cawgijoe
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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
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Post by cawgijoe on Apr 4, 2018 7:27:51 GMT -5
It appears the consensus is to buy cheap, plastic disc players and dump them when they die. I’ve never been able to do that with any equipment. The fact is some equipment is disposable, they go out of date technically well before they physically wear out. It makes no sense for me to spend $900 on a 203 that will last 10 years if if it's technically out of date in 3 to 4 years. Whereas I can buy an X800 for $250 with video and audio that looks and sounds the same. If it only lasts 3 years I'm in front. There is also the issue of hanging onto equipment too long because it cost so much that we just can't bear to replace it. As a result we suffer on with outdated video and/or audio. I have no attachment to the X800, it's an appliance, when it's past its use by date I'll go out and buy the latest and greatest. This is not the same for equipment that hasn't got that short a technical life span. Then it's all about the quality, of its construction, engineering and sound. Amplifiers, speakers, stereo pre amplifiers, CD players etc fall into my category of quality for decades. TV's, disc players and processors not so much. Cheers Gary I would have paid $300 or so for the Sony at the time I bought the Oppo 203 in the US. After a fantastic experience of around two years owning the 103 and recovering 65% of the cost of the 103 on resale, I could not be happier. Owning the 103 was great. Owning the 203 is currently wonderful. Customer support is also very important to me, hence why I also buy Emotiva. You will not get that with Sony. Sometimes it’s not all about the money. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 4, 2018 11:34:56 GMT -5
The answer to that is "yes and no". We have long since crossed the line where there is the possibility of making what I would call "absolute advances" in compression. We have virtually zero chance of being able to deliver an exactly identical quality picture over significantly less bandwidth. Also note that even the video on current Blu-Ray discs is already heavily compressed (just not as heavily as in streaming video). Therefore, where we are with current technology is a battle to apply more compression while producing fewer visibly unpleasant side effects. The current H.265 compression used on 4k discs provides better compression that the previous H.264 standard with fewer side effects. (Also, happily, the side effects it produces are less annoying... over-compressed H.265 images tend to get slightly soft rather than show blocky or jagged artifacts.) The cost of this benefit is that the new compression CODEC requires a LOT more processing power to decode (and a LOT more to encode). Incidentally, current 4k streaming services utilize much the same compression technology as 4k discs.... and use about 1/4 the bandwidth. (If they used the same bandwidth they should be able to deliver the same quality as a 4k disc.) However, to put it bluntly, we have probably reached close to the limit of the gains possible with anything close to current technology. We have also reached a sort of point of diminishing returns. In theory a 4k picture should include 4x as much detail as an HD picture - and, with the same quality of compression, it should also take up 4x the bandwidth. Also, in theory (and very vaguely), the new H.265 compression is "about twice as good as the previous version" (half the bandwidth for the same "perceived image quality"). If you do the math, you'll see that this suggests that we should be getting "a 4k picture that looks 4x as good but only takes up twice as much space". However, in practice, what tends to happen is that we end up getting a picture that "looks a little bit better" but takes up about the same amount of bandwidth. The other detail is that the sorts of losses of quality caused by various factors are very different - which can make comparing them quite difficult. For example, a 4k HDR picture with very high compression may be slightly soft, but it won't be blocky, and the colors will probably be very bright, with excellent contrast. The problem is that the excellent color saturation and great contrast may obscure the fact that the picture may actually be LESS sharp than before. As a result, for example, a 4k streaming version of the same movie may be brighter and clearer than the HD version, even if the picture itself is no sharper because it is more heavily compressed. (Many pros have suggested that we'd be best served by HD with HDR.... but that combination is not usually offered.) The bottom line of all this is that we are currently engaged in a game of "fiddle with the compromises to get the best overall compromise".... However, I wouldn't expect to see any DRAMATIC improvements due to improved engineering technology alone any time soon... because we're already pretty far along that road. Tough crowd! Keith - what I meant about the engineers being able to provide is the ability to come up with the tech to be able to provide video quality that is comparable to 4k bluray with our current internet. Not sure if that is possible, but I never thought they would get to where they are now! I only purchase 4k movies that I believe are classic and I will watch again. It appears the consensus is to buy cheap, plastic disc players and dump them when they die. I’ve never been able to do that with any equipment. Oh well. |
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cawgijoe
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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
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Post by cawgijoe on Apr 4, 2018 11:43:56 GMT -5
Thanks Keith.
What about next gen internet that I keep hearing about?
I think the whole enchilada would have to be revamped.
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Post by qdtjni on Apr 4, 2018 12:57:17 GMT -5
Next gen?
I’ve had 1Gbit/s at home for almost 4 years.
Considering changing to a new service with 10Gbits.
It would even take cost down to 40CHF per month including TV.
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Apr 4, 2018 13:04:01 GMT -5
What on earth are they going to make if they don't make any new products? Does the company make any other products? I believe they are involved with smart phones in other parts of the world. Actually the parent company is the largest cell phone manufacturer in China and is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. The blu ray, DAC, Headphone Amp, I believe were all driven by Peter and he left the company roughly 5 years ago. So even though I don't know the percentage of sales, I think it is safe to say the blu ray devision was a small percentage in the over all scene of things. I will say that a lot of credit should go to Jin and Jason for all the hard work they put in to build the brand. Just my opinion and thoughts. Lonnie |
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Post by creimes on Apr 4, 2018 13:11:01 GMT -5
Next gen? I’ve had 1Gbit/s at home for almost 4 years. Considering changing to a new service with 10Gbits. It would even take cost down to 40CHF per month including TV. My goodness what would you even need that much bandwidth for haha, I have 75mbs down and 12mbps up but we do offer 1gbps on Fiber optics as our fastest plan but I don't have Fiber optics at my 1954 house lol. Chad |
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Post by Loop 7 on Apr 4, 2018 13:17:19 GMT -5
Thanks Keith. What about next gen internet that I keep hearing about? I think the whole enchilada would have to be revamped. The US is certainly not the leader in residential broadband. While huge pipes (gig service) have been available in many parts of the US for over a decade, much of the country pays a high monthly fee for service with data caps which prohibit uncompressed video streaming. Companies are slowly rolling out extremely fast mesh wireless so maybe there's a bright future. The data cap issue may remain indefinitely. |
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Post by qdtjni on Apr 4, 2018 13:27:19 GMT -5
Next gen? I’ve had 1Gbit/s at home for almost 4 years. Considering changing to a new service with 10Gbits. It would even take cost down to 40CHF per month including TV. My goodness what would you even need that much bandwidth for haha, I have 75mbs down and 12mbps up but we do offer 1gbps on Fiber optics as our fastest plan but I don't have Fiber optics at my 1954 house lol. Chad Don’t think many people need 1Gbit/s, even less so 10. 😊 However, at 40 CHF per month, why not? It certainly opens up possibilities. 😊 |
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Post by creimes on Apr 4, 2018 13:36:36 GMT -5
My goodness what would you even need that much bandwidth for haha, I have 75mbs down and 12mbps up but we do offer 1gbps on Fiber optics as our fastest plan but I don't have Fiber optics at my 1954 house lol. Chad Don’t think many people need 1Gbit/s, even less so 10. 😊 However, at 40 CHF per month, why not? It certainly opens up possibilities. 😊 I would think not, you could run my entire city of 50,000 people on that lol, our 50 mbit plan equals to about $110 US price wise so us Canadians get taken to the cleaners on internet plan prices |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 4, 2018 13:57:10 GMT -5
The first thing to remember is that "the Internet" is like "the power grid"..... It isn't a single thing, but merely a name used to describe a whole bunch of equipment, owned by a whole bunch of different companies. Therefore, there is no single company who is going to roll out or offer "the next gen Internet". It's simply a matter of the individual vendors deciding that their customers are willing to pay for faster service and deciding to offer it. You'll notice that there is a continuing competition between cable companies to offer faster Internet access. That IS "the next gen Internet". To put things in perspective, the Internet connection I have in my living room is 1/5 as fast as the main backbone link connecting the Internet between the east and west coasts of the United States 1978. (And a connection as fast as the one I have in my living room today would have cost about $75,000 back then.) I should also point out that the progress of technology often occurs in fits and starts. Twenty years ago, 10 mBit Internet access was considered "good".... then everybody upgraded their network backbones to Fiber. Fiber made much higher access speeds both practical and economical. In fact, for a while, there was a glut of bandwidth, with most people having far greater access speeds than they needed. Then, partly because bandwidth was so cheap, relatively high quality video streaming became popular, which used up all that dirt cheap bandwidth. So we now find ourselves to be at a point where bandwidth is the limiting factor again. (As of three years ago, only about half of all Netflix customers had an Internet connection fast enough to allow them to pick the highest quality streaming setting.) Note that, in general, the companies who make the content are not the same companies providing the access. So, for example, XFinity will offer their customers faster Internet access when there's a demand for it (either their customers are willing to pay more, or they have to offer it to keep up with their competitors). And Netflix will consider offering better quality video streaming when enough of THEIR customers are asking for it... Which will be partly determined by when enough of their customers have a fast enough Internet connection to actually use it... In general, MOST of us have much faster Internet access this year than we had five years ago, for a proportionately lower price. And there's no reason to suggest that this trend won't continue. However, if you're looking for some general announcement that "the next generation of Internet is here now" you're likely to be disappointed. (Or, more likely, you'll hear it once a week, from various vendors, but it will just be hype.) In one sense, however, I do dispute your assertion that "the whole thing will have to be revamped". Many ISPs already offer GigaBit speeds - or even faster - if you're willing to pay for them. Does your current ISP offer faster Internet access than you have now? If not, is there another ISP in your area who offers faster access? If so, then the next gen Internet is there already.... you just have to sign up.  Thanks Keith. What about next gen internet that I keep hearing about? I think the whole enchilada would have to be revamped. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 4, 2018 14:03:55 GMT -5
A lot of it also depends on what you're connected TO. A 10 gb Ethernet connection does not promise that you can transfer 10 gb of actual data per second. In general, those speeds you see quoted are the speed of the final link between you and your ISP. (Sometimes they'e just the speed of the output ports on your router.) They may in fact not represent the overall speed between you and the Internet, and they surely don't represent the speeds of the various servers you might connect to. For example, a real 10 Gbps link should allow you to download a standard Blu-Ray movie, at full quality, in just under one minute. It could also theoretically allow you to simultaneously watch six separate 4k discs AT THE SAME TIME, in real time, at full quality. However, it's very doubtful that there's anyplace where you can actually GET that sort of speed from one end of the connection to the other. Don’t think many people need 1Gbit/s, even less so 10. 😊 However, at 40 CHF per month, why not? It certainly opens up possibilities. 😊 I would think not, you could run my entire city of 50,000 people on that lol, our 50 mbit plan equals to about $110 US price wise so us Canadians get taken to the cleaners on internet plan prices |
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Post by qdtjni on Apr 4, 2018 14:09:59 GMT -5
Don’t think many people need 1Gbit/s, even less so 10. 😊 However, at 40 CHF per month, why not? It certainly opens up possibilities. 😊 I would think not, you could run my entire city of 50,000 people on that lol, our 50 mbit plan equals to about $110 US price wise so us Canadians get taken to the cleaners on internet plan prices Even here in Switzerland where virtually everything is expensive, nobody pays even half of that for that kind of bandwidth. Then again, 1kg of beef tenderloin is around 100 CHF! 😡 |
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Post by qdtjni on Apr 4, 2018 14:18:46 GMT -5
A lot of it also depends on what you're connected TO. A 10 gb Ethernet connection does not promise that you can transfer 10 gb of actual data per second. In general, those speeds you see quoted are the speed of the final link between you and your ISP. (Sometimes they'e just the speed of the output ports on your router.) They may in fact not represent the overall speed between you and the Internet, and they surely don't represent the speeds of the various servers you might connect to. For example, a real 10 Gbps link should allow you to download a standard Blu-Ray movie, at full quality, in just under one minute. It could also theoretically allow you to simultaneously watch six separate 4k discs AT THE SAME TIME, in real time, at full quality. However, it's very doubtful that there's anyplace where you can actually GET that sort of speed from one end of the connection to the other. I would think not, you could run my entire city of 50,000 people on that lol, our 50 mbit plan equals to about $110 US price wise so us Canadians get taken to the cleaners on internet plan prices While I doubt the 10Gbps connection would allow anything except perhaps Speedtest to reach that, I get close to the current 1Gbps from or to several services including Cloud services such as backup at Amazon. For the current plan I pay 77 CHF per month. At 40 CHF for 10Gbits, why not? 😊 |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 4, 2018 15:17:21 GMT -5
The USA is a big place (geographically) and Internet access varies widely from place to place. I currently get 150 Mbps of Internet access for something like $50(US) per month (can't say exactly because it's part of a bundle). Every few years our cable company increases the service speed while keeping the price the same. Some folks get faster access for even less (and I can get faster service if I'm willing to pay more). However, a buddy of mine lives in a small town in Wisconsin, and the fastest service he can get is DSL, at something like 10 Mbps (with luck). It's not a matter of price; faster service just isn't available on his street. (There aren't enough customers per square mile for the cable companies to be willing to run a high speed connection to his area.) Many people don't realize that, if you list countries in terms of "best average Internet connection speed", the USA is pretty far down the list. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Internet_connection_speedsNote the HUGE differences between peak speeds and AVERAGE speeds for the various countries. Also note that, at peak times, the speed you get may actually be BELOW the average speed. It's also worth noting that network speeds can vary widely, even in a small geographic area, depending on how the routing is set up in your neighborhood, and even on your street. For example, many apartment complexes and small neighborhoods have their own routers, and their own "trunk line" that supplies access for the neighborhood. Regardless of how fast your connection to the router, and how fast the connection between your router and the Internet, that router itself can become a serious bottleneck at heavy traffic times. I used to live in a big local apartment complex, with around 1000 units, all served by a central router and Internet connection. At coming-home-from-work time, when everyone checks their e-mail, Internet access would sometimes virtually stall, even though we easily got 50 Mbps at off-hours. It really depends on a lot of different factors... not all of which are visible to the end user. I would think not, you could run my entire city of 50,000 people on that lol, our 50 mbit plan equals to about $110 US price wise so us Canadians get taken to the cleaners on internet plan prices Even here in Switzerland where virtually everything is expensive, nobody pays even half of that for that kind of bandwidth. Then again, 1kg of beef tenderloin is around 100 CHF! 😡 |
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 4, 2018 15:28:32 GMT -5
The fact is some equipment is disposable, they go out of date technically well before they physically wear out. It makes no sense for me to spend $900 on a 203 that will last 10 years if if it's technically out of date in 3 to 4 years. Whereas I can buy an X800 for $250 with video and audio that looks and sounds the same. If it only lasts 3 years I'm in front. There is also the issue of hanging onto equipment too long because it cost so much that we just can't bear to replace it. As a result we suffer on with outdated video and/or audio. I have no attachment to the X800, it's an appliance, when it's past its use by date I'll go out and buy the latest and greatest. This is not the same for equipment that hasn't got that short a technical life span. Then it's all about the quality, of its construction, engineering and sound. Amplifiers, speakers, stereo pre amplifiers, CD players etc fall into my category of quality for decades. TV's, disc players and processors not so much. I would have paid $300 or so for the Sony at the time I bought the Oppo 203 in the US. After a fantastic experience of around two years owning the 103 and recovering 65% of the cost of the 103 on resale, I could not be happier. Owning the 103 was great. Owning the 203 is currently wonderful. Customer support is also very important to me, hence why I also buy Emotiva. You will not get that with Sony. Sometimes it’s not all about the money. I had a 203 for 4 months while my cousin was sailing the Pacific and I don't find the X800 to be any different, video or audio. If it was any less "wonderful" I would have bought a 203, but it wasn't so I didn't. Cheers Gary |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 4, 2018 15:35:33 GMT -5
Just for reference, the maximum data rate on an actual Blu-Ray disc is 54 mbps (that's HD - 1080p). You would need a data rate of at least twice that to ensure being able to stream a Blu-Ray disc at full quality without interruptions. Figure somewhere around double that for 4k video at "disc quality". Streaming services like NetFlix generally run at about 1/4 of those bandwidths, which is why their picture quality isn't as good as a disc. (Considering how much less bandwidth they use the picture is pretty good.) Don’t think many people need 1Gbit/s, even less so 10. 😊 However, at 40 CHF per month, why not? It certainly opens up possibilities. 😊 I would think not, you could run my entire city of 50,000 people on that lol, our 50 mbit plan equals to about $110 US price wise so us Canadians get taken to the cleaners on internet plan prices |
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guitarforlife
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Post by guitarforlife on Apr 4, 2018 15:59:46 GMT -5
Tough crowd! Keith - what I meant about the engineers being able to provide is the ability to come up with the tech to be able to provide video quality that is comparable to 4k bluray with our current internet. Not sure if that is possible, but I never thought they would get to where they are now! I only purchase 4k movies that I believe are classic and I will watch again. It appears the consensus is to buy cheap, plastic disc players and dump them when they die. I’ve never been able to do that with any equipment. Oh well. LOL, Yes tough crowd. In fact your on going comments to this thread actually caused me to log in to ad my 2cents. I like you will miss oppo. I like you see the new plastic crap dvd player they sell as a joke. I have over 6000 dvd and blurays in my home as we speak. I hate streaming I prefer to own my own media. I like all the art work, books and band history that you will get with CD album or DVD. I could care less about 4k. My main reason I was drawn to the OPPO players they are one of the very few with analog out puts. I never wanted 5.1 or any other blah blah blah out puts. What I truly wanted was good ol" fashioned two Chanel stereo out to my good Ol' fashion preamp so I can watch all my concert DVDs in stereo 2 Chanel, not 5 not 7 not 9 not 1000 speaker systems. Not to mention with all the band width and caps it will just cost more to get what I have with my OPPO. I like the way mine sounds as well I love it for CD playback as well. It sounds just as good or better then my McIntosh CD player. I could have bought 16 OPPO's for what the McIntosh cost at the time. I have not had one problem with mine never been on the phone with tech support not once. On the other hand I have had my share of $79.00 DVD players that last about 6 months and I can not even throw them away I have to wait for the proper recycling day to dump them. So you will not be the only one missing their OPPO player count me in with you. |
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Post by creimes on Apr 4, 2018 20:03:45 GMT -5
As a technician for the ISP company BellMTS I know all about the limits of a broadband connection, our DSL service in the rurals is a measley 3,5 or 7 mbps and our copper VDSL plans run from 10 - 50 mbps and soon 75 and 100 mbps plans and those speeds through copper are strictly pair bonded circuits, our FTTH(Fiber To The Home) plans max at 1gbps with the fastest speedtest I have run within our network being just over 900mbps, the not so fine print that customers never seem to realize is all our plans say "Up To". www.bellmts.ca/residential/internet/plansChad A lot of it also depends on what you're connected TO. A 10 gb Ethernet connection does not promise that you can transfer 10 gb of actual data per second. In general, those speeds you see quoted are the speed of the final link between you and your ISP. (Sometimes they'e just the speed of the output ports on your router.) They may in fact not represent the overall speed between you and the Internet, and they surely don't represent the speeds of the various servers you might connect to. For example, a real 10 Gbps link should allow you to download a standard Blu-Ray movie, at full quality, in just under one minute. It could also theoretically allow you to simultaneously watch six separate 4k discs AT THE SAME TIME, in real time, at full quality. However, it's very doubtful that there's anyplace where you can actually GET that sort of speed from one end of the connection to the other. I would think not, you could run my entire city of 50,000 people on that lol, our 50 mbit plan equals to about $110 US price wise so us Canadians get taken to the cleaners on internet plan prices |
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Post by jjkessler on Apr 5, 2018 9:29:05 GMT -5
With OPPO out of the picture, who makes the best 4K player?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 13:39:42 GMT -5
Don’t think many people need 1Gbit/s, even less so 10. 😊 However, at 40 CHF per month, why not? It certainly opens up possibilities. 😊 I would think not, you could run my entire city of 50,000 people on that lol, our 50 mbit plan equals to about $110 US price wise so us Canadians get taken to the cleaners on internet plan prices Well, where I live in the mountains of western NC, the only two options are (1) DSL at <=6 mbps and a 150 G monthly data limit for about $100 including a land line for emergencies and (2) satellite internet at about that speed and price but with a data limit of about 2 streaming movies a month. That's it. There are 50 or so housing units up here, but no cable co is interested or likely to be. The DSL does fine for inet for work and all the HD we care to watch, though, but something cheaper (and more reliable) would be nice. |
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