|
|
Post by davidl81 on Apr 16, 2018 11:18:50 GMT -5
I don't buy that at all. Technology marches forward. Always has and always will. When 4K was first introduced it was not cheap. It's now the norm in TV's. People complained that they could not see the difference in picture quality over 1080p. Those same people, I know some, can now see the difference because the cost has dropped significantly. I'm sure the same will hold true for 8K and so on. 4K is still in it's relative infancy. ATSC 3.0 has been in the works for the last couple of years and will eventually make it's way into our lives depending on cost/benefit ratio. I live in the Washington DC area and remember going to an event at the Tysons Corner Myer Emco for the first over the air broadcast of HDTV. It was on Channel 26, WETA. Big event. The set was a $10K 34 inch Sony XBR tube set. The picture was unbelievable to us in attendance. We thought, "how can it be any better than this?" We have hit the pinnacle! This is it! No better! Then we heard the presenter from WTTG say, "This is the first and worse HDTV picture you will ever see". Meaning, technology marches forward and will always get better. In my lifetime, reaching limits has never happened. There is only so much resolution the human eye can see. 4K resolution is not better than HD for most people. Its the other tech like HDR that makes the differences. 8K by itself will mean nothing for almost everyone. Same goes for the speakers. There is only so much most normal people are willing to accept. It is reaching that point now. Of course things will advance, but we are quickly reaching the point of very little real improvment at each step. In other words, from here on out the improvements will be incremental, not dramatic. Once its gets real, there is no better. There will be less and less reason to upgrade just to upgrade. Instead, uprades will happen when the old piece of equipment dies. I think 8k TV's will become a thing because TV makers will make it a thing. It will be similar to 4k when it came out, no one really wanted/needed it but the TV makers just pushed it. Eventually 8k will come down in price and people will upgrade either their 4k TV or there 1080p sets over time. The issues that this will create on our end is that we will have AVR's (pre/pros) that won't take 8k without upgrades. Then when we eventually buy a 8k TV we will feel like we have to get an upgraded AVR to get the "best" out of or television. This same phenom has happened again and again with electronics and it will keep on until actual holodecks are created, lol. |
|
cawgijoe
Emo VIPs 
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,033
|
Post by cawgijoe on Apr 16, 2018 11:28:10 GMT -5
I don't buy that at all. Technology marches forward. Always has and always will. When 4K was first introduced it was not cheap. It's now the norm in TV's. People complained that they could not see the difference in picture quality over 1080p. Those same people, I know some, can now see the difference because the cost has dropped significantly. I'm sure the same will hold true for 8K and so on. 4K is still in it's relative infancy. ATSC 3.0 has been in the works for the last couple of years and will eventually make it's way into our lives depending on cost/benefit ratio. I live in the Washington DC area and remember going to an event at the Tysons Corner Myer Emco for the first over the air broadcast of HDTV. It was on Channel 26, WETA. Big event. The set was a $10K 34 inch Sony XBR tube set. The picture was unbelievable to us in attendance. We thought, "how can it be any better than this?" We have hit the pinnacle! This is it! No better! Then we heard the presenter from WTTG say, "This is the first and worse HDTV picture you will ever see". Meaning, technology marches forward and will always get better. In my lifetime, reaching limits has never happened. There is only so much resolution the human eye can see. 4K resolution is not better than HD for most people. Its the other tech like HDR that makes the differences. 8K by itself will mean nothing for almost everyone. Same goes for the speakers. There is only so much most normal people are willing to accept. It is reaching that point now. Of course things will advance, but we are quickly reaching the point of very little real improvment at each step. In other words, from here on out the improvements will be incremental, not dramatic. Once its gets real, there is no better. There will be less and less reason to upgrade just to upgrade. Instead, uprades will happen when the old piece of equipment dies. I've heard that and still not buying it. I own a 4K TV with HDR, but "regular" 4K is easy to see the difference between it and standard HD up to ten feet away. Go to Youtube and pull up one of their 4K demo programs and you will see. HDR adds to the PQ. I've already had a few nay sayer friends come over who have "read that their is no difference between 1080p and 4K" and have left wondering what they were reading. Simply untrue. I have not seen 8K, but a good friend of mine who attends the NAB show in Vegas every year has, and says it's incredible. I will make up my mind when I see it. |
|
richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
|
Post by richb on Apr 16, 2018 11:29:21 GMT -5
8K may come to OLED at the largest sizes because it is easier to make them big.
It seems like it is always easier to sell pixels than picture quality, so I would not rule it out.
- Rich
|
|
bootman
Emo VIPs
Typing useless posts on internet forums....
Posts: 9,358
|
Post by bootman on Apr 16, 2018 11:30:32 GMT -5
OEMs have to eat so there will always be the latest and greatest to upgrade to. Then we will complain how our gear doesn't support HDMI v420.1 and we can't get our 16K VR headsets connected to our systems.  |
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Apr 16, 2018 11:31:13 GMT -5
There is only so much resolution the human eye can see. 4K resolution is not better than HD for most people. Its the other tech like HDR that makes the differences. 8K by itself will mean nothing for almost everyone. Same goes for the speakers. There is only so much most normal people are willing to accept. It is reaching that point now. Of course things will advance, but we are quickly reaching the point of very little real improvment at each step. In other words, from here on out the improvements will be incremental, not dramatic. Once its gets real, there is no better. There will be less and less reason to upgrade just to upgrade. Instead, uprades will happen when the old piece of equipment dies. I think 8k TV's will become a thing because TV makers will make it a thing. It will be similar to 4k when it came out, no one really wanted/needed it but the TV makers just pushed it. Eventually 8k will come down in price and people will upgrade either their 4k TV or there 1080p sets over time. The issues that this will create on our end is that we will have AVR's (pre/pros) that won't take 8k without upgrades. Then when we eventually buy a 8k TV we will feel like we have to get an upgraded AVR to get the "best" out of or television. This same phenom has happened again and again with electronics and it will keep on until actual holodecks are created, lol. What you are describing is replacing, not upgrading. Sort of like washing machines. People don't upgrade washing machines just for some new feature while their old machine still works. They just buy the newest one with the features they want when the old one breaks. No doubt, everyone will own an 8K TV at some point because that's all there will be. But at that point people won't just be dumping their still working fine old 4K to upgrade, because the differences will be small. I just hope the first holodeck will come with a Kate Beckinsale sex program.🤣 |
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Apr 16, 2018 11:32:55 GMT -5
OEMs have to eat so there will always be the latest and greatest to upgrade to. Then we will complain how our gear doesn't support HDMI v420.1 and we can't get our 16K VR headsets connected to our systems. This wouldn't be an issue with good old analog connections. 😉 |
|
cawgijoe
Emo VIPs
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,033
|
Post by cawgijoe on Apr 16, 2018 11:33:34 GMT -5
|
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Apr 16, 2018 11:34:17 GMT -5
However..... We'll NEVER know how many people now own a 4k TV because they really wanted 4k and were willing to pay for it..... And how many just wanted a BIGGER TV, bought one this year because bigger screens have gotten so much cheaper, and just ended up with a 4k model because that's what the store had in stock. But, if that's the case, and they just bought the huge TV they've always wanted, they're not going to chuck it in two or three years to get an 8k one the same size unless they really see a difference. To put that differently, if you talk to those people who weren't all that convinced about 4k, it's going to be even HARDER to sell them on 8k. I've talked to quite a few people who, after upgrading to 4k, then again to 4k HDR, seem quite sure that they'll NEVER upgrade again. Another issue is streaming.. and the fact that streaming is replacing discs. As you may have noticed, there are a limited amount of 4k DISCS available.... many people get most of their 4k content via streaming.... and it looks like we may never see 8k DISCS. You also may have noticed that 4k streaming doesn't look as good as a 4k disc; the reason for this is that none of the 4k streaming currently available has the same bandwidth as you get on a disc. (NetFlix 4k has about 1/4 as much bandwidth as a 4k UHD Blu-Ray disc.) Because of this limitation, the gain in picture quality you get by going from an HD STREAM to a 4k STREAM is far less than the gain in quality you get going from an HD DISC to a 4k UHD DISC. And, assuming this trend continues, you may not see much difference between a 4k stream and an 8k stream at all - which is not going to provide much incentive for people to upgrade. Likewise, a lot of people still listen to 5.1 channel systems, about half have upgraded to 7.1 channels, and quite a few have reluctantly added one or two pairs of height speakers. However, it may be unlikely that very many of them will be willing to add yet more speakers, and yet more amplifier channels, unless there is some pretty compelling new technology involved. In short, between 4k and Atmos, we may have hit a sort of technology wall... or at least an obstacle that will slow "the upgrade train" down to a more sane speed than it's been traveling at lately. I guess we'll all eventually find out... Incidentally... ATSC 3.0 will absolutely be coming soon. The reason is that it includes the option to combine broadcast commercials on your screen with locally sold commercials delivered over the Internet. Local broadcast stations see this as their last and best hope to retain relevance - in terms of continuing to sell the advertising space that allows them to stay in business. I know that 8k will come, but it will be a niche because basically no one will need it. 4k is the end for most people. Same goes for audio. 7.1.6 is going to be the end for most people. Anything beyond that is purely niche. Sure there will be products that go farther, but the demand will be so low that they will never become mainstream. Forget about $500 receivers with 9.4.12. Bottom line, we are living in a time where things are reaching certain limits. I don't buy that at all. Technology marches forward. Always has and always will. When 4K was first introduced it was not cheap. It's now the norm in TV's. People complained that they could not see the difference in picture quality over 1080p. Those same people, I know some, can now see the difference because the cost has dropped significantly. I'm sure the same will hold true for 8K and so on. 4K is still in it's relative infancy. ATSC 3.0 has been in the works for the last couple of years and will eventually make it's way into our lives depending on cost/benefit ratio. I live in the Washington DC area and remember going to an event at the Tysons Corner Myer Emco for the first over the air broadcast of HDTV. It was on Channel 26, WETA. Big event. The set was a $10K 34 inch Sony XBR tube set. The picture was unbelievable to us in attendance. We thought, "how can it be any better than this?" We have hit the pinnacle! This is it! No better! Then we heard the presenter from WTTG say, "This is the first and worse HDTV picture you will ever see". Meaning, technology marches forward and will always get better. In my lifetime, reaching limits has never happened. |
|
cawgijoe
Emo VIPs
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,033
|
Post by cawgijoe on Apr 16, 2018 11:35:40 GMT -5
Bonzo.....my father in law used to say...."No one needs more than an AM/FM radio in the car" and "If you want a bigger TV, sit closer".
Cracked me up!
|
|
richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
|
Post by richb on Apr 16, 2018 11:36:09 GMT -5
Great. What year will I a get FIOS TV that delivers a half-way decent 1080i image  - Rich |
|
richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
|
Post by richb on Apr 16, 2018 11:41:55 GMT -5
Incidentally... ATSC 3.0 will absolutely be coming soon. The reason is that it includes the option to combine broadcast commercials on your screen with locally sold commercials delivered over the Internet. Local broadcast stations see this as their last and best hope to retain relevance - in terms of continuing to sell the advertising space that allows them to stay in business. At least, they are focusing on the customer They won't retain relevance. Netflix, Amazon Prime, and others already provide superior image and sound to anything provided by broadcast TV, providing you have the bandwidth. All my sub 30 nieces and nephews do not have cable TV or OTA. There is a trend... - Rich |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Apr 16, 2018 11:44:03 GMT -5
I agree.... mostly. I definitely have SOME 4k content that looks "clearly and obviously better" on my 4k TV. But I also have a lot of older content that simply wasn't made in 4k to begin with... And a lot more content that, while I might be able to see a difference if I squint, I really don't care very much... (Believe it or not, when I'm watching the weather forecast, I really don't care if I can make out all the raindrops behind the commentator.) And an awful lot of people seem quite willing to settle for the reduced quality version of 4k you get with streaming. To phrase that differently....... 4k UHD DISCS clearly look better than 4k streamed content - yet a lot of people seem quite content to settle for streaming anyway. (So apparently there really is a limit as to what people will pay for a little extra quality.) There is only so much resolution the human eye can see. 4K resolution is not better than HD for most people. Its the other tech like HDR that makes the differences. 8K by itself will mean nothing for almost everyone. Same goes for the speakers. There is only so much most normal people are willing to accept. It is reaching that point now. Of course things will advance, but we are quickly reaching the point of very little real improvment at each step. In other words, from here on out the improvements will be incremental, not dramatic. Once its gets real, there is no better. There will be less and less reason to upgrade just to upgrade. Instead, uprades will happen when the old piece of equipment dies. I've heard that and still not buying it. I own a 4K TV with HDR, but "regular" 4K is easy to see the difference between it and standard HD up to ten feet away. Go to Youtube and pull up one of their 4K demo programs and you will see. HDR adds to the PQ. I've already had a few nay sayer friends come over who have "read that their is no difference between 1080p and 4K" and have left wondering what they were reading. Simply untrue. I have not seen 8K, but a good friend of mine who attends the NAB show in Vegas every year has, and says it's incredible. I will make up my mind when I see it. |
|
cawgijoe
Emo VIPs
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,033
|
Post by cawgijoe on Apr 16, 2018 12:29:46 GMT -5
I agree.... mostly. I definitely have SOME 4k content that looks "clearly and obviously better" on my 4k TV. But I also have a lot of older content that simply wasn't made in 4k to begin with... And a lot more content that, while I might be able to see a difference if I squint, I really don't care very much... (Believe it or not, when I'm watching the weather forecast, I really don't care if I can make out all the raindrops behind the commentator.) And an awful lot of people seem quite willing to settle for the reduced quality version of 4k you get with streaming. To phrase that differently....... 4k UHD DISCS clearly look better than 4k streamed content - yet a lot of people seem quite content to settle for streaming anyway. (So apparently there really is a limit as to what people will pay for a little extra quality.) I've heard that and still not buying it. I own a 4K TV with HDR, but "regular" 4K is easy to see the difference between it and standard HD up to ten feet away. Go to Youtube and pull up one of their 4K demo programs and you will see. HDR adds to the PQ. I've already had a few nay sayer friends come over who have "read that their is no difference between 1080p and 4K" and have left wondering what they were reading. Simply untrue. I have not seen 8K, but a good friend of mine who attends the NAB show in Vegas every year has, and says it's incredible. I will make up my mind when I see it. Keith....agree mostly also. 4K bluray with my Oppo 203 is top notch. Neflix "Orignal" programming such as Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Daredevil, is excellent. A step down, but excellent. Some of the Youtube streaming, especially the ones produced by companies such as LG and Samsung to showcase their TV's is incredible. I do agree that folks who are not enthusiasts probably don't really care that much and bought their 4K TV because it was the same price, or close to the 1080p version, or because they had no option. I don't know very many people who own a 4K bluray player. Yet they are saying that 4K disc sales are going at a faster rate than bluray did. I think the physical disc format will continue as long as it remains the best option for PQ and sound and there are people like us who will buy or rent because we want the best. |
|
Lsc
Emo VIPs
Posts: 3,434
Member is Online
|
Post by Lsc on Apr 16, 2018 12:36:34 GMT -5
Streaming is just so much easier than 4K discs.
I’ll probably just sell my 4K blu-ray player along with the discs (no digital copy as I redeemed them).
Also, hopefully with HDMI 2.1 and e-arc, we won’t have to update the HDMI as frequently if we have a limited number of sources.
|
|
cawgijoe
Emo VIPs
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,033
|
Post by cawgijoe on Apr 16, 2018 12:43:11 GMT -5
Incidentally... ATSC 3.0 will absolutely be coming soon. The reason is that it includes the option to combine broadcast commercials on your screen with locally sold commercials delivered over the Internet. Local broadcast stations see this as their last and best hope to retain relevance - in terms of continuing to sell the advertising space that allows them to stay in business. At least, they are focusing on the customer They won't retain relevance. Netflix, Amazon Prime, and others already provide superior image and sound to anything provided by broadcast TV, providing you have the bandwidth. All my sub 30 nieces and nephews do not have cable TV or OTA. There is a trend... - Rich Broadcast TV at 1080i (CBS, NBC) is actually very good. It's slightly better than the PQ you get from the satellite providers. It's better than cable. I don't know about FIOS. OTA will retain relevance due to the fact that you will be able to view 4K content in HDR with Atmos sound quality using an antenna. |
|
richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
|
Post by richb on Apr 16, 2018 12:48:41 GMT -5
At least, they are focusing on the customer They won't retain relevance. Netflix, Amazon Prime, and others already provide superior image and sound to anything provided by broadcast TV, providing you have the bandwidth. All my sub 30 nieces and nephews do not have cable TV or OTA. There is a trend... - Rich Broadcast TV at 1080i (CBS, NBC) is actually very good. It's slightly better than the PQ you get from the satellite providers. It's better than cable. I don't know about FIOS. OTA will retain relevance due to the fact that you will be able to view 4K content in HDR with Atmos sound quality using an antenna. I put up and antenna/lighting rod when HD first came out. Cable caught up and I took it down. It is not going up again. 4K OTA will push cable to match it and allow for 4K content, all good. While ATSC 3.0 may bend the curve for OTA, it is dying. FIOS is not building out the network. 5G will be the broadcast future - Rich |
|
cawgijoe
Emo VIPs
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,033
|
Post by cawgijoe on Apr 16, 2018 12:50:42 GMT -5
Streaming is just so much easier than 4K discs. I’ll probably just sell my 4K blu-ray player along with the discs (no digital copy as I redeemed them). Also, hopefully with HDMI 2.1 and e-arc, we won’t have to update the HDMI as frequently if we have a limited number of sources. Streaming is easier and that's why people like it. My problem is that I want the best quality in picture and sound that I can get. Not all the time, but when it's "movie night", there is nothing like it. I do like streaming, but what bothers me is the fact that they own the show and can pull it anytime they want. If I want to watch "24" for example, I don't think it's currently available to stream right now. There are other examples also where we have looked for something and it's not there. |
|
cawgijoe
Emo VIPs
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,033
|
Post by cawgijoe on Apr 16, 2018 12:59:37 GMT -5
Broadcast TV at 1080i (CBS, NBC) is actually very good. It's slightly better than the PQ you get from the satellite providers. It's better than cable. I don't know about FIOS. OTA will retain relevance due to the fact that you will be able to view 4K content in HDR with Atmos sound quality using an antenna. I put up and antenna/lighting rod when HD first came out. Cable caught up and I took it down. It is not going up again. 4K OTA will push cable to match it and allow for 4K content all good. While ATSC 3.0 may bend the curve for OTA, it is dying. FIOS is not building out the network, 5G will be the broadcast future - Rich I've had a Winegard antenna on my roof for almost thirty years now. Works as well as the day I put it up. Works great. It's also free. Won't be taking it down. OTA is not dying. More people are actually putting up antennas due to cord cutting. Cable, satellite, FIOS, are the ones losing customers due to cord cutting. ATSC 3.0 will also be used with smartphones and tablets. |
|
richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
|
Post by richb on Apr 16, 2018 13:09:33 GMT -5
I put up and antenna/lighting rod when HD first came out. Cable caught up and I took it down. It is not going up again. 4K OTA will push cable to match it and allow for 4K content all good. While ATSC 3.0 may bend the curve for OTA, it is dying. FIOS is not building out the network, 5G will be the broadcast future - Rich I've had a Winegard antenna on my roof for almost thirty years now. Works as well as the day I put it up. Works great. It's also free. Won't be taking it down. OTA is not dying. More people are actually putting up antennas due to cord cutting. Cable, satellite, FIOS, are the ones losing customers due to cord cutting. ATSC 3.0 will also be used with smartphones and tablets. I see that reported and stand corrected. Still, 5G is coming and so cable over IP. If folks and pick the channels they want, the game could be on. Apple and Amazon are also in the game. I'll stick with TiVo for commercial skip, that cannot be compromised. - Rich |
|
Lsc
Emo VIPs
Posts: 3,434
Member is Online
|
Post by Lsc on Apr 16, 2018 13:24:40 GMT -5
Here are some pics of the XMR-1.  |
|
