KlineMJ's Sonore microRendu/Roon Review

[klinemj]

And 334 is more than 320, so...I'd say any of us with that can decode and render MQA. Will try it tomorrow.

Mark

[novisnick]

My tablet build is (333) and my core build is (334)

iPad remote.

[sahmen]

Jul 22, 2018 12:56:05 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Thanks guys...this link I found just now is the clearest info I found on MQA decoding/rendering. --->SEE THIS LINK!!!<--- So much of most links speaks in "jargon" that it's not understandable by typical humans.

I'll try Roon with the MQA decoder and renderer enabled next and see what it does. I'll try it through the microRendu as the Roon endpoint, as well as my Geek as endpoint.

Mark

Talking about jargon, my very favoritest expression from the site you linked is...

wait for it...

Music Origami,

which brings all kinds of images to mind, including that of "dancing origami"  

  
 

[klinemj]

Jul 20, 2018 21:45:38 GMT -5 gld3gld3 said:

If there are different versions of the same album they will show up in the "versions" tab in Roon once you click on an album. You can then select the one you want to play or which one you want to be the primary version in your library. For example, if Tidal has an MQA version of an album it most likely also has a non-mqa version you can play. To access the non-mqa version you often have to select it in the versions tab, since the MQA version is default.You can add other versions of an album to your library so that they are visible when you select an artist.

And this ended up being the key! Indeed, when I click the "versions" tab, they show. Perfect! I was out of town when you suggested it so I could not check it, then I forgot your suggestion once I got home...until Roon support responded with an answer to my question and they told me just what you did. Thanks!

Mark

[klinemj]

So, I turned on the MQA capabilities within Roon so it will decode and render. So far, I am playing USB out of my PC to my GEEK DAC, which Roon sees as an endpoint. I'm going to play around with this setup for a while and go back to listen to some music I thought was poorly recorded/engineered and see again what it sounds like before I switch back to the MR and listen to those same tunes again.

Mark

[klinemj]

So, while I had the USB line connected to the PC to test out the GEEK DAC as a Roon Endpoint, I went back and listened to the same tunes from Linda Ronstadt, Carole King, and Jackson Brown I comments on a few pages back. And to the point monkumonku made about "perhaps I just noticed certain things because I was listening closer - I ended up hearing the exact same differences I commented on before. Details of each singers' voice because more evident and even many little details on many instruments were more clear. To the "chuckle" on Jackson Browne, I did hear it with my old setup - but it wasn't as clear. In fact, one could almost be mistaken for a slight warble of his voice more than a chuckle whereas with the MR - there's not doubt.

Net, I'm leaning very strongly to getting a MR.

With Roon, I'm not totally sold yet. It's nice, but is it $500 better than jRiver/Tidal? Not convinced yet. The nicest part is having everything in 1 place and being able to easily see and choose from different versions of a given album (now that I finally figured out how to do that...with some help from Lounge Members and Roon support), but that's a "nice" thing vs. a "must have.

Also with Roon, I came across an oddity with its MQA decoding/rendering.

When I have "No MQA Support" and I choose an album that Tidal has both as MQA and CD - and I choose the CD version my DAC shows 44.1 khz as expected. When I choose the MQA version - my DAC shows 96 khz - again as expected.

But, if I select "Decoder and Renderer" within Roon's seetings and go to the same MQA version of the same album, my DAC shows 48 khz. Per what Roon is showing about the album in question, it can play as FLAC at 48 khz/24 bit or MQA at 96 Khz.

So, it appears that when Roon is set to be an MQA Decoder/Renderer, it's choosing to play to 48 khz/24 bit FLAC vs. not the 96K MQA version. And, if I switch to having Roon be "decoder only", it does the same thing. If I choose "renderer only", then it plays the 96khz MQA version.

Odd...I'll check in w/Roon support on that also. I just might not be understanding MQA correctly or there could be a bug in their software...it's new so...who knows.

Mark

[DYohn]

I may be wrong because, as I said earlier I don't do Tidal nor MQA, but Roon will likely use whatever the DAC tells it that it supports, meaning if the DAC is MQA certified then it will pass through the full file. But like I said, I am only guessing. This is based on some early experiments of mine using a 16/44.1 only DAC and seeing Roon pass high-res files as 16/44.1.

[novisnick]

Jul 23, 2018 14:56:31 GMT -5 DYohn said:

I may be wrong because, as I said earlier I don't do Tidal nor MQA, but Roon will likely use whatever the DAC tells it that it supports, meaning if the DAC is MQA certified then it will pass through the full file. But like I said, I am only guessing. This is based on some early experiments of mine using a 16/44.1 only DAC and seeing Roon pass high-res files as 16/44.1.

My take on this is that Roon will pass the full MQA file forward and Tidal will do the same but unless the end DAC is an MQA endpoint decoder you will not get the full benefits of MQA. The MQA DAC is the only device that will do the final unfolding.

[klinemj]

Jul 23, 2018 14:56:31 GMT -5 DYohn said:

I may be wrong because, as I said earlier I don't do Tidal nor MQA, but Roon will likely use whatever the DAC tells it that it supports, meaning if the DAC is MQA certified then it will pass through the full file. But like I said, I am only guessing. This is based on some early experiments of mine using a 16/44.1 only DAC and seeing Roon pass high-res files as 16/44.1.

If it were not for the fact that if I turn off "MQA Compatibilty" in Roon, it shows 96 khz...I would think the situation is what you say. But, my DAC does end up playing at 96 khz with the Roon unfolding turned off.

I sent a note to Roon Support. I'll see what they say.

Mark

[klinemj]

Never mind - i figured it out...I think.

From the Roon Knowledge Base, I found this statement: "If you have an MQA capable DAC or other audio device, double-check the Device Setup screen for that zone to make sure that Roon is reflecting your DAC’s MQA capabilities correctly. Some audio devices do not support auto-detection of their MQA capabilities, so in those cases you may need to configure the device manually." And this one "I don’t have an MQA DAC, how does DSP work in Roon?
First, Roon will decode the MQA file or stream to an MQA Core stream. This produces a PCM stream at 88.2kHz or 96kHz. Then, any selected DSP is applied to that stream, and the output is sent to your DAC"

So, i was thinking that the "no MQA capabilities" setting meant none were being used. As it turns out, that's the setting to tell Roon what capabilities my DAC has. If it has none (which mine doesn't), the I should set it at "No MQA capabilities". If it does have them, I should choose which ones my DAC has. I was thinking in reverse...

Mark

[klinemj]

Also this: "How does Roon handle MQA content?
Roon has partnered with MQA Ltd to properly support decoding and handling MQA files and streams end to end. This new feature allows all Roon users – those with MQA-capable hardware and those without – to experience MQA content to the fullest extent possible with their audio hardware."

Net, novisnick - I can indeed get the full benefits of MQA without an MQA DAC now w/Roon. now that is a plus for Roon.

Mark

[novisnick]

Jul 23, 2018 19:38:20 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Also this: "How does Roon handle MQA content?
Roon has partnered with MQA Ltd to properly support decoding and handling MQA files and streams end to end. This new feature allows all Roon users – those with MQA-capable hardware and those without – to experience MQA content to the fullest extent possible with their audio hardware."

Net, novisnick - I can indeed get the full benefits of MQA without an MQA DAC now w/Roon. now that is a plus for Roon.

Mark

I am a skeptic my friend. Smell the momey! All those dollars that will miss from licensing hardware that does the last unfolding of MQA.  Im not saying that Roon doesn’t do this or support it but I’m a skeptic. Would you pass on all those dollars if you didn’t have to. There may be more to this, and maybe not. I haven’t an inside information, just a sneaky intuition.

I sure would/will be a huge win for us endusers thats for sure.

“to the fullest extent possible with their audio hardware." This sentence has a smell to it in my opinion. 
Daddy always said that if it seems too good to be true,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Im not trying to be a Debbie Downer! Its a gut feeling ! 

[klinemj]

Jul 23, 2018 19:50:54 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Jul 23, 2018 19:38:20 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Also this: "How does Roon handle MQA content?
Roon has partnered with MQA Ltd to properly support decoding and handling MQA files and streams end to end. This new feature allows all Roon users – those with MQA-capable hardware and those without – to experience MQA content to the fullest extent possible with their audio hardware."

Net, novisnick - I can indeed get the full benefits of MQA without an MQA DAC now w/Roon. now that is a plus for Roon.

Mark

I am a skeptic my friend. Smell the momey! All those dollars that will miss from licensing hardware that does the last unfolding of MQA.  Im not saying that Roon doesn’t do this or support it but I’m a skeptic. Would you pass on all those dollars if you didn’t have to. There may be more to this, and maybe not. I haven’t an inside information, just a sneaky intuition.

I sure would/will be a huge win for us endusers thats for sure.

“to the fullest extent possible with their audio hardware." This sentence has a smell to it in my opinion. 
Daddy always said that if it seems too good to be true,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Im not trying to be a Debbie Downer! Its a gut feeling ! 

I have a feeling that $ are flowing from Roon to MQA folks for this feature. Also realize, some won't get an MQA DAC, so if the MQA folks can make $ from Roon users than they do from MQA DAC builders - it's a great deal for the MQA folks.

Mark

[jdmusante]

Jul 23, 2018 19:50:54 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Jul 23, 2018 19:38:20 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Also this: "How does Roon handle MQA content?
Roon has partnered with MQA Ltd to properly support decoding and handling MQA files and streams end to end. This new feature allows all Roon users – those with MQA-capable hardware and those without – to experience MQA content to the fullest extent possible with their audio hardware."

Net, novisnick - I can indeed get the full benefits of MQA without an MQA DAC now w/Roon. now that is a plus for Roon.

Mark

I am a skeptic my friend. Smell the momey! All those dollars that will miss from licensing hardware that does the last unfolding of MQA.  Im not saying that Roon doesn’t do this or support it but I’m a skeptic. Would you pass on all those dollars if you didn’t have to. There may be more to this, and maybe not. I haven’t an inside information, just a sneaky intuition.

I sure would/will be a huge win for us endusers thats for sure.

“to the fullest extent possible with their audio hardware." This sentence has a smell to it in my opinion. 
Daddy always said that if it seems too good to be true,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Im not trying to be a Debbie Downer! Its a gut feeling ! 

What does this last 'unfold' actually do to the file/sound? I'm not sure I can tell the difference sonically with what Roon is now telling me via the signal path.

After reading this thread the last couple of days, I finally got around to flashing the firmware on my Oppo 205 UBS DAC. Now it can decode MQA. Before I upgraded the firmware and was playing it through the analog outs, it would say there was 'MQA Authentication' only. With the USB DAC, it shows an 'MQA Full Decoder' step in the signal path along with the 'MQA Authentication'.

Does the decoder even matter if you are using Roon? What am I getting with the decoding?

[novisnick]

Jul 23, 2018 20:57:09 GMT -5 jdmusante said:

Jul 23, 2018 19:50:54 GMT -5 novisnick said:

I am a skeptic my friend. Smell the momey! All those dollars that will miss from licensing hardware that does the last unfolding of MQA.  Im not saying that Roon doesn’t do this or support it but I’m a skeptic. Would you pass on all those dollars if you didn’t have to. There may be more to this, and maybe not. I haven’t an inside information, just a sneaky intuition.

I sure would/will be a huge win for us endusers thats for sure.

“to the fullest extent possible with their audio hardware." This sentence has a smell to it in my opinion. 
Daddy always said that if it seems too good to be true,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Im not trying to be a Debbie Downer! Its a gut feeling ! 

What does this last 'unfold' actually do to the file/sound? I'm not sure I can tell the difference sonically with what Roon is now telling me via the signal path.

After reading this thread the last couple of days, I finally got around to flashing the firmware on my Oppo 205 UBS DAC. Now it can decode MQA. Before I upgraded the firmware and was playing it through the analog outs, it would say there was 'MQA Authentication' only. With the USB DAC, it shows an 'MQA Full Decoder' step in the signal path along with the 'MQA Authentication'.

Does the decoder even matter if you are using Roon? What am I getting with the decoding?

Im not the last word or authority on MQA but from what I do understand the last unfold gets the top cream of the music. If you can still hear it at whatever age the listener is. That said you should get 24 bit 192 kHz from the last unfold. Otherwise I believe you get24 bit / 96 kHz.   Enjoy the music!

[klinemj]

Jul 23, 2018 21:09:14 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Jul 23, 2018 20:57:09 GMT -5 jdmusante said:

What does this last 'unfold' actually do to the file/sound? I'm not sure I can tell the difference sonically with what Roon is now telling me via the signal path.

After reading this thread the last couple of days, I finally got around to flashing the firmware on my Oppo 205 UBS DAC. Now it can decode MQA. Before I upgraded the firmware and was playing it through the analog outs, it would say there was 'MQA Authentication' only. With the USB DAC, it shows an 'MQA Full Decoder' step in the signal path along with the 'MQA Authentication'.

Does the decoder even matter if you are using Roon? What am I getting with the decoding?

Im not the last word or authority on MQA but from what I do understand the last unfold gets the top cream of the music. If you can still hear it at whatever age the listener is. That said you should get 24 bit 192 kHz from the last unfold. Otherwise I believe you get24 bit / 96 kHz.   Enjoy the music!

That is my understanding also - with 1 caveat...that being, it seems that many MQA files I am looking at in Tidal are 96 khz MQA. If that's the case, then for that file - the most you will ever get is 96 khz. If there are options at 192 khz, then the first unfold would only give you 24 bit 96 khz. Said another way...until there is a lot of 192 khz MQA content out there, the first unfold is as good as it could get for most files.

Mark

[novisnick]

Jul 23, 2018 21:23:53 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Jul 23, 2018 21:09:14 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Im not the last word or authority on MQA but from what I do understand the last unfold gets the top cream of the music. If you can still hear it at whatever age the listener is. That said you should get 24 bit 192 kHz from the last unfold. Otherwise I believe you get24 bit / 96 kHz.   Enjoy the music!

That is my understanding also - with 1 caveat...that being, it seems that many MQA files I am looking at in Tidal are 96 khz MQA. If that's the case, then for that file - the most you will ever get is 96 khz. If there are options at 192 khz, then the first unfold would only give you 24 bit 96 khz. Said another way...until there is a lot of 192 khz MQA content out there, the first unfold is as good as it could get for most files.

Mark

So very true! 👍🎶🎶🎶🎶

[klinemj]

Jul 23, 2018 19:35:33 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Never mind - i figured it out...I think.

From the Roon Knowledge Base, I found this statement: "If you have an MQA capable DAC or other audio device, double-check the Device Setup screen for that zone to make sure that Roon is reflecting your DAC’s MQA capabilities correctly. Some audio devices do not support auto-detection of their MQA capabilities, so in those cases you may need to configure the device manually." And this one "I don’t have an MQA DAC, how does DSP work in Roon?
First, Roon will decode the MQA file or stream to an MQA Core stream. This produces a PCM stream at 88.2kHz or 96kHz. Then, any selected DSP is applied to that stream, and the output is sent to your DAC"

So, i was thinking that the "no MQA capabilities" setting meant none were being used. As it turns out, that's the setting to tell Roon what capabilities my DAC has. If it has none (which mine doesn't), the I should set it at "No MQA capabilities". If it does have them, I should choose which ones my DAC has. I was thinking in reverse...

Mark

Roon support responded to my question to them and did indeed confirm the above was correct - I was indeed misunderstanding what the setting "No MQA Capability" meant. That "button" and the things that pull down from it are to refer to what your DAC's capabilities are - not to turn on functions in Roon. It's not immediately clear so I misunderstood. Now I know better! Since my Geek is not an MQA DAC, I should select "No MQA Capability" and then Roon will do what it can to get the best sound possible.

Mark

[spom409]

Hi Mark

Thanks for taking the time to share this info.
I'm evaluating Tidal and Roon now.

Question: Have you tried connecting the Sonore MR to the Streaming USB input of your XMC-1?
Would that introduce any limitations?

Thanks
Steve

[klinemj]

Jul 24, 2018 15:58:20 GMT -5 spom409 said:

Hi Mark

Thanks for taking the time to share this info.
I'm evaluating Tidal and Roon now.

Question: Have you tried connecting the Sonore MR to the Streaming USB input of your XMC-1?
Would that introduce any limitations?

Thanks
Steve

I have not done that, but I don't think it would introduce any new limitations. I inputting to my outboard DAC just because I like its sound better than the XMC's 2 channel DAC. I have, in the past run USB in to the XMC-1 and it worked fine.

What are you using as your Roon Core and Endpoint at this point?

Mark