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Post by 405x5 on Jan 6, 2018 18:16:58 GMT -5
One thing here is crystal clear....you just keep hammering troll without knowing what a troll is,
You should look it up.
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Post by RichGuy on Jan 6, 2018 18:28:22 GMT -5
One thing here is crystal clear....you just keep hammering troll without knowing what a troll is, You should look it up. I'd prefer if you'd stop doing it, enough said, I am done feeding the troll. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 6, 2018 18:51:58 GMT -5
One thing here is crystal clear....you just keep hammering troll without knowing what a troll is, You should look it up. I'd prefer if you'd stop doing it, enough said, I am done feeding the troll. I see you have yet to consult the dictionary...if you had done so you.....you would have quit tossing that word around by now |
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Post by DavidR on Jan 6, 2018 19:18:22 GMT -5
Rich guy said: “Someday you will learn how to use the quote feature properly.” It’s workin just fine! But getting through to you well, that’s something else. Geez! I simply disagreed with you about your need for a power conditioner scenario. I’m no troll, no not at all and Instead of debating it in an intelligent manner, you went out looking for something that you thought would piss me off. (I should be impressed) and it doesn’t. Roy Allison was a genius and his years of research regarding interaction of listening rooms and loudspeakers is still highly regarded by audio engineers. The point of that being, gimmicks were never part of his designs, and others here who are acquainted with Roy Allison could tell you this. Ever heard of AR?? Bill +1000 on Roy Allison Roy also designed several tweeters and mids that are still spectacular. RDL, RA Labs and Allison speakers along with his genius at AR will live long in audio lore. Roy AllisonBTW, are you ready to sell me those 20's?  |
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Post by leonski on Jan 6, 2018 20:25:04 GMT -5
A comparison to your rants on what you feel as an unnecessary expense, as I said I feel the same about the remote controlled image control in your speakers as you do cables. I guess if there were threads about the remote controlled image control speakers I'd need to go rant in those threads just as you do in all threads about cables. I'm going to compare, for arguments sake the XMC and the Allison IC 20 as components. BOTH are high end products and BOTH have features that not everyone will use, for one reason or another. Yes the IC 20's have an image control system......but you could not get those speakers without taking the image control. (The included imaging was a negligible expense in the context of the entire systems.) With the exception of ATMOS, you take the XMC with everything that comes with that component also..........just use what you want. I bought the IC 20's because they are a 20 driver array. They have the timbre I'm happy with and put some serious DB output into a room, using 400 watts per channel amplification. However, those systems are used in a surround system and I control the imaging (as many do here) with a very potent center channel, leaving the image control always off. I don't use the included image control system, was never interested in that....an equitable trade off. (you never asked) Your use of the term "troll" indicates you have know idea what it is, so I will educate you............ The term "troll" refers to someone who disrupts a thread (or conversation) for the sake of disruption, and nothing else. We used to experience them in the CB world, breaking into a conversation and being disruptive.......we would pretend they weren't there and/ or discreetly move to another channel to pick up the conversation when possible. When I come to the forum, I always start, (as most do) with "Newest Threads" and look to follow and participate in any that interest me. If I disagree with something, I will say so like everyone else. Most are magnanimous about that, but some are not. Bill I'll bet 50 Pesos, Cash Money that this 'image control' in a 20 driver array is problematic, anyway, due to comb filtering and other effects. And that the 'control' is a phase control. Ingeniously implimeted, maybe, but just that. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 6, 2018 20:34:45 GMT -5
Rich guy said: “Someday you will learn how to use the quote feature properly.” It’s workin just fine! But getting through to you well, that’s something else. Geez! I simply disagreed with you about your need for a power conditioner scenario. I’m no troll, no not at all and Instead of debating it in an intelligent manner, you went out looking for something that you thought would piss me off. (I should be impressed) and it doesn’t. Roy Allison was a genius and his years of research regarding interaction of listening rooms and loudspeakers is still highly regarded by audio engineers. The point of that being, gimmicks were never part of his designs, and others here who are acquainted with Roy Allison could tell you this. Ever heard of AR?? Bill "+1000 on Roy Allison Roy also designed several tweeters and mids that are still spectacular. RDL, RA Labs and Allison speakers along with his genius at AR will live long in audio lore. Roy AllisonBTW, are you ready to sell me those 20's? " Hi David, Yes! Those tweeters and mids you refer to are not only spectacular, but unpatented. I believe Roy was not concerned about that because it was so difficult to replicate them according to his original spec. that the patent just never happened. He was correct and they were never replicated. Indeed a great loss. Roy was awesome. He knew that Original pair was in my possession and was happy to know they were held by somebody who would care for them and keep 'em going. I'm obligated to pass them to my Daughter (she would have gotten the A1's....now she gets these instead) Should she tell me to forget it.....you'll be the first one to know (you've been after me for years now.....right?) Regards, Bill |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 6, 2018 21:01:48 GMT -5
"I'll bet 50 Pesos, Cash Money that this 'image control' in a 20 driver array is problematic, anyway, due to comb filtering and other effects. And that the 'control' is a phase control. Ingeniously implimeted, maybe, but just that." Actually No........not comb filtering at all or other effects or phase control. The image control works like this: (unlike the review impressions) First off, the woofers are not involved in the image system at all. The woofers are installed in the cabs. in a push pull configuration, with one of the woofers inverted. The purpose of that was to reduce even order distortion, and at the time they were reviewed the distortion for low frequency response was one of the lowest that had ever been measured in a loudspeaker. They are wired in phase, however with the inversion, they are mechanically, OUT of phase. Now the image control is a module, separate from the crossover network, and is a system of relays tied into a power supply that attenuates the vertical (not horizontal) mid range and tweeter arrays (2 mids and 2 tweets) on each panel to either near full output on the outer panels, or near full on the inner panels and that, tightens the imaging focus at the sweet spot. Or, run in what was referred to as the "Omni position" full output of both inner and outboard panels. Omni is the default mode which is where the modules go when no power is running to them. Regardless of the setting, the DB output of the system remains a constant. Bill |
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Post by DavidR on Jan 6, 2018 21:46:25 GMT -5
+1000 on Roy Allison Roy also designed several tweeters and mids that are still spectacular. RDL, RA Labs and Allison speakers along with his genius at AR will live long in audio lore. Roy AllisonBTW, are you ready to sell me those 20's? " Hi David, Yes! Those tweeters and mids you refer to are not only spectacular, but unpatented. I believe Roy was not concerned about that because it was so difficult to replicate them according to his original spec. that the patent just never happened. He was correct and they were never replicated. Indeed a great loss. Roy was awesome. He knew that Original pair was in my possession and was happy to know they were held by somebody who would care for them and keep 'em going. I'm obligated to pass them to my Daughter (she would have gotten the A1's....now she gets these instead) Should she tell me to forget it.....you'll be the first one to know (you've been after me for years now.....right?) Regards, Bill I never expect you to give them up. I'd be like me letting my AR90 and AR91's go. I keep looking for a NICE pair of Allison Two but usually they are not well taken care of IF you can find them. I'd have better luck finding a unicorn vs IC20 speakers. My son will get my gear beyond what I've given him already. I keep looking for a pair of AR9 that aren't too far from me. I'm using my 91's with a Bob Latino VTA-120 I bought from Audiobill. Jazz on vinyl never sounded so good. As a matter of fact I'm going back int the crossovers and replacing the series caps with high-end Clarity and some good bypass caps. Enjoy the 20's and make sure your daughter knows exactly what she is getting. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 6, 2018 22:08:26 GMT -5
Hi David, Yes! Those tweeters and mids you refer to are not only spectacular, but unpatented. I believe Roy was not concerned about that because it was so difficult to replicate them according to his original spec. that the patent just never happened. He was correct and they were never replicated. Indeed a great loss. Roy was awesome. He knew that Original pair was in my possession and was happy to know they were held by somebody who would care for them and keep 'em going. I'm obligated to pass them to my Daughter (she would have gotten the A1's....now she gets these instead) Should she tell me to forget it.....you'll be the first one to know (you've been after me for years now.....right?) Regards, Bill I never expect you to give them up. I'd be like me letting my AR90 and AR91's go. I keep looking for a NICE pair of Allison Two but usually they are not well taken care of IF you can find them. I'd have better luck finding a unicorn vs IC20 speakers. My son will get my gear beyond what I've given him already. I keep looking for a pair of AR9 that aren't too far from me. I'm using my 91's with a Bob Latino VTA-120 I bought from Audiobill. Jazz on vinyl never sounded so good. As a matter of fact I'm going back int the crossovers and replacing the series caps with high-end Clarity and some good bypass caps. Enjoy the 20's and make sure your daughter knows exactly what she is getting. Thank you! The 9’s are a tough, but not an impossible find if geography works in your favor ( I would not want those puppies shipped) You may recall I grabbed a rental truck and took a day trip to Mass. in order to grab my prizes. The Rental guys were great and knew what I was up to, saving the better of the two trucks on the lot for my trip. I haven’t seen Audiobill around here for a while is he around? Bill |
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Post by novisnick on Jan 6, 2018 22:13:11 GMT -5
I never expect you to give them up. I'd be like me letting my AR90 and AR91's go. I keep looking for a NICE pair of Allison Two but usually they are not well taken care of IF you can find them. I'd have better luck finding a unicorn vs IC20 speakers. My son will get my gear beyond what I've given him already. I keep looking for a pair of AR9 that aren't too far from me. I'm using my 91's with a Bob Latino VTA-120 I bought from Audiobill. Jazz on vinyl never sounded so good. As a matter of fact I'm going back int the crossovers and replacing the series caps with high-end Clarity and some good bypass caps. Enjoy the 20's and make sure your daughter knows exactly what she is getting. Thank you! The 9’s are a tough, but not an impossible find if geography works in your favor ( I would not want those puppies shipped) You may recall I grabbed a rental truck and took a day trip to Mass. in order to grab my prizes. The Rental guys were great and knew what I was up to, saving the better of the two trucks on the lot for my trip. I haven’t seen Audiobill around here for a while is he around? Bill pokes his head in every now and then but Im guessing hes been busy. Ask about tubes or tube amps and He Will Magically appear! LOL |
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Post by leonski on Jan 6, 2018 22:21:40 GMT -5
Push / Pull woofer into a single enclousre is I think called 'Isobaric'. The pressure in the 'enclosure' remains constant.
Some advantages and DISadvantages with this configuration.
As for the descrioption of relays and the rest? Doesn't really say anything about what it does. I looked up a photo of the IC-20 and see what must have been at least one of the design goals. Broad dispersion.
With multiple drivers producing the same frequency band, it is impossible to avoid comb filtering. That might be one 'edge' to a line source, a L/R motion of your head doesn't interact the same way if the speaker were spread horizontally.
It has something to do with the size of the driver, the spacing between them and the frequency of operation. I think that at some point, as spacing gets larger and frequency rises (shorter wavelength) drivers being seeming to be individual, not a 'blend'.
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 6, 2018 22:27:05 GMT -5
Thank you! The 9’s are a tough, but not an impossible find if geography works in your favor ( I would not want those puppies shipped) You may recall I grabbed a rental truck and took a day trip to Mass. in order to grab my prizes. The Rental guys were great and knew what I was up to, saving the better of the two trucks on the lot for my trip. I haven’t seen Audiobill around here for a while is he around? Bill pokes his head in every now and then but Im guessing hes been busy. Ask about tubes or tube amps and He Will Magically appear! LOL The guy must be making a killing at the moment with the tube renaissance.......good for him. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 6, 2018 22:57:23 GMT -5
Push / Pull woofer into a single enclousre is I think called 'Isobaric'. The pressure in the 'enclosure' remains constant. Some advantages and DISadvantages with this configuration. As for the descrioption of relays and the rest? Doesn't really say anything about what it does. I looked up a photo of the IC-20 and see what must have been at least one of the design goals. Broad dispersion. With multiple drivers producing the same frequency band, it is impossible to avoid comb filtering. That might be one 'edge' to a line source, a L/R motion of your head doesn't interact the same way if the speaker were spread horizontally. It has something to do with the size of the driver, the spacing between them and the frequency of operation. I think that at some point, as spacing gets larger and frequency rises (shorter wavelength) drivers being seeming to be individual, not a 'blend'. I have not heard the term isobaric used, but sure constant pressure. However, even order distortion is reduced because the woofer, now inverted is mechanically in phase with the other. That being said, employing a subwoofer reduces the benefit/need of this feature. Right again about broad dispersion as a design goal, just a continuation from the Allison:One, if you are familiar with that one and others....the models 4 and 2 additionally. Comb filtering is minimized in this vertical array configuration as you observed and the height of the arrays, putting the tweeters at near ear level when in a seated position. |
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Post by DavidR on Jan 6, 2018 23:27:09 GMT -5
Linn Briks use isobaric configuration. There are several configurations for isobaric set up. I sold mine for my AR90's. Both have great bass but I like the overall sound of AR speakers.  |
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Post by vcautokid on Jan 6, 2018 23:43:57 GMT -5
Wow, this thread has gotten a lot of traction. Sorry, I am just amused on what is really a simple question, and you get 173 replies and more. Just an observation, but sometimes these threads diverge in all directions. Just saying. You may resume your regularly scheduled program already in progress.
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Post by leonski on Jan 7, 2018 2:19:13 GMT -5
There exist a bunch of Isobaric enclosure types and variations.
Some are even ported. A friend of mine maybe 3 decades ago built a ported speaker where the woofer worked into a ported enclousre. But the port? was loaded into another sealed space which was ported to the room.
Got reasonable response down into the 30s (no lower) using an 8" Radio Shack woofer. Not technically isobaric, still very well done and from the speaker cookbook sold at RS, at the time a reasonable place for some decent DIY speaker drivers.
I don't offhand know the advantages OR disadvantages of such a configuration as any of the varieties of Isobaric, but they must exist. Measurables like distortion, sensitivity and power handling would all be considered.
If I were purchasing some vintage speakers? KLH9, Magnepan Tympani and MG20 would be on my list as well as original Braun TriAmp (active / 100 watts total per speaker) Model LV-1020 which to me was a jaw-dropper when I first heard 'em.
Maybe some Infinity IRS BETA. They were monsters and I suspect still have a following.
Doesn't JL also us an Isobaric design?
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Post by DavidR on Jan 7, 2018 9:33:14 GMT -5
Here are the various configs for isobaric >  I don't know if JBL ever built an isobaric speaker. MY APOLOGIES TO THE OP. HIS THREAD HAS BEEN TOTALLY HI-JACKED. |
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Post by audiobill on Jan 7, 2018 9:48:17 GMT -5
Hi Guys, just finishing up a pair of M125s as we speak!!!
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Post by Talley on Jan 7, 2018 10:45:45 GMT -5
There exist a bunch of Isobaric enclosure types and variations. Some are even ported. A friend of mine maybe 3 decades ago built a ported speaker where the woofer worked into a ported enclousre. But the port? was loaded into another sealed space which was ported to the room. Got reasonable response down into the 30s (no lower) using an 8" Radio Shack woofer. Not technically isobaric, still very well done and from the speaker cookbook sold at RS, at the time a reasonable place for some decent DIY speaker drivers. I don't offhand know the advantages OR disadvantages of such a configuration as any of the varieties of Isobaric, but they must exist. Measurables like distortion, sensitivity and power handling would all be considered. If I were purchasing some vintage speakers? KLH9, Magnepan Tympani and MG20 would be on my list as well as original Braun TriAmp (active / 100 watts total per speaker) Model LV-1020 which to me was a jaw-dropper when I first heard 'em. Maybe some Infinity IRS BETA. They were monsters and I suspect still have a following. Doesn't JL also us an Isobaric design? Don't forget the Vandersteen 5A's. My uncle used these for years before he moved them to his living room for his TV since he now uses the Apogee duetta signature II's for his main stereo.  |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 7, 2018 10:47:45 GMT -5
Here are the various configs for isobaric > I don't know if JBL ever built an isobaric speaker. MY APOLOGIES TO THE OP. HIS THREAD HAS BEEN TOTALLY HI-JACKED. The servo controlled sub. 🔊 driver has been used for years by Velodyne, primarily with the same goal as The isobaric, to reduce distortion in a relatively compact enclosure, utilizing one driver. Both are an effective means. Later on they raised the ante on the plate amp. Power output, NOT to increase the dB. but rather to make more power available to the servo mechanism. |
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