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Post by Bonzo on Jan 22, 2018 12:42:50 GMT -5
but it's not a sifi movie our right's have been getting striped for decades , but thats out of the context of this thread And what makes it even more sci-fi, is that just like those movies, there are actually people against me thinking I'm just being difficult for not going along with it. People aren't just being complacent to having their their options taken away, they are actually all for it. All to save a few dollars from their own pockets? Again I say, what ever. But you are right, once we start discussing that it's a slippery slope to what would basically become a political discussion, and that's not for this thread or even this forum really. |
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Post by wilburthegoose on Jan 22, 2018 13:00:11 GMT -5
Bonzo - to be honest, the fundamental reason for me is that there isn't any difference in sound quality. Granted, I never had a high-end Oppo player, but I find the DAC in the XMC-1 to work perfectly for me.
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Post by flamingeye on Jan 22, 2018 13:16:03 GMT -5
how do these company's decide on what is obsolete anyway , our government made analog Tv obsolete by demanding digital broadcasting by a certain date and freeing up the analog signals for others to use , but audio ? . I'm strictly HDMI except for the use of zones but I have many friends that still use the 7.1 analog . I wonder if there could be a outboard 7.1 like a phone amp does for when there is no phone input but again it being 7.1 would negate that option
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richb
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Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
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Post by richb on Jan 22, 2018 13:19:54 GMT -5
While I would love to see a 7.1 input option, the addition of USB DAC that supports DSD and multi-channel audio satifies many peoples requirements.
The XMC-1 DAC in does not sound the same to me and folks can prefer one over the other.
A two channel DAC option can be handled by the XLR input but even in that case, it would be nice if there were more than one.
I suspect the omition of the 7.1 inputs simplies the architecture and may result in better performance measurements.
- Rich
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Post by garbulky on Jan 22, 2018 13:52:44 GMT -5
I don't think so (7.1 input deletion). Personally, I don't see a need for them, and I'm guessing 98% of owners don't either. Well I find it interesting that the last couple Sound & Vision issues have complained basically about the same thing I am. And they even got feedback agreeing with them. So I'd be willing to say I think your 98% is not exactly accurate, and probably not even close. Of course that depends on who you ask. But this, like many other forums, is not really a good take on reality either. When you do a poll here you'd be lucky to get 50 votes, let alone even 100. I'm really not sure about the 7.1 inputs in terms of added cost (that could be complicated I dunno), but when it comes to 1 set of analog RCA outputs, no one is going to sell me that it really costs much to implement. No way. I'm not just disappointed with Emotiva, it's every where and every company (Actually with the XMC-1 Emotiva held on longer than others). And why do you really think that is? Because people don't want or need it? Nope, that's not it. It's the same reason it became against the law for manufactures to produce Blu-ray players with analog component outputs - to stop making it super easy for us consumers to make video recordings in the analog world. Once it's only available in the all digital world, they have control and we've lost our privileges. In the same way, they are slowly taking analog audio control away from us, and people are just going along with it like lemmings. Sooner than later, all we'll have is HDMI (or some future digital connection), and then analog will be over. It reminds me so much of sci-fi movies. People just let their rights float away and no one seems to even care. What ever. I agree with you on this: the standard for 2 channel PCM - SPDIF connectors and optical connectors are quickly going the way of the dodo. This is bad. It means that if you want high quality 2 channel audio, you have to have a surround sound processor or AVR. Especially if you are interested in video. Most 2 channel DACS nowadays don't support HDMI. And even if they do, it's not an easy work around. The HDMI signal usually comes with a video signal of some sort. The only other way to get 2 channel is USB which relegates it to USB outputs from a computer. And there is no real reason why this one connector has to be taken out. None at all. It was there for ages on nearly everything. The new 4k streaming devices most all do away with them. The only ones that still utilize them are the premium devices if you are lucky. Soon they will be gone too. As for 7.1 inputs, this baffles me. If one is buying a very expensive processor, imo, it's because you want its audio quality for surround sound. Using it solely as an analog preamp for surround sound looks to me to be redundant or superfluos. I can understand if there existed a superb standalone multichannel DAC that needed a 7.1 preamp to function one that was clearly superior. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 22, 2018 14:57:41 GMT -5
For me to even consider a "high end" DAC it would have to have HDMI and USB inputs (plus coax and toslink of course) and balanced (XLR) outputs. Without those it's just not a "high end" DAC to me.
The balanced (XLR) outputs are the main reason I have an ERC-3, it facilitates a fully balanced system all the way through from its DAC output, through the XSP-1 to the XPA-1L power amps' output. To get into my system a "high end" DAC would have to do the same. The XMC-1 of course has balanced "XLR" inputs.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 22, 2018 15:23:59 GMT -5
I was going to suggest the Yamaha 5100 pre pro to Bonzo for its comprehensive dsp modes but alas even that doesn't have analog record outs  Thanks for trying. I looked at that unit last year too. Alas..... Right now there isn't one unit, at any price, at least that I have seen, that does it all (without professional installation like I believe the really expensive boys might require) They all fall short in one area or another. If Emotiva makes the right expansion modules for the RMC-1, then it's the only one I see potentially covering all the bases. It depends on how much the modules cost, which ones they make, and how long it takes for them to make them. All unknown factors at the moment. |
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Post by mountain on Jan 22, 2018 16:06:26 GMT -5
I, at this time, would not buy a processor w/o 7.1 analog inputs. I bought my 105 before I bought the umc-200. I just had to hear the ess Sabre and Oppo 105, after reading so many reviews. The pre/pro, which I initially was not going to get, was bought for added convience. A nice combination and I use both processors. No complaints. Starting New it may be different, if I would buy the pre/pro first. Pick your dac and implementation, go from there.
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Lsc
Emo VIPs 
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Post by Lsc on Jan 22, 2018 17:21:03 GMT -5
Seems like if you want the 7.1 analog in, then you should buy the XMC-1 gen2.
I’m good with the gen3 not having it and the XMC-1 gen3 has everything that I need. If it didn’t, I’d just look elsewhere instead of asking Emotiva to change their design.
Only those who joined the million dollar club have design input. Rest of us on this forum are just noise. 😊 I wouldn’t be surprised if they shut the emo forums down. The new product releases are published elsewhere first anyway.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 22, 2018 17:48:18 GMT -5
I, at this time, would not buy a processor w/o 7.1 analog inputs. I bought my 105 before I bought the umc-200. I just had to hear the ess Sabre and Oppo 105, after reading so many reviews. The pre/pro, which I initially was not going to get, was bought for added convience. A nice combination and I use both processors. No complaints. Starting New it may be different, if I would buy the pre/pro first. Pick your dac and implementation, go from there. I assume that you are aware that the stereo outputs (and the headphone amp) from the 105 use one ESS Sabre 32 ES9018 DAC chip, which has eight DAC channels (ie; 4 channels available for each). The other 6 channels (in a 7.2 set up) use the other chip (ie; one channel each). Hence the 105 only has balanced (XLR) outputs for the stereo channels and RCA outputs for the other channels, including the sub woofer/s. So the performance for stereo using the one chip and balanced outputs is undoubtedly superior to the other 6 channels using one chip and the RCA outputs. Something to think about in regards to the processor and/or pre amp. Cheers Gary |
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Post by mountain on Jan 22, 2018 18:07:40 GMT -5
I, at this time, would not buy a processor w/o 7.1 analog inputs. I bought my 105 before I bought the umc-200. I just had to hear the ess Sabre and Oppo 105, after reading so many reviews. The pre/pro, which I initially was not going to get, was bought for added convience. A nice combination and I use both processors. No complaints. Starting New it may be different, if I would buy the pre/pro first. Pick your dac and implementation, go from there. I assume that you are aware that the stereo outputs (and the headphone amp) from the 105 use one ESS Sabre 32 ES9018 DAC chip, which has eight DAC channels (ie; 4 channels available for each). The other 6 channels (in a 7.2 set up) use the other chip (ie; one channel each). Hence the 105 only has balanced (XLR) outputs for the stereo channels and RCA outputs for the other channels, including the sub woofer/s. So the performance for stereo using the one chip and balanced outputs is undoubtedly superior to the other 6 channels using one chip and the RCA outputs. Something to think about in regards to the processor and/or pre amp. Cheers Gary Yes, I am aware. I use the Oppo 105 stereo outs for streaming tidal/Roon via oppos dac via usb, although I use the rca outs. |
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 23, 2018 10:38:15 GMT -5
The balanced (XLR) outputs are the main reason I have an ERC-3, it facilitates a fully balanced system all the way through from its DAC output, through the XSP-1 to the XPA-1L power amps' output. To get into my system a "high end" DAC would have to do the same. The XMC-1 of course has balanced "XLR" inputs. BUT, I have one question for you Gary, since you have a strong opinion about your ERC-3, and I value your thoughts. I'd like to try and look at this from another angle, from say, the other side of the fence, or your shoes, but in reverse. Using what I've been saying, what others have been saying, and what you are saying here, why would the XMC-1 Gen 3 or RMC-1 even have any stereo XLR inputs? People keep saying that once you have a high end processor, what's the point of using something else for your decoding source? Isn't it obvious that the high end processor would have the better DAC's etc. So from the sounds of it, hardly anyone is even using the XLR inputs. If hardly anyone is using them, why bother putting them in? In other words Gary, why don't you just sell your ERC-3 and get a cheaper player to just use as a transport? Heck, why does Emotiva even continue to sell the ERC-3? Why not just make a cheap $100 transport and be done? Of course I'm just playing Devil's advocate here because I don't think any of the above should happen. I'm just following along with what people are saying. It's like there is some easily deciphered line in the sand and 7.1 inputs are on the wrong side, but XLR inputs are okay. Stereo XLR from an Oppo 105 or ERC-3 are good, but 7.1 from an Oppo is useless. So what say you Gary? I'm curious. Although I think I already know your answer. |
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Post by garbulky on Jan 23, 2018 11:10:06 GMT -5
The balanced (XLR) outputs are the main reason I have an ERC-3, it facilitates a fully balanced system all the way through from its DAC output, through the XSP-1 to the XPA-1L power amps' output. To get into my system a "high end" DAC would have to do the same. The XMC-1 of course has balanced "XLR" inputs. BUT, I have one question for you Gary, since you have a strong opinion about your ERC-3, and I value your thoughts. I'd like to try and look at this from another angle, from say, the other side of the fence, or your shoes, but in reverse. Using what I've been saying, what others have been saying, and what you are saying here, why would the XMC-1 Gen 3 or RMC-1 even have any stereo XLR inputs? People keep saying that once you have a high end processor, what's the point of using something else for your decoding source? Isn't it obvious that the high end processor would have the better DAC's etc. So from the sounds of it, hardly anyone is even using the XLR inputs. If hardly anyone is using them, why bother putting them in? In other words Gary, why don't you just sell your ERC-3 and get a cheaper player to just use as a transport? Heck, why does Emotiva even continue to sell the ERC-3? Why not just make a cheap $100 transport and be done? Of course I'm just playing Devil's advocate here because I don't think any of the above should happen. I'm just following along with what people are saying. It's like there is some easily deciphered line in the sand and 7.1 inputs are on the wrong side, but XLR inputs are okay. Stereo XLR from an Oppo 105 or ERC-3 are good, but 7.1 from an Oppo is useless. So what say you Gary? I'm curious. Although I think I already know your answer. Well for me, I'm a two channel guy. And for that, I would buy the best sounding and likely most expensive two channel DAC I can get. I've heard the XMC-1. It's a pretty good surround sound processor. But for two channel, I don't think I would choose its DAC- granted at this level, subjective preference and subtle details are what this type of stuff is about rather than whack you about the head obvious differences. If I get an XMC-1 it would be because I want to experience surround sound and integrate it in to my two channel- but also want it to sound great. The fact that it has balanced two channel in is important. Unfortunately for bass management you lose balanced drive. But it is what it is. For movies, quality is important, but it is not the end of the world if it's slightly off from the best I can get. But with two channel, I'm interested in new types of solutions. Ones that don't use an off the shelf DAC. Like Schiit's multibit Yggdrassil DAC with their new filter, or say a Chord Dave, or PS Audio Direct stream dac, or Metrum Pavane, Holosprings DAC, TotalDAC, Audio GD's R2R etc All these things interest me in a way that delta sigma dacs no longer do. I've heard quite a few DS dacs - some very good ones - like the DC-1 and the Rega DAC. Now I'm interested in what else is out there as I develop what is to be my end game system. So if I were to buy an XMC-1, I would definitely want the option to have a two channel balanced input. The variety available is too large to pass that up. But a 7.1 channel input, there is no point in any use I would want it for. Other than sticking in an Oppo - for no beneficial reason imo - , what would you use it for? |
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 23, 2018 11:28:34 GMT -5
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 23, 2018 11:33:55 GMT -5
I really want to put this input output subject to bed because we've worn it out.BUT, I have one question for you Gary, since you have a strong opinion about your ERC-3, and I value your thoughts. I'd like to try and look at this from another angle, from say, the other side of the fence, or your shoes, but in reverse. Using what I've been saying, what others have been saying, and what you are saying here, why would the XMC-1 Gen 3 or RMC-1 even have any stereo XLR inputs? People keep saying that once you have a high end processor, what's the point of using something else for your decoding source? Isn't it obvious that the high end processor would have the better DAC's etc. So from the sounds of it, hardly anyone is even using the XLR inputs. If hardly anyone is using them, why bother putting them in? In other words Gary, why don't you just sell your ERC-3 and get a cheaper player to just use as a transport? Heck, why does Emotiva even continue to sell the ERC-3? Why not just make a cheap $100 transport and be done? Of course I'm just playing Devil's advocate here because I don't think any of the above should happen. I'm just following along with what people are saying. It's like there is some easily deciphered line in the sand and 7.1 inputs are on the wrong side, but XLR inputs are okay. Stereo XLR from an Oppo 105 or ERC-3 are good, but 7.1 from an Oppo is useless. So what say you Gary? I'm curious. Although I think I already know your answer. Well for me, I'm a two channel guy. And for that, I would buy the best sounding and likely most expensive two channel DAC I can get. I've heard the XMC-1. It's a pretty good surround sound processor. But for two channel, I don't think I would choose its DAC- granted at this level, subjective preference and subtle details are what this type of stuff is about rather than whack you about the head obvious differences. If I get an XMC-1 it would be because I want to experience surround sound and integrate it in to my two channel- but also want it to sound great. The fact that it has balanced two channel in is important. Unfortunately for bass management you lose balanced drive. But it is what it is. For movies, quality is important, but it is not the end of the world if it's slightly off from the best I can get. But with two channel, I'm interested in new types of solutions. Ones that don't use an off the shelf DAC. Like Schiit's multibit Yggdrassil DAC with their new filter, or say a Chord Dave, or PS Audio Direct stream dac, or Metrum Pavane, Holosprings DAC, TotalDAC, Audio GD's R2R etc All these things interest me in a way that delta sigma dacs no longer do. I've heard quite a few DS dacs - some very good ones - like the DC-1 and the Rega DAC. Now I'm interested in what else is out there as I develop what is to be my end game system. So if I were to buy an XMC-1, I would definitely want the option to have a two channel balanced input. The variety available is too large to pass that up. But a 7.1 channel input, there is no point in any use I would want it for. Other than sticking in an Oppo - for no beneficial reason imo - , what would you use it for? Well it sounds to me as if what you really need is more like an XSP-1 and a decent receiver with the latest Atmos / DTS:X processing. |
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Post by garbulky on Jan 23, 2018 12:12:41 GMT -5
Well for me, I'm a two channel guy. And for that, I would buy the best sounding and likely most expensive two channel DAC I can get. I've heard the XMC-1. It's a pretty good surround sound processor. But for two channel, I don't think I would choose its DAC- granted at this level, subjective preference and subtle details are what this type of stuff is about rather than whack you about the head obvious differences. If I get an XMC-1 it would be because I want to experience surround sound and integrate it in to my two channel- but also want it to sound great. The fact that it has balanced two channel in is important. Unfortunately for bass management you lose balanced drive. But it is what it is. For movies, quality is important, but it is not the end of the world if it's slightly off from the best I can get. But with two channel, I'm interested in new types of solutions. Ones that don't use an off the shelf DAC. Like Schiit's multibit Yggdrassil DAC with their new filter, or say a Chord Dave, or PS Audio Direct stream dac, or Metrum Pavane, Holosprings DAC, TotalDAC, Audio GD's R2R etc All these things interest me in a way that delta sigma dacs no longer do. I've heard quite a few DS dacs - some very good ones - like the DC-1 and the Rega DAC. Now I'm interested in what else is out there as I develop what is to be my end game system. So if I were to buy an XMC-1, I would definitely want the option to have a two channel balanced input. The variety available is too large to pass that up. But a 7.1 channel input, there is no point in any use I would want it for. Other than sticking in an Oppo - for no beneficial reason imo - , what would you use it for? Well it sounds to me as if what you really need is more like an XSP-1 and a decent receiver with the latest Atmos / DTS:X processing. Ewww no receivers please!   If I go surround sound, I would want some level of good quality - something close to my two channel gear. The XSP-1 I've tried and it wasn't transparent enough for me in two channel. Surprisingly I found my DC-1's analog input more transparent. I'm considering the Audio GD HE-1, but it doesn't have the HT bypass feature. I see you want to add in stadium effects. Well I guess it used to be quite common. I guess when you get used to it, you want to preserve it. Still a pretty niche application. Not that there's anything wrong with niche. I mean for most people somebody that wants a dedicated high quality digital transport to slide in to my computers PCI-x slot is a niche thing! But I have a feeling streaming in effects from a Denon factor in almost nowhere in Emotiva's design plans! Hehe. |
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richb
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Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
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Post by richb on Jan 23, 2018 12:40:10 GMT -5
Eventually, I wll send my XMC-1 gen2 in for the HDMI update service. During its absense, I can use the UDP-205 as the 5.1 premap too. The family does not tolerate down-time  - Rich |
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 23, 2018 13:05:49 GMT -5
Ewww no receivers please! If I go surround sound, I would want some level of good quality - something close to my two channel gear. You old coots really needs to get over your old receiver pains.  They simply aren't as bad as you all make them out to be. But the idea being is, that it's sounds to me like you won't be satisfied with one "do it all system." And that's exactly what I want, a do it all system for my do it all room. If I could have a 2 channel room and a theater room I presume my needs/wants would be quite a bit different. Well then the XMC-1 having XLR inputs probably isn't good enough either, because I seriously doubt the XMC-1 is more transparent than the XSP-1. S&V gave the Yamaha unit product of the year honors this year because it sounds great, and it has what they basically said are effect modes that are actually sonically awesome, even for true audiophiles. They especially liked Cathedral. So I have to wonder how niche it really is. (Interesting to note that the only Emotiva product on the S&V POTY list was an amp, not the processor or speakers). Very true. The Oppo argument holds more water. But in the end it's all about flexibility and capability. And the fact is without these inputs there is less. Without the 7.1, I don't even have the option. Funny thing is, if you look around at other processors and receivers etc, the general trend by other companies is to do away with RCA and digital record outputs all together. (Like I said before in a previous post, this isn't because people don't want or need these things, it's to take our consumer control away and keep it in the hands of the "business"). Emotiva has dropped half the equation, the RCA part, and kept the digital part. So at least they kept part of it. But if you look around at the 7.1 inputs, most other companies still have it. So Emotiva is the one out on an island dropping said inputs. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 23, 2018 15:04:44 GMT -5
The balanced (XLR) outputs are the main reason I have an ERC-3, it facilitates a fully balanced system all the way through from its DAC output, through the XSP-1 to the XPA-1L power amps' output. To get into my system a "high end" DAC would have to do the same. The XMC-1 of course has balanced "XLR" inputs. BUT, I have one question for you Gary, since you have a strong opinion about your ERC-3, and I value your thoughts. I'd like to try and look at this from another angle, from say, the other side of the fence, or your shoes, but in reverse. Using what I've been saying, what others have been saying, and what you are saying here, why would the XMC-1 Gen 3 or RMC-1 even have any stereo XLR inputs? People keep saying that once you have a high end processor, what's the point of using something else for your decoding source? Isn't it obvious that the high end processor would have the better DAC's etc. So from the sounds of it, hardly anyone is even using the XLR inputs. If hardly anyone is using them, why bother putting them in? In other words Gary, why don't you just sell your ERC-3 and get a cheaper player to just use as a transport? Heck, why does Emotiva even continue to sell the ERC-3? Why not just make a cheap $100 transport and be done? Of course I'm just playing Devil's advocate here because I don't think any of the above should happen. I'm just following along with what people are saying. It's like there is some easily deciphered line in the sand and 7.1 inputs are on the wrong side, but XLR inputs are okay. Stereo XLR from an Oppo 105 or ERC-3 are good, but 7.1 from an Oppo is useless. So what say you Gary? I'm curious. Although I think I already know your answer. I have what looks like one system, in the one room, but it is in fact 2 systems that utilise the HT bypass facility in the XSP-1 with the trigger system set up accordingly. When I listen to music via the ERC-3 only the XSP-1, the pair of XPA-1L's and the XPA-100 for the subwoofer are powered up. It's a pure 2.1 stereo system, differential, discrete, with all balanced XLR connections. There's no room correction, no extraneous electronics, only the one digital to analogue conversion which is internal within the ERC-3. So there's no digital stuff anywhere near the analogue signal. Does it make a difference? I don't know, but what I do know is it's the quietest, like dead quiet, best sounding (to me) stereo system that I've ever had in my possession (and I've tried a lot of systems). For completeness, none of that system will need replacing for years, decades even, it's not going out of date, or being made obsolete by changes in standards or connections. So to answer your question, I would not connect my ERC-3 to the balanced XLR inputs in an XMC-1, I suspect that I wouldn't use them at all. I would always have my stereo system separated (electronically) but within the HT system (physically). That said, I can easily see other people using them with an external DAC of their choice. Cheers Gary |
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Post by garbulky on Jan 23, 2018 15:55:47 GMT -5
Ewww no receivers please! If I go surround sound, I would want some level of good quality - something close to my two channel gear. You old coots really needs to get over your old receiver pains. They simply aren't as bad as you all make them out to be. But the idea being is, that it's sounds to me like you won't be satisfied with one "do it all system." And that's exactly what I want, a do it all system for my do it all room. If I could have a 2 channel room and a theater room I presume my needs/wants would be quite a bit different. Well then the XMC-1 having XLR inputs probably isn't good enough either, because I seriously doubt the XMC-1 is more transparent than the XSP-1. I don't know the answer to that. All I know is that the XSP-1 wasn't for me with my current setup (the XPA-1 gen2). But if the DC-1 could be more transparent, who knows how the XMC-1 would do? |
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If I go surround sound, I would want some level of good quality - something close to my two channel gear. 
They simply aren't as bad as you all make them out to be. But the idea being is, that it's sounds to me like you won't be satisfied with one "do it all system." And that's exactly what I want, a do it all system for my do it all room. If I could have a 2 channel room and a theater room I presume my needs/wants would be quite a bit different. 