DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Nov 27, 2021 9:35:20 GMT -5
One of the more entertaining aspects of “high end” gear is when it’s in a room with normal people who are totally non reactive to it. The other (often seen at audio shows and on forums) is people who would never buy it or who could never realistically afford it talking about how overpriced it is. "That's why they make Toyotas," says the Bentley dealer.  |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 27, 2021 13:34:15 GMT -5
One of the more entertaining aspects of “high end” gear is when it’s in a room with normal people who are totally non reactive to it. The other (often seen at audio shows and on forums) is people who would never buy it or who could never realistically afford it talking about how overpriced it is. "That's why they make Toyotas," says the Bentley dealer. Right, it’s too bad that with one exception about the belt drive this discussion has focused on price, and not the design, precision workmanship and execution. To be honest I’d probably expect a direct drive in a turntable at this level, but I imagine their expertise and past experience is with belts; it also seems European designs are pretty exclusively belt drive, and direct is limited to a couple Japanese companies? On a more emotional level I kind of want it because the company’s the same age I am (but maybe a decal would scratch that itch). |
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Post by DavidR on Nov 27, 2021 13:47:51 GMT -5
The other (often seen at audio shows and on forums) is people who would never buy it or who could never realistically afford it talking about how overpriced it is. "That's why they make Toyotas," says the Bentley dealer. Right, it’s too bad that with one exception about the belt drive this discussion has focused on price, and not the design, precision workmanship and execution. To be honest I’d probably expect a direct drive in a turntable at this level, but I imagine their expertise and past experience is with belts; it also seems European designs are pretty exclusively belt drive, and direct is limited to a couple Japanese companies? On a more emotional level I kind of want it because the company’s the same age I am (but maybe a decal would scratch that itch). When vinyl was the music medium of choice (cica 70 and early 80s) direct drive was considered superior for wow and flutter and rumble. What has changed to make that untrue today? In order to build a very good and long lasting DD turntable it costs TOO MUCH $$$ today. I believe that is why we see very few being made. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 27, 2021 14:16:34 GMT -5
Right, it’s too bad that with one exception about the belt drive this discussion has focused on price, and not the design, precision workmanship and execution. To be honest I’d probably expect a direct drive in a turntable at this level, but I imagine their expertise and past experience is with belts; it also seems European designs are pretty exclusively belt drive, and direct is limited to a couple Japanese companies? On a more emotional level I kind of want it because the company’s the same age I am (but maybe a decal would scratch that itch). When vinyl was the music medium of choice (cica 70 and early 80s) direct drive was considered superior for wow and flutter and rumble. What has changed to make that untrue today? In order to build a very good and long lasting DD turntable it costs TOO MUCH $$$ today. I believe that is why we see very few being made. Yes, that makes sense. In about 1975 a bought a Technics SP-10, which was the powerhouse DD of the day, I even modified the base so I could interchange tonearms, over time I had an SME, ADC, and eventually an Audio Technica that had an exchangeable tonearm shaft. Hard to remember all the cartridges, transformers, and pre-preamps I had over the 30 years I used it; Supex, Denon. & Ortofon MCs come to mind, Varion, and a custom Nelson Pass pre-pre were in the mix too. It finally developed a rumble that bothered me, probably could have had the bearing replaced but I sold it. So I agree, it’s likely cost that we don’t see more direct drives, but there are plenty of pricey turntables (and this one transcends ‘pricey’), you’d think someone would have a ‘high end’ DD. I imagine they either don’t want to buy the motors from someone else, or invest in the manufacturing to build them? |
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Nov 27, 2021 20:57:50 GMT -5
But money spent on high quality, satisfying stuff with high resale is hardly “throwing it away”. Pride of ownership is a real value factor to many, and not everyone needs to pinch pennies. Of course, one can always “rethink the high end”. Yes it is all relative I guess. I've had people gasp at what I've spent on audio and other hobbies too. My whole point was is there any difference between one price and another (lower end-high end) and that point has been negated over a few posts because function is not primary at some point of high end. Does a pair of $5000 speakers sound better than a pair of $500 or $1000 speakers. Should. Does a pair of $25000 speakers sound better than a pair of $8000 speakers. Dumb questions because we don't have any firm price points and as we all know, there are multiple other factors. Not just speakers but any product. Interesting.......... |
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Post by DavidR on Nov 27, 2021 21:04:22 GMT -5
Yes it is all relative I guess. I've had people gasp at what I've spent on audio and other hobbies too. My whole point was is there any difference between one price and another (lower end-high end) and that point has been negated over a few posts because function is not primary at some point of high end. Does a pair of $5000 speakers sound better than a pair of $500 or $1000 speakers. Should. Does a pair of $25000 speakers sound better than a pair of $8000 speakers. Dumb questions because we don't have any firm price points and as we all know, there are multiple other factors. Not just speakers but any product. Interesting.......... I believe a lot has to do with synergy between the different components regardless of cost. Expensive does not always equate to better/best. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 27, 2021 22:23:42 GMT -5
… Does a pair of $5000 speakers sound better than a pair of $500 or $1000 speakers. Should. Does a pair of $25000 speakers sound better than a pair of $8000 speakers. … You mentioned speakers, to which the answer is a resounding yes, especially at all of those price points. Speakers are about the hardest thing to get right, which isn’t to say that under the right (or wrong) circumstances, an $8,000 pair couldn’t sound better than a $25,000 pair. With speakers there may always be a better one. But I don’t think being ‘relative’ is the point, just take Mrs geebo’s ‘gold thingies’ (the Tiffany Style RCAs on the RMCs), do they sound better than the surface mount ‘silver thingies’ on the XMC-2? Probably not, but can it give the user more satisfaction with their equipment? Definitely! A $1 part can bring an appreciation of quality, it’s not all about cost, but craftsmanship, quality, and attention to detail. Certainly this turntable goes beyond gold thingies, but it starts there. |
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Post by mfeust on Nov 28, 2021 8:59:23 GMT -5
Nice turntable for $175k. Let's put together a group buy - who's in?!!! At almost a $1000 a pound that really isn't very expensive. Oh wait who would of thought that a TT could weight 176 pounds? Mark |
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Post by drtrey3 on Nov 28, 2021 10:11:14 GMT -5
There is also a tactile feel to high end gear. It is heavy, solid, and the mechanical coupling and clicks are, well, satisfying.
Trey
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Post by monkumonku on Nov 28, 2021 11:33:34 GMT -5
I think it is also a matter of how people define "high end." To some that just means something really expensive. Others might define it as the best in class, while others would talk about high quality. Probably most people would say it is a combination of all three.
For me, "high end" would mean where priority has been placed on every single detail of the engineering and materials to make it the best of their ability and cut no corners or take any shortcuts. Something that the manufacturer could be proud of, knowing they didn't skimp on any part of the process. Like the example of the watch, maybe it doesn't keep time any more accurately than a cheaper model but it is all about quality of construction and engineering. It's a matter of emphasizing quality per dollar over performance per dollar and if you're just looking for performance then you'd be saying why pay more for the same results.
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Post by housetech on Nov 28, 2021 12:13:08 GMT -5
High End to me is the design, quality of parts that make the product work, the craftmanship (quality control) of the assembly and their warranty. That's where reliability is the main goal... then there's eye candy- that's for you to decide and it has nothing to do with "high end".
There is a point of no return on more money spent.
Electronics- don't get me going on electrolytic caps with "high-end" products.
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Post by brutiarti on Nov 28, 2021 12:13:51 GMT -5
Another example is furniture. The price tag goes to materials and labor. If it a famous designer add the name to the price tag.
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Post by 26gary26 on Nov 28, 2021 12:42:35 GMT -5
Many great points of interest have been expressed here. I think in most cases you get what you pay for. However there are always exceptions. Also there is nothing more satisfying than purchasing something you get great enjoyment from, HIGH END OR NOT.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 28, 2021 21:43:47 GMT -5
Well, a turntable I’ve wanted since it came out last summer, but immediately became unavailable, is back up … so I bought one. It’s not nearly in the same league as the Nagra, but it will be much easier to build a shelf for 🔨 🙂  |
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Post by pedrocols on Dec 1, 2021 13:39:42 GMT -5
I bet you still, even after plunking down $175k, need to upgrade the power cord. And some will argue that it sounds good for the price and that it is a bargain for what you get and this and that. You know the drill! In my opinion even if I can afford it it is simply silly to spend that kind of money on a TT. The fact that some people can afford it doesn't make it any less silly. But hey we all do silly and stupid stuff at times. Some people think that it is silly that I own over 120 pairs of shoes and boots and so do I but it is fun. |
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Dec 1, 2021 17:20:39 GMT -5
I'll drop the bar and talk about groceries. There are some store brand items that to me are just as good as name brand items but cost less. I pay less for the store brand and get better quality (or at least taste), to me anyway. However, there are some store brand items that don't taste as good as the name brand so I pay more to get the taste/quality. Silly comparison but the same idea. Price doesn't always dictate what's better!!
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 2, 2021 11:42:59 GMT -5
So, DYohn, let me get this straight. The Schiit Yggdrasil, one of the most revered DACs of all time, with innovative and unique technology, rated as THE peak performing DAC for year after year by the audio press, isn't "high end" because? Did it not cost enough? Is Schiit not prestigious enough? Are inferior DACs that cost a lot more "high end" while the Yggdrasil is not? Your contention that performance and engineering are not enough to qualify a product as "high end" is highly illogical (and profoundly wrong). Boomzilla |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 2, 2021 16:40:05 GMT -5
Your contention that performance and engineering are not enough to qualify a product as "high end" is highly illogical (and profoundly wrong). Boomzilla "Profoundly wrong?" Your opinion of course, which I say is pretty *bleep* profoundly uninformed. I own two Yggdrasils because they out-performed the high-end Wavelength and Kora DACs I owned previously. Both Yggdrasils cost 1/10 what the Wavelength did. The Yggdrasil is definitely a high-performance product but it is not high-end. The Wavelength was high-end because it was made with exotic components like hand-wound silver transformers and polished wood sides, oh and it cost around $40K. What makes something high-end is exclusivity. This means it is a boutique product, often custom or hand-made, and yes usually more expensive than more mainstream products. It's an elitist product. It is a luxury product. It is not for everyone. I used to live in the high-end world. I decided I no longer cared about the luxury, elitist aspects of audio and that I cared more for performance. That's when I started looking at brands like Emotiva, Schiit, Sonore, etc. Nothing any of those make is high-end. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 3, 2021 1:55:18 GMT -5
OK - It's strictly a difference in definition. We can agree to disagree (yet I still think you profoundly wrong, as you do me).
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Post by rbk123 on Dec 3, 2021 8:55:56 GMT -5
Yep, just a disagreement on semantics.
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