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Post by moodyman on Apr 3, 2010 20:11:54 GMT -5
I listened to the podcast yesterday and was intrigued with the discussion of the XDA-1. From reading the first post in this thread Lonnie says the DAC in the XDA-1 is very similar to what is in the ERC-1. When Lonnie and Dan were discussing the performance of the XDA-1 which was using a ERC-1 (digital out) to the XDA-1 then straight to a XPA-2 using the XDA-1s volume control. Their comments were that the SQ was amazing and much better overall than the ERC-1 when a direct comparison was made earlier with a preamp. The terms "scary" and "frightening" were used to describe the imaging and that it was a "night and day difference" when compared to the ERC-1s performance. What I am curious about is how does the XDA-1 with similar a DAC (better, equal or less in quality?) as in the ERC-1 accomplish the huge difference in SQ? When the XDA-1 is available I would definitley like to try it in my system. But I would appreciate it if Lonnie could provide a little information as to how the XDA-1 performs so much better than the ERC-1 on its own. Bill Comparisons like this bother me....I plan on purchasing an ERC-1 when they get back in stock. I kept reading how awesome the ERC-1 is and how it trumps so many other CD players. I've read so many times how it had "transformed" peoples systems. So I figured the ERC-1 was gonna be as good as it gets and to hear something even remotely better I would have to spend thousands more. So now I hear the the $300 XDA will outperform the ERC-1....and who is saying this? Emotiva no less. Wow..was there that much room for improvement with the ERC-1?? Or is this just some marketing hype to sell some XDA's?? A little bit of both I guess....  |
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Post by Lonnie on Apr 3, 2010 20:38:32 GMT -5
I listened to the podcast yesterday and was intrigued with the discussion of the XDA-1. From reading the first post in this thread Lonnie says the DAC in the XDA-1 is very similar to what is in the ERC-1. When Lonnie and Dan were discussing the performance of the XDA-1 which was using a ERC-1 (digital out) to the XDA-1 then straight to a XPA-2 using the XDA-1s volume control. Their comments were that the SQ was amazing and much better overall than the ERC-1 when a direct comparison was made earlier with a preamp. The terms "scary" and "frightening" were used to describe the imaging and that it was a "night and day difference" when compared to the ERC-1s performance. What I am curious about is how does the XDA-1 with similar a DAC (better, equal or less in quality?) as in the ERC-1 accomplish the huge difference in SQ? When the XDA-1 is available I would definitley like to try it in my system. But I would appreciate it if Lonnie could provide a little information as to how the XDA-1 performs so much better than the ERC-1 on its own. Bill Bill - +1 on your comments. I am not that DAC savvy, but also realize that the whole implementation is usually rate limiting to quality, not the chip. Thats why some specs give the chip S/N (etc) specs and the full in/out S/N ratios (etc). RE: "XDA-1s volume control"If the ERC-1 -> XDA-1 then used the XDA-1 volume control, shouldn't any improvements be truncated (with a digital volume control) as you decrease volume from maximum in the XDA-1 DAC? Thanks for the more DAC savvy forum users (or Emotiva staff) for any comments and enlightenment. Like Bill, I am waiting to buy this but would like this clarified. Mike Even though the ERC and XDA share the same DAC, the reason the XDA sounds so much better is because of the discrete output stage. In the ERC the design is a straight forward single dif, going to a single stage VAS and output stage. The XDA on the other hand uses a Dual dif input stage with crosslinked current sources, Darlington VAS stage and Darlington output stages, so the speed and current it can deliver is like night and day different from the ERC. So as good as the ERC sounded (and to be honest I thought it was amazing), the XDA is in a league all its own. ;D Hope this helps. |
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Post by Lonnie on Apr 3, 2010 20:44:20 GMT -5
I listened to the podcast yesterday and was intrigued with the discussion of the XDA-1. From reading the first post in this thread Lonnie says the DAC in the XDA-1 is very similar to what is in the ERC-1. When Lonnie and Dan were discussing the performance of the XDA-1 which was using a ERC-1 (digital out) to the XDA-1 then straight to a XPA-2 using the XDA-1s volume control. Their comments were that the SQ was amazing and much better overall than the ERC-1 when a direct comparison was made earlier with a preamp. The terms "scary" and "frightening" were used to describe the imaging and that it was a "night and day difference" when compared to the ERC-1s performance. What I am curious about is how does the XDA-1 with similar a DAC (better, equal or less in quality?) as in the ERC-1 accomplish the huge difference in SQ? When the XDA-1 is available I would definitley like to try it in my system. But I would appreciate it if Lonnie could provide a little information as to how the XDA-1 performs so much better than the ERC-1 on its own. Bill Comparisons like this bother me....I plan on purchasing an ERC-1 when they get back in stock. I kept reading how awesome the ERC-1 is and how it trumps so many other CD players. I've read so many times how it had "transformed" peoples systems. So I figured the ERC-1 was gonna be as good as it gets and to hear something even remotely better I would have to spend thousands more. So now I hear the the $300 XDA will outperform the ERC-1....and who is saying this? Emotiva no less. Wow..was there that much room for improvement with the ERC-1?? Or is this just some marketing hype to sell some XDA's?? A little bit of both I guess.... We could have put the upgraded output stage in the ERC, but the problem with that is it would have kicked the price up to around 600 which was way more than we wanted to bring it to market at. Now having said that though, the ERC is by no means a slouch in any regards and will easily out perform other units at two to three times the cost. I am so confident of that and all the other products we do that we offer the audition period where if for any reason you are not happy, we will chearfully give you a full refund (although I don't you will want it once you hear it). ;D |
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Post by billmac on Apr 3, 2010 20:45:37 GMT -5
Even though the ERC and XDA share the same DAC, the reason the XDA sounds so much better is because of the discrete output stage. In the ERC the design is a straight forward single dif, going to a single stage VAS and output stage. The XDA on the other hand uses a Dual dif input stage with crosslinked current sources, Darlington VAS stage and Darlington output stages, so the speed and current it can deliver is like night and day different from the ERC. So as good as the ERC sounded (and to be honest I thought it was amazing), the XDA is in a league all its own. ;D Hope this helps. Lonnie, Thanks for the explanation I appreciate it  . Will there be a preorder for the XDA-1 or will it just be a standard order process when the XDA-1 is released? Bill |
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Post by moodyman on Apr 3, 2010 21:21:41 GMT -5
Comparisons like this bother me....I plan on purchasing an ERC-1 when they get back in stock. I kept reading how awesome the ERC-1 is and how it trumps so many other CD players. I've read so many times how it had "transformed" peoples systems. So I figured the ERC-1 was gonna be as good as it gets and to hear something even remotely better I would have to spend thousands more. So now I hear the the $300 XDA will outperform the ERC-1....and who is saying this? Emotiva no less. Wow..was there that much room for improvement with the ERC-1?? Or is this just some marketing hype to sell some XDA's?? A little bit of both I guess.... We could have put the upgraded output stage in the ERC, but the problem with that is it would have kicked the price up to around 600 which was way more than we wanted to bring it to market at. Now having said that though, the ERC is by no means a slouch in any regards and will easily out perform other units at two to three times the cost. I am so confident of that and all the other products we do that we offer the audition period where if for any reason you are not happy, we will chearfully give you a full refund (although I don't you will want it once you hear it). ;D Well then I say you should offer an ERC-2 with the upgraded output stage (add a digital input too..  )while still offering a stand alone DAC. I hate the thought now of buying a new ERC-1 which in time will just become a transport after I probaly add an XDA down the road. An ERC-2 would sell...everything EMO makes seems too... |
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Post by billmac on Apr 3, 2010 21:39:45 GMT -5
Well then I say you should offer an ERC-2 with the upgraded output stage (add a digital input too.. )while still offering a stand alone DAC. I hate the thought now of buying a new ERC-1 which in time will just become a transport after I probaly add an XDA down the road. An ERC-2 would sell...everything EMO makes seems too... Why not keep your current CD player if it is in good shape and use it as a transport with the XDA-1. Bill |
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Post by DYohn on Apr 3, 2010 23:36:40 GMT -5
Even though the ERC and XDA share the same DAC, the reason the XDA sounds so much better is because of the discrete output stage. In the ERC the design is a straight forward single dif, going to a single stage VAS and output stage. The XDA on the other hand uses a Dual dif input stage with crosslinked current sources, Darlington VAS stage and Darlington output stages, so the speed and current it can deliver is like night and day different from the ERC. So as good as the ERC sounded (and to be honest I thought it was amazing), the XDA is in a league all its own. ;D Hope this helps. Like I said, implementation. Thanks for the additional info Mr. Vaughn. Is there a pre-order list for this baby? |
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Post by MikeWI on Apr 3, 2010 23:54:09 GMT -5
Bill - +1 on your comments. I am not that DAC savvy, but also realize that the whole implementation is usually rate limiting to quality, not the chip. Thats why some specs give the chip S/N (etc) specs and the full in/out S/N ratios (etc). RE: "XDA-1s volume control"If the ERC-1 -> XDA-1 then used the XDA-1 volume control, shouldn't any improvements be truncated (with a digital volume control) as you decrease volume from maximum in the XDA-1 DAC? Thanks for the more DAC savvy forum users (or Emotiva staff) for any comments and enlightenment. Like Bill, I am waiting to buy this but would like this clarified. Mike Even though the ERC and XDA share the same DAC, the reason the XDA sounds so much better is because of the discrete output stage. In the ERC the design is a straight forward single dif, going to a single stage VAS and output stage. The XDA on the other hand uses a Dual dif input stage with crosslinked current sources, Darlington VAS stage and Darlington output stages, so the speed and current it can deliver is like night and day different from the ERC. So as good as the ERC sounded (and to be honest I thought it was amazing), the XDA is in a league all its own. ;D Hope this helps. Lonnie - Thanks. Mike |
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Post by billmac on Apr 4, 2010 8:27:18 GMT -5
Like I said, implementation. Why thank you for reminding us that you mentioned that . It was very helpful from a technical stand point for me in that it shows your vast knowledge in the form of the "implemation" of the DAC in the XDA-1 ;D. Bill |
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Post by ossif on Apr 4, 2010 11:23:39 GMT -5
Since the XDA-1 seems to have a headphone output, will the headphone output take full advantage of the differential output concept? And in regards to the volume control, is it correct to say that the digital volume control reduces the possible dynamics at lower volume and that because of that the capabilities to use the XDA-1 as headphone amp is limited? |
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Post by Erwin.BE on Apr 4, 2010 14:26:22 GMT -5
I do have a problem with all this!  Because, picture this, I have the XPA-1 side by side. Nice.  The ERC-1 is on top of one of the XPA-1, yes? When I add the XDA-1 on top of the other XPA-1, there will be an UNBALANCE! You see, 2RU ERC is not 1RU XDA  But wait, I know the solution! It shall be named the ERT-1 and it shall be a 1RU EMOTIVA REFERENCE TUNER - GENERATION 1. The DAB section will have a digital output of-course, connected to the XDA-1. And on the next day, he sat down and he was happy. ;D For a brief moment anyway |
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Post by Robert on Apr 4, 2010 15:14:11 GMT -5
This maybe a stupid question, but thy is there a volume control on the DAC? Is it for the headphone section? Does it eliminate the uses of pre-amp?
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Post by teedub21 on Apr 4, 2010 23:07:31 GMT -5
It sounds like the volume control would be in the "digital domain" which isn't the preferred method. An analog volume control is supposed to have less affect on the sound quality, from what I've read. Like my Oppo 83se has a "digital" volume control, but it isn't recommended to drop it below 80 for sound quality and best quality is obtained when set at 100.
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Post by MukAudio on Apr 4, 2010 23:23:58 GMT -5
Well, after listening to the webcast and then taking the time to read all 27 pages of this thread, I'm excited to see what this DAC will do to my ERC-1. In some ways this may be better than my ERC-2/XRC-1 idea because this can be applied to any digital music system I might add in the future.
Mark.
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Post by ajani on Apr 4, 2010 23:43:36 GMT -5
I really hope Lonnie has the time to answer this:
Is the XDA meant to be used with the XPA-2 alone (so no USP-1 or XSP-1), if you only have digital sources?
I know digital volume control is generally frowned upon for throwing away bits (or whatever), so is a XDA-1/XPA-2 Combo something you could use permanently and get the best possible sound or would you recommend placing a USP-1 or XSP-1 in the signal chain?
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Post by MikeWI on Apr 5, 2010 9:26:37 GMT -5
I really hope Lonnie has the time to answer this: Is the XDA meant to be used with the XPA-2 alone (so no USP-1 or XSP-1), if you only have digital sources? I know digital volume control is generally frowned upon for throwing away bits (or whatever), so is a XDA-1/XPA-2 Combo something you could use permanently and get the best possible sound or would you recommend placing a USP-1 or XSP-1 in the signal chain? Per post above (I don't know how to multi quote here): "It sounds like the volume control would be in the "digital domain" which isn't the preferred method. An analog volume control is supposed to have less affect on the sound quality, from what I've read. Like my Oppo 83se has a "digital" volume control, but it isn't recommended to drop it below 80 for sound quality and best quality is obtained when set at 100." So, you could do amp+DAC alone and have a volume control -- or also do volume control on your computer if you are using that as a source, with a decrease in quality. The best quality would be to have a pre-amp included. Mike |
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Post by moodyman on Apr 5, 2010 15:20:56 GMT -5
Well then I say you should offer an ERC-2 with the upgraded output stage (add a digital input too.. )while still offering a stand alone DAC. I hate the thought now of buying a new ERC-1 which in time will just become a transport after I probaly add an XDA down the road. An ERC-2 would sell...everything EMO makes seems too... Why not keep your current CD player if it is in good shape and use it as a transport with the XDA-1. Bill Hmm..you may have something there. My Yamaha CD changer is from 1995..it was well regarded at the time. I haven't had any probelms with it. But I'm assuming also that CD transport technology has improved a lot since then...actually I was gonna keep the Yamaha in the systenm anyway as its a 5-disc changer.. |
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Post by matt on Apr 5, 2010 23:12:12 GMT -5
It sounds like the volume control would be in the "digital domain" which isn't the preferred method. An analog volume control is supposed to have less affect on the sound quality, from what I've read. Like my Oppo 83se has a "digital" volume control, but it isn't recommended to drop it below 80 for sound quality and best quality is obtained when set at 100. ... Now the DACs themselves have a level attentuator built into the chips, so all we would be doing is giving you access to the attenuators. If you you wanted to "Bypass" the internal volume control, you would just turn it up all the way and forget it. If we were to take out the volume control, we would just be pre-setting the attenuators.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the attenuators are in the analog domain. The control will be digital, but the dynamic range will not be affected. So where is the power button on the new design? Will it be triggered via 12v trigger or detection of source audio? |
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Post by aarheadc on Apr 6, 2010 0:11:03 GMT -5
So where is the power button on the new design? Will it be triggered via 12v trigger or detection of source audio? I'm guessing that black circle next to the word 'Standby' is a power button. |
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Post by ratmice on Apr 6, 2010 12:25:25 GMT -5
Coming from a different thread, but do we know if the DAC will be able to decode (or whatever it's called) HDCD? Is this even possible in a DAC? I would think so, but not sure.
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. Will there be a preorder for the XDA-1 or will it just be a standard order process when the XDA-1 is released?
)while still offering a stand alone DAC. I hate the thought now of buying a new ERC-1 which in time will just become a transport after I probaly add an XDA down the road.
The ERC-1 is on top of one of the XPA-1, yes? When I add the XDA-1 on top of the other XPA-1, there will be an UNBALANCE! You see, 2RU ERC is not 1RU XDA 
