a certain frequency range. This is wrong. Subs need to hit 115dB for reference level. The 105dB mark is for the other channels. If your other channels are configured at small, which is almost always recommended, then your sub could be called on to put out even more due to the redirected bass. 105db and higher might sound like a lot, but that is for peaks. The average level is much lower (~85dB). Also, 115dB of bass isn't really that crazy as our ears are much less sensitive to those frequencies. -tm |
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Post by pedrocols on Mar 16, 2017 13:52:01 GMT -5
The 105dB mark is sometimes used as a "reference level" for sound, especially subs, as it hits a certain frequency range. This is wrong. Subs need to hit 115dB for reference level. The 105dB mark is for the other channels. If your other channels are configured at small, which is almost always recommended, then your sub could be called on to put out even more due to the redirected bass. 105db and higher might sound like a lot, but that is for peaks. The average level is much lower (~85dB). Also, 115dB of bass isn't really that crazy as our ears are much less sensitive to those frequencies. -tm 115 dbs? You really think that isn't loud? |
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Post by cgramer on Mar 16, 2017 16:22:07 GMT -5
The fact remains that most people who spend 60-70% of their listening time with music, typically tend to listen without filters or some other sort of room EQ, and not always with the sub active; although with the bookshelves the OP is looking at probably not the case. This is true. I hadn't planned on getting into the weeds of room correction, adjusting for delays, etc. I just wanted a system that's simple, so the Hsu high-pass filter box (again, not their Bass Optimizer box, even though the HPF box apparently says "Bass Optimizer" on it since they just modify that one to create the HPF box) to blend the speakers and sub(s) was about as far as I wanted to go. This seems like eminently sensible advice. If I do eventually decide to add another sub, I could also then explore getting a miniDSP and REW and all that jazz. So it looks like, despite the fact that I initially voted for two BasX subs, I'll go for a single ULS-15 MK2 and maybe add another later. :-) Thanks everyone for contributing to the discussion, and helping me decide on my new gear. Can't wait to pull the trigger. Chris |
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Post by millst on Mar 16, 2017 16:34:33 GMT -5
115 dbs? You really think that isn't loud? For bass? Not at all. For mids/highs? No, thanks. That can cause hearing damage in seconds to minutes. That doesn't stop bars, clubs, concerts, etc. from doing it all the time. If you disagree, that's why there's a volume knob at home. -tm |
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Post by geebo on Mar 16, 2017 16:38:41 GMT -5
The fact remains that most people who spend 60-70% of their listening time with music, typically tend to listen without filters or some other sort of room EQ, and not always with the sub active; although with the bookshelves the OP is looking at probably not the case. This is true. I hadn't planned on getting into the weeds of room correction, adjusting for delays, etc. I just wanted a system that's simple, so the Hsu high-pass filter box (again, not their Bass Optimizer box, even though the HPF box apparently says "Bass Optimizer" on it since they just modify that one to create the HPF box) to blend the speakers and sub(s) were about as far as I wanted to go. This seems like eminently sensible advice. If I do eventually decide to add another sub, I could also then explore getting a miniDSP and REW and all that jazz. So it looks like, despite the fact that I initially voted for two BasX subs, I'll go for a single ULS-15 MK2 and maybe add another later. :-) Thanks everyone for contributing to the discussion, and helping me decide on my new gear. Can't wait to pull the trigger. Chris That's what I did. But I only waited about 3 weeks to get the second one. HSU will give you 30 days to buy a second one at the pair pricing. |
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Post by pedrocols on Mar 16, 2017 16:42:57 GMT -5
115 dbs? You really think that isn't loud? For bass? Not at all. For mids/highs? No, thanks. That can cause hearing damage in seconds to minutes. That doesn't stop bars, clubs, concerts, etc. from doing it all the time. If you disagree, that's why there's a volume knob at home. -tm There is also a police station. |
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Post by cgramer on Apr 24, 2017 10:18:52 GMT -5
This seems like eminently sensible advice. If I do eventually decide to add another sub, I could also then explore getting a miniDSP and REW and all that jazz. So it looks like, despite the fact that I initially voted for two BasX subs, I'll go for a single ULS-15 MK2 and maybe add another later. :-) OK, I finally heard my friend's 7.1 HB-1 MK2/ULS-15 MK2 system in action, and I think I've changed my mind. For the music I listen to, and the type of bass I'm looking for (that "chest punch" feeling from the kick drum), I think I may want to go with a ported sub instead. Also, I had no idea how much bass the ULS-15 MK2 could produce, and I don't know if I need *quite* that much. Thinking of the Hsu VTF-2 MK5 now instead. Or maybe something like the AirMotiv S10 or BasX S12. As for the HB-1 MK2s, I loved them. Extremely clear, great mids, nice soundstage. Now if I could just decide on a sub. Chris |
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Post by vneal on Apr 24, 2017 10:44:18 GMT -5
I would choose neither
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