klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Aug 27, 2018 6:23:54 GMT -5
Damn-it I guess wearing Tin Foil on top of your head won't help either. I wrap all my cables in tin foil. It is absolutely critical to put the shiny side out or it actually harms the sound. Mark |
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Post by 405x5 on Aug 27, 2018 7:21:02 GMT -5
Damn-it I guess wearing Tin Foil on top of your head won't help either. I wrap all my cables in tin foil. It is absolutely critical to put the shiny side out or it actually harms the sound. Mark Attachments:
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Post by 405x5 on Aug 27, 2018 7:43:46 GMT -5
Let's cut to the chase: STATISTICS LIE - and nowhere more than in difference testing. If you start with a large sample population listening to speaker wires and the majority can hear no difference between Wire A and Wire B, then what you've proven is that the majority of listeners can hear no difference. What you have NOT proven is that there IS no difference. If, in our sample population of, let's say, 1,000 listeners, there is but one listener who can distinguish with 100% accuracy that A and B sound differently, then THEN A AND B ARE ABSOLUTELY DIFFERENT. The fact that the majority can't hear it is completely academic. Now were I a manufacturer, would I spend any significant money to make a product incorporating a virtue (let's give the A-B difference the benefit of that particular doubt for purposes of this rant) that 999 out of a thousand couldn't even hear? No sir, I wouldn't. Not a cost-effective choice, and manufacturers live by profit. Now what I've said above is not valid, statistically, but it is absolutely true on the face of it, and anyone who denies that is deluding themselves. But additionally, let's not all delude ourselves into thinking that we're that one in a thousand either. Boom The problem with this is that there is no such thing as listening 👂 to WIRES! Bill |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 27, 2018 8:28:42 GMT -5
When it comes to speaker cable preference, the label of "psychoacoustic effect" best describes the owners response. Don't use the word psychoacoustics like it's a bad thing. It is a key to audio, especially to hearing things like "sound stage" or even "stereo." It is what allows us to have feelings about what we hear. Psychoacoustics is the study of perception - what allows us to interpret a sound and know that it is an oboe and not a clarinet. Psychoacoustics is a scientific part of acoustics. It is a very good thing indeed. Maybe what you mean is "pseudo-acoustics"?  |
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Post by geeqner on Aug 27, 2018 9:46:00 GMT -5
Only two things matter. The wire gauge for the proper resistance given length/load. Care when routing/ hiding the wire, as not to short it with nails or tacks. Bill Add one more: Good, solid terminations at BOTH ENDS that maximize electrical contact surface-area, are unaffected by vibration, and are unlikely to corrode significantly. Which sort of begs another question: Banana Plugs with some sort of plating vs. shove the wire into the Speaker / Amp Binding posts. Do the plugs improve the connection or do they just add yet ANOTHER potential point of failure? Methinks that soldering or solid crimps of silver / gold-plated lugs to the speaker wires could make for better long-term connections. (I really like the idea of how Blue Jeans cable uses plain ol' heavy-guage copper "ultrasonically welded" to the termination lugs.) This isn't being esoteric - it's about a RELIABLE connection of the conductors to the body of the lug. Bare copper tends to oxidize over time |
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Post by DavidR on Aug 27, 2018 10:12:23 GMT -5
If its not cryogenically treated SOFC then its all moot. Everyone knows that the molecules need to be as close together as possible for proper electron flow. Any wide gaps between molecules means electron flow will be disrupted and cause distortion.  |
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Post by 405x5 on Aug 27, 2018 10:16:35 GMT -5
Only two things matter. The wire gauge for the proper resistance given length/load. Care when routing/ hiding the wire, as not to short it with nails or tacks. Bill Add one more: Good, solid terminations at BOTH ENDS that maximize electrical contact surface-area, are unaffected by vibration, and are unlikely to corrode significantly. Which sort of begs another question: Banana Plugs with some sort of plating vs. shove the wire into the Speaker / Amp Binding posts. Do the plugs improve the connection or do they just add yet ANOTHER potential point of failure? Methinks that soldering or solid crimps of silver / gold-plated lugs to the speaker wires could make for better long-term connections. (I really like the idea of how Blue Jeans cable uses plain ol' heavy-guage copper "ultrasonically welded" to the termination lugs.) This isn't being esoteric - it's about a RELIABLE connection of the conductors to the body of the lug. Bare copper tends to oxidize over time Right now, I'm using a combination of both. The "spring loaded" bananas stay put nicely and I have my center hooked up with those, but I'm bare wire everyplace else. At least with the type of binding posts on my speakers, the bare wire goes in nice and never gets loose. As you pointed out, adding more to it sometimes can be problematic. Oxidation right in where the wire meets the metal is rarely a problem right there, where it counts. That kind of an oxidation problem takes a VERY long time to occur, and if it does, you can strip the end and put it back in just a few seconds. The NEWEST of my speaker wires are 17 years running and I've yet to have to strip any of them due to an oxidation issue. Some of that can also be environmental (man cave basement vs. central air living room upstairs, etc. can change that timeframe.) Bill |
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Post by rbk123 on Aug 27, 2018 10:22:02 GMT -5
The problem with this is that there is no such thing as listening 👂 to WIRES! With this approach, then there is no such thing as listening to CD's, no listening to vinyl, no listening to pre-amps, no listening to amps, etc. That being said, Boom is correct in that because some people can't hear it, doesn't mean it's not audible. Now if I'm going to drop some serious $$ to improve my system, the 2nd to last thing I would be putting it into would be speaker wire (the last would be power cord). I would spend a small'ish amount of money on decent speaker wire (or power cords), but my big $$ would be on something that will make a much bigger difference. |
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Post by 405x5 on Aug 27, 2018 10:32:07 GMT -5
The problem with this is that there is no such thing as listening 👂 to WIRES! With this approach, then there is no such thing as listening to CD's, no listening to vinyl, no listening to pre-amps, no listening to amps, etc. That being said, Boom is correct in that because some people can't hear it, doesn't mean it's not audible. Now if I'm going to drop some serious $$ to improve my system, the 2nd to last thing I would be putting it into would be speaker wire (the last would be power cord). I would spend a small'ish amount of money on decent speaker wire (or power cords), but my big $$ would be on something that will make a much bigger difference. Too funny (that you entirely missed the point) Somehow, what you said reminded me of that classic football video of the receiver catching the ball, then running the entire length of the field, (the wrong way) for what he thought was a touchdown! Obviously what I meant was the wires are only the conduit, and we are listening to the TRANSDUCERS (and only them). In fact all of what you listed are also the conduits to the loudspeakers and obviously, some have greater impact on the overall sound then others. Bill |
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Post by monkumonku on Aug 27, 2018 10:39:08 GMT -5
The problem with this is that there is no such thing as listening 👂 to WIRES! With this approach, then there is no such thing as listening to CD's, no listening to vinyl, no listening to pre-amps, no listening to amps, etc. That being said, Boom is correct in that because some people can't hear it, doesn't mean it's not audible. Now if I'm going to drop some serious $$ to improve my system, the 2nd to last thing I would be putting it into would be speaker wire (the last would be power cord). I would spend a small'ish amount of money on decent speaker wire (or power cords), but my big $$ would be on something that will make a much bigger difference. Fuses. You forgot expensive upgraded fuses.  |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 27, 2018 10:41:51 GMT -5
FYI, bare wire connections in a proper binding post will not oxidize at the interface, so bare wire properly used is just fine, and solder improperly used can cause problems..
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 27, 2018 10:54:12 GMT -5
WTF..MORE interesting than discussing the 100th rendition of STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN! 3 things. 1. We have never had that discussion here so not sure how that would go. 2. I believe that conversation could easily be more interesting because A. At least it has not been previously discussed on this forum 500+ times already to little or no avail, and B. There actually could be something relevant to a new rendition (not remaster) like for example having some guest artist on it or something. There is nothing new about wires. 3. Stairway to Heaven is one of my least favorite Zep songs. It is certainly highly overrated, and any true Zep fan will tell you it is absolutely not their best song. Of course. Chalk that up to late night phone typing. Um, no, just had a bad weekend and tired and amazed that this worn out wire discussion is going on again. I should have just kept my mouth shut. My mood got the better of me, but it’s not anger issues. Sorry if you can’t handle the F word without taking offense, but I use it quite frequently on a daily basis. Not that it matters here, but found out Saturday that my nephew, who is one of my best friends, ......well his really good friend’s 22 year old son committed suicide Friday. Kid just finished boot camp for the Coast Guard and was really pumped up and excited about it. A complete shock to everyone with zero warning. Horrible. And then last night while watering flowers I saw my wife’s car had a flat. Have had the tire in the shop for slow leaks twice now in the same amount of months. Tried to pump it up but could hear the air just going out the other side, which meant the bead seal was gone. Was now dark outside so decided to call AAA since we get free tows. After 2 hours of waiting watching out the window, no tow truck had come so we called again only to have them tell us the order had been placed and then canceled, with no answer as to why or how the cancelation got entered. Very frustrating. So we had to postpone it until tonight. Not happy with AAA or my shop. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 27, 2018 11:04:24 GMT -5
I fu**ing agree with Bonzo, another f***ing "what does wire sound like" discussion is fuc***g stupid and pointless, which is why I try to simply state only the fu***ng engineering perspective on this topic. |
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Post by geeqner on Aug 27, 2018 11:06:07 GMT -5
If its not cryogenically treated SOFC then its all moot. Everyone knows that the molecules need to be as close together as possible for proper electron flow. Any wide gaps between molecules means electron flow will be disrupted and cause distortion. Actually - the ULTIMATE would be to use high-purity Niobium / Titanium alloy, immersed in liquid helium or liquid Nitrogen (REAL superconductor)! And each strand has to be hand-polished to a mirror-like luster using only the pelts of virgin albino Northern Hungarian red weasels in order to minimize exothermic skin-effect. [or Adamantium, to make them DURABLE - is that maybe a play on the singer "Adam Ant"?] However, the added complexity of the piping AROUND the speaker cables and the noise that the chiller / circulation equipment would introduce would be likely to introduce more noise than what is saved by using the fancy wire... |
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Post by novisnick on Aug 27, 2018 11:10:01 GMT -5
The final answer!
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 27, 2018 11:31:02 GMT -5
Just try to find REAL GENUINE tin foil these days. All you can get these days is aluminum foil - and we all know that aluminum sounds all light and crinkly  Damn-it I guess wearing Tin Foil on top of your head won't help either. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 27, 2018 11:53:23 GMT -5
There is a lot of context involved in that question.......
For example, a good quality gold-plated banana plug, properly attached to the wire, makes an excellent connection... however, banana plugs can get loose, and many are poorly connected to the plug. Also, because of the way they're constructed, some banana plugs have a poor connection between the actual conductor and the springy part of the "banana pin".
Likewise, there is a lot of variation between binding posts ("commercial red and black five-way binding posts" are actually usually quite good).
Bare copper leads make an excellent connection when attached to a properly tightened binding post.
But, they are prone to oxidation, especially if they are allowed to get loose, which can make for a very poor quality connection. They are also susceptible to squeezing out of the binding post - which raises the hazard of stray strands shorting against other contacts.
However, being bare wire, if they get oxidized, you can just snip off the end few inches, re-strip them, and again have a shiny new connection.
Bare stranded wire tends to make a very tight connection - allowing you to tighten a binding post down securely so it stays in place. However, bare solid copper wire, while excellent as an electrical conductor, tends to loosen with handling (when you move the entire cable, it wiggles around in the binding post, and the binding post tends to loosen). I've had this same situation with various types of lugs; no matter how much you tighten the binding post, they tend to "work loose", and so require periodic tightening.
(And, if you fail to periodically check them, they can end up very loose - and make a very poor connection.)
I once had a pair of commercial "speaker cables" that had a crimped termination that ended in a thin gold-plated metal "pin" - intended to be tightened into a binding post. Sadly, while it looked pretty, no matter how much you tightened the binding post, they would always work loose in a few days.
(When all is said and done, THE most important thing is being able to make a tight secure connection that doesn't loosen.)
I've personally always favored heavy duty zip cord - with the clear vinyl insulation. Because the wire itself, and the insulation, vary significantly, you will often see such wire deteriorate over time (you can see the copper tarnishing, or even turning green, inside the insulation). However, handily, since you can SEE the surface of the wire, you can see when this happens, and either clip off the affected few inches or, in extreme cases, discard and replace the wire if it turns green. I would personally rather have a cheap wire whose quality I can visually inspect than a fancy wire with opaque insulation that I'm expected to "trust".
Cheap wire also has the virtue of being inexpensive to replace if you suspect a problem.
(Note that "expensive boutique wire" tends to be made to order, in small batches, which increases the likelihood of manufacturing flaws, or unexpected reactions between the conductor and the insulation.)
Only two things matter. The wire gauge for the proper resistance given length/load. Care when routing/ hiding the wire, as not to short it with nails or tacks. Bill Add one more: Good, solid terminations at BOTH ENDS that maximize electrical contact surface-area, are unaffected by vibration, and are unlikely to corrode significantly. Which sort of begs another question: Banana Plugs with some sort of plating vs. shove the wire into the Speaker / Amp Binding posts. Do the plugs improve the connection or do they just add yet ANOTHER potential point of failure? Methinks that soldering or solid crimps of silver / gold-plated lugs to the speaker wires could make for better long-term connections. (I really like the idea of how Blue Jeans cable uses plain ol' heavy-guage copper "ultrasonically welded" to the termination lugs.) This isn't being esoteric - it's about a RELIABLE connection of the conductors to the body of the lug. Bare copper tends to oxidize over time |
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mikes
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Post by mikes on Aug 27, 2018 12:06:41 GMT -5
If its not cryogenically treated SOFC then its all moot. Everyone knows that the molecules need to be as close together as possible for proper electron flow. Any wide gaps between molecules means electron flow will be disrupted and cause distortion. Actually - the ULTIMATE would be to use high-purity Niobium / Titanium alloy, immersed in liquid helium or liquid Nitrogen (REAL superconductor)! And each strand has to be hand-polished to a mirror-like luster using only the pelts of virgin albino Northern Hungarian red weasels in order to minimize exothermic skin-effect. [or Adamantium, to make them DURABLE - is that maybe a play on the singer "Adam Ant"?] However, the added complexity of the piping AROUND the speaker cables and the noise that the chiller / circulation equipment would introduce would be likely to introduce more noise than what is saved by using the fancy wire... Typically what is done (in NMR/MIR machines) is the wire would be immersed in a bath of liquid helium, then surrounded by a vacuum layer, then a layer of liquid nitrogen. You can keep the engineering simpler and cheaper by just letting everything boil off and replace the liquids when needed. The liquid nitrogen will need to be refilled more often, but that's ok, it's cheaper and easier to get. The liquid helium is more expensive, but in a properly designed system you should only need to replace it every few months. Both gases can be vented to the room as they are not toxic. Not sure how it would work for speaker wire, but our NMR was charged 18 years ago and is still working |
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Post by rbk123 on Aug 27, 2018 12:13:35 GMT -5
Obviously what I meant was the wires are only the conduit, and we are listening to the TRANSDUCERS (and only them). In fact all of what you listed are also the conduits to the loudspeakers and obviously, some have greater impact on the overall sound then others. Oh I completely got that and I simply extended your logic. Yes we aren't listening to the wires, but the wires can have an impact on what comes out of the transducers. Just like everything else I listed we "aren't listening to" because they are also conduits of what ends up reaching the transducers. My point was you can't just exclude the "wires", yet include the other items. However, the "wires" are going to have a far far far smaller impact than what wire sellers would have you believe. |
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Post by Jean Genie on Aug 27, 2018 12:25:12 GMT -5
Not to mention, they stole it from Randy California/ Spirt! 😜🙈🙉🙊😇 Bonzo Avatar Aug 27, 2018 11:54:12 GMT -4 Bonzo said: "... Stairway to Heaven is one of my least favorite Zep songs. It is certainly highly overrated, and any true Zep fan will tell you it is absolutely not their best song." |
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