KlineMJ's Sonore microRendu/Roon Review

[spom409]

Hi Mark

For the Core I am currently using a MACBook Pro.
Music is on a (HP) NAS and Tidal.

Testing across 2 room systems.

Testing various endponts:
HT
The MAC itself plugged into the XMC-1 (USB) DAC (Temporary)
Apple TV (HDMI) to XMC-1
Sonos Connect (Optical) to XMC-1

2 Channel
Logitech Squeezebox Duet to a 2 channel system (USP-1) with RCAs.

Trying to figure out what should be changed (without breakng the bank)in both the HT and 2 Channel system to get the best quality out of Tidal and lossless NAS files.
Would prefer to start with the 2 channel system.

Steve

[klinemj]

Jul 24, 2018 17:02:29 GMT -5 spom409 said:

Hi Mark

For the Core I am currently using a MACBook Pro.
Music is on a (HP) NAS and Tidal.

Testing across 2 room systems.

Testing various endponts:
HT
The MAC itself plugged into the XMC-1 (USB) DAC (Temporary)
Apple TV (HDMI) to XMC-1
Sonos Connect (Optical) to XMC-1

2 Channel
Logitech Squeezebox Duet to a 2 channel system (USP-1) with RCAs.

Trying to figure out what should be changed (without breakng the bank)in both the HT and 2 Channel system to get the best quality out of Tidal and lossless NAS files.
Would prefer to start with the 2 channel system.

Steve

If you look at my system, you'll see I have a lot of Sonos. And, I used to have more. I sold some mainly because for 2 channel they were good but they can't handle MQA files from Tidal. So, I've been working out of using Sonos for my critical listening in 2 channel. If you want to focus on your 2 channel first, my suggestion would be to feed your USP-1 from a high quality DAC. As far as the approach for how to get tunes off your NAS and via Tidal to the DAC...so many options to list. Roon is very nice but also very pricey. I'm leaning to investing in hardware over software as I found Roon doesn't help sound but helps ease of use. I can buy a MicroRendu for the price of a lifetime Roon subscription and keep on using jRiver and Tidal to feed the microRendu. Or, I could up the ante and get the UltraRendu and still be $ ahead of a microRendu + Roon. Net, I think that would be the choice...hardware or software. My vote is hardware.

Mark

[klinemj]

So, I've been experimenting with using the MR via DLNA. I had some initial issues getting my network and other PC's to "see" it. Those were entirely my fault. In setting up the MR, there's a nice little dialog box with one tab being "settings" and another being "apps". The instructions for choosing DLNA vs. Roon ready say to go into the "settings" and choose the one you want, then go into apps and do that also. I did that to select Roon - worked fine. But, when I tried DLNA - the MR refused to show up as a media device on my computer. I tried about everything and finally skipped the step of going into the "apps" tab. And suddenly the MR appeared. Odd, but it started working.

I did some testing with sending music via jRiver to the MR and all was great. Sound was the same as using Roon, and all I lost was all the extras Roon has like the lyrics, info about the album and credits, etc. I don't really care about that, so...no big deal.

Then, I decided to try Tidal. For those using Tidal PC, you know that it can't see DLNA devices. (Hint: that would be a GREAT addition!) But, with jRiver 24.0.01, they CLAIM to have the issues with playing from Tidal worked out. In older versions, you simply enabled the WDM driver via a selection in the "options" menu of jRiver and suddenly jRiver shows up as an output device in Tidal. And, jRiver shows as a speaker choice on your PC. You set your PC to use jRiver as speakers and set tidal to output to jRiver and suddenly you are playing Tidal "through" jRiver.

Excellent! Except...almost immediately, I starting hearing odd artifacts. Things that sound like static or old time LP skips, etc. These were things that were issues before with using the WDM driver that were supposed to be fixed with 24.0.01. But, apparently not.

I'll tinker more with it, but it appears Tidal via DLNA isn't quite "there" yet. UPDATE: I tried 1 last thing. Instead of choosing "jRiver" as the output in Tidal, I choose "system controlled" Suddenly no digital nasties and it started playing fine. For a bit, then I think it's doing it again. More testing to come!

Mark

[chicagorspec]

Jul 24, 2018 20:07:09 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Jul 24, 2018 17:02:29 GMT -5 spom409 said:

Hi Mark

For the Core I am currently using a MACBook Pro.
Music is on a (HP) NAS and Tidal.

Testing across 2 room systems.

Testing various endponts:
HT
The MAC itself plugged into the XMC-1 (USB) DAC (Temporary)
Apple TV (HDMI) to XMC-1
Sonos Connect (Optical) to XMC-1

2 Channel
Logitech Squeezebox Duet to a 2 channel system (USP-1) with RCAs.

Trying to figure out what should be changed (without breakng the bank)in both the HT and 2 Channel system to get the best quality out of Tidal and lossless NAS files.
Would prefer to start with the 2 channel system.

Steve

If you look at my system, you'll see I have a lot of Sonos. And, I used to have more. I sold some mainly because for 2 channel they were good but they can't handle MQA files from Tidal. So, I've been working out of using Sonos for my critical listening in 2 channel. If you want to focus on your 2 channel first, my suggestion would be to feed your USP-1 from a high quality DAC. As far as the approach for how to get tunes off your NAS and via Tidal to the DAC...so many options to list. Roon is very nice but also very pricey. I'm leaning to investing in hardware over software as I found Roon doesn't help sound but helps ease of use. I can buy a MicroRendu for the price of a lifetime Roon subscription and keep on using jRiver and Tidal to feed the microRendu. Or, I could up the ante and get the UltraRendu and still be $ ahead of a microRendu + Roon. Net, I think that would be the choice...hardware or software. My vote is hardware.

Mark

Whatever the decision, glad you had the opportunity to try out so many different approaches and find what works best for you, Mark.

[klinemj]

chicagorspec

Given my DLNA experiments the last few days and how much better the MR has made my system sound - it's looking very likely I'll end up pulling the trigger on a lifetime Roon subscription and an Ultrarendu + the small green computer 7v power supply. Why Ultrarendu over the microRendu? I like the fact that all the cables go in and out from the back vs. the microRendu they go out both sides. And, dyohn said he thought it sounded better. Heck, once you're in deep, a little deeper never hurts.

I hope you are enjoying your new toys!

Mark

[brubacca]

When I briefly tried Tidal it was setup in the app. My control point is a iPad, (no PC control). I use the Lumin app which is what sends my music from my DLNA server (Minimserver) to the mR. One of that tabs to setup in the app is Tidal. So I could also via the Lumin App send Tidal Music to the mR...

Just another option for you.

[klinemj]

Jul 27, 2018 15:03:44 GMT -5 brubacca said:

When I briefly tried Tidal it was setup in the app. My control point is a iPad, (no PC control). I use the Lumin app which is what sends my music from my DLNA server (Minimserver) to the mR. One of that tabs to setup in the app is Tidal. So I could also via the Lumin App send Tidal Music to the mR...

Just another option for you.

Thanks - looked into that on the Windows/Google side and it seems the app currently has issues. Rated 2.1 out of 5 stars with a lot of crashes/shutdowns/not playing nice with certain gear.

Mark

[DYohn]

Jul 27, 2018 14:49:22 GMT -5 klinemj said:

chicagorspec

Given my DLNA experiments the last few days and how much better the MR has made my system sound - it's looking very likely I'll end up pulling the trigger on a lifetime Roon subscription and an Ultrarendu + the small green computer 7v power supply. Why Ultrarendu over the microRendu? I like the fact that all the cables go in and out from the back vs. the microRendu they go out both sides. And, dyohn said he thought it sounded better. Heck, once you're in deep, a little deeper never hurts.

I hope you are enjoying your new toys!

Mark

In my experience going from a MR to a UR the physical difference was a big step up in appearance in the rack and the performance was subtly better but I believe better none the less. Congrats and enjoy the music.

[klinemj]

I have been surfing the web trying to find more info on Tidal through jRiver, and I finally found something in the JRiverWiki. And except follows:

Clicks, Pops, and Static
Clicks, pops, and static are typically caused by buffer underruns. Because the WDM Driver is re-routing sound in real time, it is more sensitive to buffering settings than normal audio playback. There are two buffers that are important to WDM performance:

The output buffer, found at Options-->Audio-->Device Settings, and
The input buffer, found at Options-->Audio-->Advanced-->Live Playback Latency
If you are experiencing clicks and pops, try different combinations of settings with these two buffers. It is important to note that a larger buffer will not necessarily work better. Different hardware configurations work best with different combinations of settings, so try different combinations large and small until you find settings that resolve your issue.

I experimented around and just went for the limits...I tried high/high on the settings, then low/low, then high/low, and low/high. At present I have the output buffer set at 5 ms (jRiver standard reco is 100 ms) and the input buffer set at 500 ms (jRiver standard reco is 50 ms). This appears to work. I've not tried less extreme settings yet, but I will.

Question for those who know more than I do...is there any risk to these settings? IGNORE THIS...see next post.

Mark

[klinemj]

Never mind re. the above...

To test out jRiver playing Tidal w/the WDM driver - I was using my desktop PC and it worked fine. I decided to take the next step and tell jRiver to play to a media player and switched the MR to DLNA mode. Then, I used the PC to play jRiver to the MR and it played fine. As soon as I tried playing Tidal through jRiver to the MR, jRiver locked up. It locked up so bad it would not respond to the good old ctrl-alt-del shutdown process and I had to do a hard shutdown of my PC from the power button.

I tried it 3x and it did it every time. In my first attempt to just Tidal to jRiver to the MR, I had used my Surface Pro 3 and I got the same results. That led me to thinking "well, the Surface Pro 3 just isn't suitable to run 2 music players at once" That's what led me to try it from my PC which has a more powerful processor and 2x the RAM. But, same old result.

Net, at this point, I'm concluding that if I want to run Tidal to the MR or a similar device, Tidal through jRiver just isn't cutting it yet. My best efforts keep failing, and it's not worth messing with any more.

Since I do want to run Tidal into an MR or the like, it looks like I'll just switch to Roon and get the UltraRendu. Placing the order either today or tomorrow.

Mark

[brubacca]

Please understand that I am cheap when it comes to several things. This is all so I can put my limited resources into other areas. I have done a lot of work to avoid paying for Roon. Its seems fantastic, but I just have other places for $500 right now.

With that being said. Linn Audio has a software control program that can be used to control the mR. It also works with Tidal and has a PC version. Its free to try, if you are wanting to try not to buy Roon.
www.linn.co.uk/software

I'm not saying its better than Roon, its just free. I doubt seriously it is better than Roon as Roon looks amazing. But it is $500 less expensive.

[novisnick]

Jul 29, 2018 12:31:21 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Never mind re. the above...

To test out jRiver playing Tidal w/the WDM driver - I was using my desktop PC and it worked fine. I decided to take the next step and tell jRiver to play to a media player and switched the MR to DLNA mode. Then, I used the PC to play jRiver to the MR and it played fine. As soon as I tried playing Tidal through jRiver to the MR, jRiver locked up. It locked up so bad it would not respond to the good old ctrl-alt-del shutdown process and I had to do a hard shutdown of my PC from the power button.

I tried it 3x and it did it every time. In my first attempt to just Tidal to jRiver to the MR, I had used my Surface Pro 3 and I got the same results. That led me to thinking "well, the Surface Pro 3 just isn't suitable to run 2 music players at once" That's what led me to try it from my PC which has a more powerful processor and 2x the RAM. But, same old result.

Net, at this point, I'm concluding that if I want to run Tidal to the MR or a similar device, Tidal through jRiver just isn't cutting it yet. My best efforts keep failing, and it's not worth messing with any more.

Since I do want to run Tidal into an MR or the like, it looks like I'll just switch to Roon and get the UltraRendu. Placing the order either today or tomorrow.

Mark

Hi Mark, Ive had the same outcome with JRiver and Tidal! Almost a month ago I threw up my hands and said the continued charges by JRivers was a nickel and dime process. They learn as they earn! Roon will be getting at least one year from me. Lifetime if I can sell some gear. JRiver has no support! Unless you have endless hours to read and become intimate with their system, I’ve had JR for years and at this very moment I know more about operating Roon! That should tell you a lot!  

I wish you had access to a soTm Ultra just for comparative reasons. Im sure the UR is an extremely good product. For testing and comparison  purposes the  compact size of these network audio players are cheaper to ship back then a set of speakers though! LOL   

[klinemj]

Jul 29, 2018 14:08:38 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Jul 29, 2018 12:31:21 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Never mind re. the above...

To test out jRiver playing Tidal w/the WDM driver - I was using my desktop PC and it worked fine. I decided to take the next step and tell jRiver to play to a media player and switched the MR to DLNA mode. Then, I used the PC to play jRiver to the MR and it played fine. As soon as I tried playing Tidal through jRiver to the MR, jRiver locked up. It locked up so bad it would not respond to the good old ctrl-alt-del shutdown process and I had to do a hard shutdown of my PC from the power button.

I tried it 3x and it did it every time. In my first attempt to just Tidal to jRiver to the MR, I had used my Surface Pro 3 and I got the same results. That led me to thinking "well, the Surface Pro 3 just isn't suitable to run 2 music players at once" That's what led me to try it from my PC which has a more powerful processor and 2x the RAM. But, same old result.

Net, at this point, I'm concluding that if I want to run Tidal to the MR or a similar device, Tidal through jRiver just isn't cutting it yet. My best efforts keep failing, and it's not worth messing with any more.

Since I do want to run Tidal into an MR or the like, it looks like I'll just switch to Roon and get the UltraRendu. Placing the order either today or tomorrow.

Mark

Hi Mark, Ive had the same outcome with JRiver and Tidal! Almost a month ago I threw up my hands and said the continued charges by JRivers was a nickel and dime process. They learn as they earn! Roon will be getting at least one year from me. Lifetime if I can sell some gear. JRiver has no support! Unless you have endless hours to read and become intimate with their system, I’ve had JR for years and at this very moment I know more about operating Roon! That should tell you a lot!  

I wish you had access to a soTm Ultra just for comparative reasons. Im sure the UR is an extremely good product. For testing and comparison  purposes the  compact size of these network audio players are cheaper to ship back then a set of speakers though! LOL   

I can relate on having jRiver for years and feeling I know more about Roon. I guess the reality is that with Roon, there's really not much to figure out. And, for what I couldn't figure out - I have given their tech support a workout this week directly asking questions and very promptly (within 24 hours) getting very helpful responses. With jRiver, it's been fine for me so far in running on a PC outputting via USB to a DAC, But, if I want to use a MR or ultraRendu, I need a Tidal solution and jRiver is just not it. I could look at a lot of options which I did with my Raspberry Pi, but I am just not seeing a lot of options that seem problem free. I stopped using the Pi for this reason and bought a cheap ($125) PC to be able to use jRiver and Tidal with my headphone setup. Once I get the UltraRendu, I'll likely drag the Pi back out and send Roon to it for my headphone setup. And, I can sell the PC likely for what I paid for it.

The only issues I have with Roon (other than cost) are that:
- I have noticed that occasionally my Surface Pro 3 loses connection to my Roon core (using the surface as a controller). When it has happened, it's been for a very short period of time. I'm talking a second or so.
- I put the Roon Core on a PC that sometimes take a few minutes to connect to the hard drive I have my ripped library on if the PC has been shut down. I really need to move that hard drive to being hung off my server, and that will solve the issues that cause that (as well as allow me some other options with that hard drive).

Mark

[klinemj]

The UltraRendu and the "small green computer" 7v linear power supply have now been ordered. I'll be watching for delivery by Wednesday.

Mark

[novisnick]

Jul 29, 2018 14:20:31 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Jul 29, 2018 14:08:38 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Hi Mark, Ive had the same outcome with JRiver and Tidal! Almost a month ago I threw up my hands and said the continued charges by JRivers was a nickel and dime process. They learn as they earn! Roon will be getting at least one year from me. Lifetime if I can sell some gear. JRiver has no support! Unless you have endless hours to read and become intimate with their system, I’ve had JR for years and at this very moment I know more about operating Roon! That should tell you a lot!  

I wish you had access to a soTm Ultra just for comparative reasons. Im sure the UR is an extremely good product. For testing and comparison  purposes the  compact size of these network audio players are cheaper to ship back then a set of speakers though! LOL   

I can relate on having jRiver for years and feeling I know more about Roon. I guess the reality is that with Roon, there's really not much to figure out. And, for what I couldn't figure out - I have given their tech support a workout this week directly asking questions and very promptly (within 24 hours) getting very helpful responses. With jRiver, it's been fine for me so far in running on a PC outputting via USB to a DAC, But, if I want to use a MR or ultraRendu, I need a Tidal solution and jRiver is just not it. I could look at a lot of options which I did with my Raspberry Pi, but I am just not seeing a lot of options that seem problem free. I stopped using the Pi for this reason and bought a cheap ($125) PC to be able to use jRiver and Tidal with my headphone setup. Once I get the UltraRendu, I'll likely drag the Pi back out and send Roon to it for my headphone setup. And, I can sell the PC likely for what I paid for it.

The only issues I have with Roon (other than cost) are that:
- I have noticed that occasionally my Surface Pro 3 loses connection to my Roon core (using the surface as a controller). When it has happened, it's been for a very short period of time. I'm talking a second or so.
- I put the Roon Core on a PC that sometimes take a few minutes to connect to the hard drive I have my ripped library on if the PC has been shut down. I really need to move that hard drive to being hung off my server, and that will solve the issues that cause that (as well as allow me some other options with that hard drive).

Mark

Im getting too short tempered and tired of having to mess with something that doesn’t work properly. So far with my setup the only problem Ive encountered was an external harddrive that was acting up and would disconnect. Im guessing its on its leg. I shut down my system plugged in the backup, yep! I have multiple backups of the same exact data, and powered up. I did change the name of the drive path from “Audio 1” to “Audio 2” without any problems. 

[DYohn]

Jul 29, 2018 14:20:31 GMT -5 klinemj said:

The only issues I have with Roon (other than cost) are that:
- I have noticed that occasionally my Surface Pro 3 loses connection to my Roon core (using the surface as a controller). When it has happened, it's been for a very short period of time. I'm talking a second or so.
- I put the Roon Core on a PC that sometimes take a few minutes to connect to the hard drive I have my ripped library on if the PC has been shut down. I really need to move that hard drive to being hung off my server, and that will solve the issues that cause that (as well as allow me some other options with that hard drive).

Mark

These are some of the reasons why I suggest creating a dedicated music server. I built a PC-based platform that is always on and does nothing but host my server and music files. No delay, no latency, no waiting for something to boot, spin up or connect.

[novisnick]

Jul 29, 2018 14:50:11 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Jul 29, 2018 14:20:31 GMT -5 klinemj said:

The only issues I have with Roon (other than cost) are that:
- I have noticed that occasionally my Surface Pro 3 loses connection to my Roon core (using the surface as a controller). When it has happened, it's been for a very short period of time. I'm talking a second or so.
- I put the Roon Core on a PC that sometimes take a few minutes to connect to the hard drive I have my ripped library on if the PC has been shut down. I really need to move that hard drive to being hung off my server, and that will solve the issues that cause that (as well as allow me some other options with that hard drive).

Mark

These are some of the reasons why I suggest creating a dedicated music server. I built a PC-based platform that is always on and does nothing but host my server and music files. No delay, no latency, no waiting for something to boot, spin up or connect.

Im with you DYohn , my Mac Mini is a dedicated music server as well. Nothing to do but play music. I’m sure an Intel Nuk could do it cheaper nut then I have an extra computer.

[klinemj]

Jul 29, 2018 14:50:11 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Jul 29, 2018 14:20:31 GMT -5 klinemj said:

The only issues I have with Roon (other than cost) are that:
- I have noticed that occasionally my Surface Pro 3 loses connection to my Roon core (using the surface as a controller). When it has happened, it's been for a very short period of time. I'm talking a second or so.
- I put the Roon Core on a PC that sometimes take a few minutes to connect to the hard drive I have my ripped library on if the PC has been shut down. I really need to move that hard drive to being hung off my server, and that will solve the issues that cause that (as well as allow me some other options with that hard drive).

Mark

These are some of the reasons why I suggest creating a dedicated music server. I built a PC-based platform that is always on and does nothing but host my server and music files. No delay, no latency, no waiting for something to boot, spin up or connect.

In my case, I have the HD with my music on a USB Hard drive that's connected to a PC on my network. And, the Roon core is on a different PC. So, if either PC shuts down, it takes a bit for the one w/Roon core to "find" the other PC and the HD. I'll likely end up moving the HD so it is connected directly to the PC the Roon Core is on...which is where it should have been all along. Its only job is to play music (or run Dirac when I need to do that). Or, I can have it plugged into my router. I'll work on that later. Too many things to play around with right now. LOL!

Mark

[novisnick]

Jul 29, 2018 15:20:35 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Jul 29, 2018 14:50:11 GMT -5 DYohn said:

These are some of the reasons why I suggest creating a dedicated music server. I built a PC-based platform that is always on and does nothing but host my server and music files. No delay, no latency, no waiting for something to boot, spin up or connect.

In my case, I have the HD with my music on a USB Hard drive that's connected to a PC on my network. And, the Roon core is on a different PC. So, if either PC shuts down, it takes a bit for the one w/Roon core to "find" the other PC and the HD. I'll likely end up moving the HD so it is connected directly to the PC the Roon Core is on...which is where it should have been all along. Its only job is to play music (or run Dirac when I need to do that). Or, I can have it plugged into my router. I'll work on that later. Too many things to play around with right now. LOL!

Mark

OH the Joy of having Toys! 😀

[brubacca]

I have built a Vortexbox and use minimserver and plex. Our own DYohn knows how to make it a Roon Server also.


I read recently that Andrew is making a new version of Vortexbox(2.5 maybe?), the current being 2.4. Not sure when it may come out.

My Vortexbox is an older Dell Vostro i5 with a 2TB drive.