Official V3 HDMI Board Thread

[richb]

Mar 12, 2019 7:59:12 GMT -5 darien87 said:

Well just had another major bummer related to the XMC. I had my new Samsung TV calibrated last weekend and for some reason the device the calibrator was using would not play nice with the XMC. He couldn't get a picture from the XMC so he was only able to calibrate directly to the TV. All my game systems and 4k players are hooked up to the XMC. So now I have no way of knowing if the picture the XMC is displaying is properly calibrated.

I will say that I am getting a DRASTICALLY different picture from 4k blu-rays to regular ones.

Are you saying that the image directly connected to the TV is drastically different or that the image is different after calibration?


- Rich

[darien87]

Mar 12, 2019 8:56:28 GMT -5 richb said:

Mar 12, 2019 7:59:12 GMT -5 darien87 said:

Well just had another major bummer related to the XMC. I had my new Samsung TV calibrated last weekend and for some reason the device the calibrator was using would not play nice with the XMC. He couldn't get a picture from the XMC so he was only able to calibrate directly to the TV. All my game systems and 4k players are hooked up to the XMC. So now I have no way of knowing if the picture the XMC is displaying is properly calibrated.

I will say that I am getting a DRASTICALLY different picture from 4k blu-rays to regular ones.

Are you saying that the image directly connected to the TV is drastically different or that the image is different after calibration?


- Rich

I'm saying that AFTER calibration when I put in the 4k blu-ray of Incredibles 2 in one of my 4k players and the regular BD version in my PS 3 the pictures were radically different. The colors of the 4k version were a bit muted while the regular BD color was very hot and exaggerated. Reds and blues of the BD version were practically glowing like the characters were radioactive or something. Also blacks were crushed. There was more detail in the blacks of the 4k version than the BD. Like in the black masks that the Incredibles wear, in the regular BD they were just a black blob with eyes in the middle but in the 4k version I could see things like the brigde of their noses better. It almost seemed like there were more colors available in the 4k version that made color transitions smoother while the BD version had less colors to work with so changes between colors were very sharp, if that makes sense.

At first I thought maybe the calibration settings were different between 4k and non-4k but I checked them and they were the same.

I got the same impression from the 4k and regular BD versions of Ghost in the Shell also. Colors were actually brighter in the regular BD version but they seemed exaggerated while the 4k version looked more natural. It was sort of like if I had turned "Vivid" move on the TV when watching the regular BD version and then switched back to "Natural" while watching the 4k.

Both players I was using are playing through the XMC. Could it be that the calibration has just brought out the differences between the 4k and regular Blu-rays more?

[fbczar]

Mar 13, 2019 0:06:07 GMT -5 darien87 said:

Mar 12, 2019 8:56:28 GMT -5 richb said:

Are you saying that the image directly connected to the TV is drastically different or that the image is different after calibration?


- Rich

I'm saying that AFTER calibration when I put in the 4k blu-ray of Incredibles 2 in one of my 4k players and the regular BD version in my PS 3 the pictures were radically different. The colors of the 4k version were a bit muted while the regular BD color was very hot and exaggerated. Reds and blues of the BD version were practically glowing like the characters were radioactive or something. Also blacks were crushed. There was more detail in the blacks of the 4k version than the BD. Like in the black masks that the Incredibles wear, in the regular BD they were just a black blob with eyes in the middle but in the 4k version I could see things like the brigde of their noses better. It almost seemed like there were more colors available in the 4k version that made color transitions smoother while the BD version had less colors to work with so changes between colors were very sharp, if that makes sense.

At first I thought maybe the calibration settings were different between 4k and non-4k but I checked them and they were the same.

I got the same impression from the 4k and regular BD versions of Ghost in the Shell also. Colors were actually brighter in the regular BD version but they seemed exaggerated while the 4k version looked more natural. It was sort of like if I had turned "Vivid" move on the TV when watching the regular BD version and then switched back to "Natural" while watching the 4k.

Both players I was using are playing through the XMC. Could it be that the calibration has just brought out the differences between the 4k and regular Blu-rays more?

darien87, Did you check the settings in in your 4K Bluray player? Some players allow for settings specifically for 4K HDR, others do not.  It may be that you have an issue with the color gamut settings. I think your first inclination that the settings are different for 4K UHD and Bluray was probably correct. You should ask your calibrator for a chart of the settings he used in the TV and the Bluray player.

[Gary Cook]

Mar 13, 2019 0:06:07 GMT -5 darien87 said:

I'm saying that AFTER calibration when I put in the 4k blu-ray of Incredibles 2 in one of my 4k players and the regular BD version in my PS 3 the pictures were radically different. The colors of the 4k version were a bit muted while the regular BD color was very hot and exaggerated. Reds and blues of the BD version were practically glowing like the characters were radioactive or something. Also blacks were crushed. There was more detail in the blacks of the 4k version than the BD. Like in the black masks that the Incredibles wear, in the regular BD they were just a black blob with eyes in the middle but in the 4k version I could see things like the brigde of their noses better. It almost seemed like there were more colors available in the 4k version that made color transitions smoother while the BD version had less colors to work with so changes between colors were very sharp, if that makes sense.

At first I thought maybe the calibration settings were different between 4k and non-4k but I checked them and they were the same.

I got the same impression from the 4k and regular BD versions of Ghost in the Shell also. Colors were actually brighter in the regular BD version but they seemed exaggerated while the 4k version looked more natural. It was sort of like if I had turned "Vivid" move on the TV when watching the regular BD version and then switched back to "Natural" while watching the 4k.

Both players I was using are playing through the XMC. Could it be that the calibration has just brought out the differences between the 4k and regular Blu-rays more?

Your TV doesn’t have enough nits for 4K HDR. So the overall picture is less “bright” than for HD (non HDR) which it does have enough nits for.

Cheers
Gary

[darien87]

Mar 13, 2019 15:17:48 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

Your TV doesn’t have enough nits for 4K HDR. So the overall picture is less “bright” than for HD (non HDR) which it does have enough nits for.

Cheers
Gary

The weird thing is that pre-calibration I would have said the opposite. Pre-calibration, the picture of the regular BD was less vibrant than the 4k version. Now that seems to be switched. Although the picture on the regular BD version is so bright and exaggerated as to be unpleasant.

I'll try taking some pictures to show what I'm talking about. Hopefully it will show up on a photo.

[richb]

Mar 13, 2019 0:06:07 GMT -5 darien87 said:

Mar 12, 2019 8:56:28 GMT -5 richb said:

Are you saying that the image directly connected to the TV is drastically different or that the image is different after calibration?


- Rich

I'm saying that AFTER calibration when I put in the 4k blu-ray of Incredibles 2 in one of my 4k players and the regular BD version in my PS 3 the pictures were radically different. The colors of the 4k version were a bit muted while the regular BD color was very hot and exaggerated. Reds and blues of the BD version were practically glowing like the characters were radioactive or something. Also blacks were crushed. There was more detail in the blacks of the 4k version than the BD. Like in the black masks that the Incredibles wear, in the regular BD they were just a black blob with eyes in the middle but in the 4k version I could see things like the brigde of their noses better. It almost seemed like there were more colors available in the 4k version that made color transitions smoother while the BD version had less colors to work with so changes between colors were very sharp, if that makes sense.

At first I thought maybe the calibration settings were different between 4k and non-4k but I checked them and they were the same.

I got the same impression from the 4k and regular BD versions of Ghost in the Shell also. Colors were actually brighter in the regular BD version but they seemed exaggerated while the 4k version looked more natural. It was sort of like if I had turned "Vivid" move on the TV when watching the regular BD version and then switched back to "Natural" while watching the 4k.

Both players I was using are playing through the XMC. Could it be that the calibration has just brought out the differences between the 4k and regular Blu-rays more?

I am not familiar with Samsung TV's but I would expect that there should be completely different settings for SDR (BD) and UHD/HDR. They have completely different brightness ranges. SDR uses gamma and HDR uses PQ-EOTF (an absolute brightness level).

Are you sure that your player is not "upscaling" your SDR BD's to UHD? That would account for the blow out and the same settings.

- Rich

[richb]

Mar 13, 2019 15:26:00 GMT -5 darien87 said:

Mar 13, 2019 15:17:48 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

Your TV doesn’t have enough nits for 4K HDR. So the overall picture is less “bright” than for HD (non HDR) which it does have enough nits for.

Cheers
Gary

The weird thing is that pre-calibration I would have said the opposite. Pre-calibration, the picture of the regular BD was less vibrant than the 4k version. Now that seems to be switched. Although the picture on the regular BD version is so bright and exaggerated as to be unpleasant.

I'll try taking some pictures to show what I'm talking about. Hopefully it will show up on a photo.

Displays that cannot produce the full luminance of a title will tone-map using the max luminance and other static metadata provided by the UHD source.
UHD uses the PQ-EOTF which means that, in theory, a display can display exactly the luminance as the master.

When the display cannot meet the title's brightness, it can tone-map. Each display does this differently.
Aggressive tone-mapping, as in the LG C7, can start dimming the picture well below 100 nits on titles mastered on a 4000 nit display.
This has the effect of lowering the average picture level, making the UHD image darker.

Even some reviewers, have found the UHD to be darker, but may not realize that this is a feature of their display, not the title.

I use an HDFury Vertex to override the static metadata to stop the LG from applying over aggressive tone-mapping. Some highlights have less detail but I prefer that to APL reduction.

You may want to contact your calibrator or visit a forum on your display to see if there are tone-mapping options.

- Rich

[darien87]

Mar 13, 2019 16:43:37 GMT -5 richb said:

Displays that cannot produce the full luminance of a title will tone-map using the max luminance and other static metadata provided by the UHD source.
UHD uses the PQ-EOTF which means that, in theory, a display can display exactly the luminance as the master.

When the display cannot meet the title's brightness, it can tone-map. Each display does this differently.
Aggressive tone-mapping, as in the LG C7, can start dimming the picture well below 100 nits on titles mastered on a 4000 nit display.
This has the effect of lowering the average picture level, making the UHD image darker.

Even some reviewers, have found the UHD to be darker, but may not realize that this is a feature of their display, not the title.

I use an HDFury Vertex to override the static metadata to stop the LG from applying over aggressive tone-mapping. Some highlights have less detail but I prefer that to APL reduction.

You may want to contact your calibrator or visit a forum on your display to see if there are tone-mapping options.

- Rich

The player I was using for the 4k BD's was the Panny 820, but the tone mapping feature was turned off so it should have just been giving me an unprocessed UHD image.

In answer to your previous question, the player I was using for the regular BD's was the PS3. So no ability to upscale there. But I put a BD in the other 4k player I have which is also made by Sony and that one had the same crazy colors as the PS3. I don't know if that player was trying to upscale. It might have been. I am wondering if it has something to do with Sony players? I believe I have an older Samsung BD player in the house. I might try hooking that one up and seeing what the colors look like just for shits and giggles.

[fschris]

Does anyone in here use FooBar for Music Playback?

After my upgrade I have to select different output devices such as

Wasapi - XMC-1 Event
Wasapi - XMC-1 PUSH
DSD- XMC-1


This is odd because before the 4k upgrade I never had to do this. I could play all my High Rez music without any issues. (DVD-A, SACD, ISO, Multi Ch Music)

If I don't make the changes for each specific file type I just hear some garbled audio. I am thinking about taking a video of this.

** I can get the music to play but having to switch things is very annoying.

I am trying to use JRiver but that is a cluster as well.


Any thoughts? I don't even know where to post this issue.

Chris

[cwt]

Mar 13, 2019 18:10:47 GMT -5 darien87 said:

The player I was using for the 4k BD's was the Panny 820, but the tone mapping feature was turned off so it should have just been giving me an unprocessed UHD image.

The way you describe the colour gamut of uhd and sd blurays darien reads like your applying sd video to a bt2020 colour gamut when it should be rec709 ? The gamma
seems more even as it should with the uhd source.

At first I thought maybe the calibration settings were different between 4k and non-4k but I checked them and they were the same.

Unless Ime interpreting this comment wrong ;which is entirely possible but I didn't notice you say any switching between gamuts happening ?

[darien87]

So I checked again last night and found that the TV settings are indeed different between SDR and HDR discs. With SDR the TV is in BT.1886 color space. The calibrator remarked that it was strange that he was not able to change the color space when doing the calibration. Apparently my Samsung TV chooses the color space "based upon the content". But last night when I looked at the 4k version of Incredibles 2 the TV was in ST.2084 and the settings that were made during the calibration, (which was in BT.1886) were not there. So basically I got half a calibration.

I'm going to call the calibrator and have him come back out to re-do the calibration in the ST.2084 space as well. Hopefully his equipment can generate HDR test signals.

[KeithL]

I'm not quite sure what you have going on - but it seems to involve how things are set up.

The first question that comes to mind is whether you're using USB or HDMI for the audio...

(Everything is going to be different depending on whether you're using USB or HDMI.)

I use FooBar2000 - via USB - and using WASAPI mode...

The XMC-1 DOES NOT support DSD playback via USB...

(The XMC-1 only supports pure DSD playback via HDMI.)

I also use the FooSACD plugin to play SACD ISOs in FooBar2000.

Therefore, if I play a DSD file through the XMC-1 using USB, FooBar2000 converts it to PCM on the fly.

Normally FooBar knows that we don't accept DSD and so converts it to PCM on the fly.

However, the new firmware that goes with the new HDMI card is slightly different, so we may have changed something that now sometimes causes FooBar to become confused.

(However, if you're using USB, then there's no reason to select DSD-WASAPI, since FooBar will be converting the output to PCM anyway... and the solution would be to select one of the other WASAPI modes.)

The XMC-1 DOES support DSD via HDMI.... and some player programs do support sending an audio bitstream via HDMI.

I'm afraid I don't know the details about how to do that in FooBar, but it is going to depend on the exact video card, player software, and Windows version you use.

However, again, since the new firmware is different, it's possible that some slight change we've made is causing FooBar to act slightly differently.

(Which may require some setting changes in your software.)

Mar 13, 2019 20:18:17 GMT -5 fschris said:

Does anyone in here use FooBar for Music Playback?

After my upgrade I have to select different output devices such as

Wasapi - XMC-1 Event
Wasapi - XMC-1 PUSH
DSD- XMC-1


This is odd because before the 4k upgrade I never had to do this. I could play all my High Rez music without any issues. (DVD-A, SACD, ISO, Multi Ch Music)

If I don't make the changes for each specific file type I just hear some garbled audio. I am thinking about taking a video of this.

** I can get the music to play but having to switch things is very annoying.

I am trying to use JRiver but that is a cluster as well.


Any thoughts? I don't even know where to post this issue.

Chris

[richb]

Mar 14, 2019 7:51:24 GMT -5 darien87 said:

So I checked again last night and found that the TV settings are indeed different between SDR and HDR discs. With SDR the TV is in BT.1886 color space. The calibrator remarked that it was strange that he was not able to change the color space when doing the calibration. Apparently my Samsung TV chooses the color space "based upon the content". But last night when I looked at the 4k version of Incredibles 2 the TV was in ST.2084 and the settings that were made during the calibration, (which was in BT.1886) were not there. So basically I got half a calibration.

I'm going to call the calibrator and have him come back out to re-do the calibration in the ST.2084 space as well. Hopefully his equipment can generate HDR test signals.

BT.1886 is an alternative SDR gamma setting. In displays that can achieve zero luminance (absolute black), it is the same a gamma 2.4.
ST.2084 gamma is for HDR. Suggesting that SDR is not upscaled.

BT709 is the color space used by BD and some broadcast.
BT2020 is the color space used for UHD.

What I and others have postulated is that your SDR content is being up-samples to a wider color gamut resulting in the intense color that you are reporting.

The SDR colors suggest that a wider color gamut is being used.
You might check those as well.
Did you calibrator supply after calibration reports for SDR and HDR?

- Rich

[darien87]

Mar 14, 2019 14:13:09 GMT -5 richb said:

What I and others have postulated is that your SDR content is being up-samples to a wider color gamut resulting in the intense color that you are reporting.

The SDR colors suggest that a wider color gamut is being used.
You might check those as well.
Did you calibrator supply after calibration reports for SDR and HDR?

- Rich

I called the calibrator today and he said he would come back out and take a look. But like I previously noted when he was doing his calibration the TV would only let him select the BT.1886 gamut so he only did the calibration there. I'm hoping that if I start playing a 4k disc the TV will switch over to ST.2084 and he can calibrate that space. I'm not sure if that will work though. I called Samsung tech support and of course they had no idea.

Fingers crossed.

[klinemj]

Mar 14, 2019 17:38:45 GMT -5 darien87 said:

Mar 14, 2019 14:13:09 GMT -5 richb said:

What I and others have postulated is that your SDR content is being up-samples to a wider color gamut resulting in the intense color that you are reporting.

The SDR colors suggest that a wider color gamut is being used.
You might check those as well.
Did you calibrator supply after calibration reports for SDR and HDR?

- Rich

I called the calibrator today and he said he would come back out and take a look. But like I previously noted when he was doing his calibration the TV would only let him select the BT.1886 gamut so he only did the calibration there. I'm hoping that if I start playing a 4k disc the TV will switch over to ST.2084 and he can calibrate that space. I'm not sure if that will work though. I called Samsung tech support and of course they had no idea.

Fingers crossed.

I've never had a TV calibrated - because my eyes are so far out of calibration. But, I would think this is something a calibrator would know how to do...or at least I hope they would.

Mark

[Casey Leedom]

KeithL, a lot of the "Automatic DSD USB Goodness" depends on the USB Vendor and Device IDs that the USB Sink presents to the USB Source. Apparently the USB Audio Specification doesn't have anything to say about DSD at all and so the various USB Source Drivers use the USB Vendor and Device ID to determine if the USB Sink Device can handle DSD Audio — either in DSD over PCM or "Native DSD" — and then act accordingly. If you look at the Linux kernel source file sound/usb/quirks.c you'll see what I'm talking about. This is why I've asked multiple time what USB Vendor and Device ID the RMC-1 presents to the peer Usb Source Device.

Casey

[thrillcat]

Mar 14, 2019 17:43:53 GMT -5 klinemj said:

I've never had a TV calibrated - because my eyes are so far out of calibration. But, I would think this is something a calibrator would know how to do...or at least I hope they would.

Mark

If they don't, I think I might be shopping for a different calibrator.


Your display obviously has different modes, and it will obviously switch between them, as you've experienced. If your calibrator is not able to figure out how to send the display the proper format to calibrate, I think you need a new calibrator.

[darien87]

Mar 15, 2019 9:04:02 GMT -5 thrillcat said:

Mar 14, 2019 17:43:53 GMT -5 klinemj said:

I've never had a TV calibrated - because my eyes are so far out of calibration. But, I would think this is something a calibrator would know how to do...or at least I hope they would.

Mark

If they don't, I think I might be shopping for a different calibrator.


Your display obviously has different modes, and it will obviously switch between them, as you've experienced. If your calibrator is not able to figure out how to send the display the proper format to calibrate, I think you need a new calibrator.

Well it is just Best Buy Geek Squad we're talking about here but I thought they would be able to handle this.

I'll probably start calling around for independent companies and check their pricing and capabilities.

[richb]

Mar 15, 2019 9:31:00 GMT -5 darien87 said:

Mar 15, 2019 9:04:02 GMT -5 thrillcat said:

If they don't, I think I might be shopping for a different calibrator.


Your display obviously has different modes, and it will obviously switch between them, as you've experienced. If your calibrator is not able to figure out how to send the display the proper format to calibrate, I think you need a new calibrator.

Well it is just Best Buy Geek Squad we're talking about here but I thought they would be able to handle this.

I'll probably start calling around for independent companies and check their pricing and capabilities.

Your experience is inline with others that have used BB.

You may want to check out AVS calibration threads.

ChadB calibrated my 2016 LG and he is highly recommended. D-Nice is also considered the top-tier.
I have two meters and will be doing my own from now on.
Auto-calibration is advancing and LG 2019 have built-in pattern generation (FINALLY!).
Calibration is getting easier for the home enthusiast.

- Rich

[thrillcat]