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Post by audiobill on Dec 12, 2021 1:04:51 GMT -5
Boom- are you sure you want to compare the Heathkit’s construction quality to the McIntosh? Does strain credibility just a tad….,
Best,
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 12, 2021 9:11:36 GMT -5
Right - YOU have to listen! But what you found to be great just might be worth me hearing.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 12, 2021 10:09:45 GMT -5
Boom- are you sure you want to compare the Heathkit’s construction quality to the McIntish? Does strain credibility just a tad…., Best, Not at all! This isn’t ABOUT construction quality - only about sound! In my listening rooms - to my ears - and with my equipment - EVERY one of those amps has brought tears to my eyes with the beauty of music they made. That’s MY measure of an amplifier’s quality. In fact , the qualities of construction varied wildly. The VTL amps failed almost immediately (and almost took an expensive pair of speakers with them), but while they worked - Glorious! My list is mostly useless to others unless you just happen to have access to the amps on the list, but I HAVE heard a LOT of amps over the years, and I stand by my comment that the list includes the “best of the best.” Boom |
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Post by DavidR on Dec 12, 2021 10:11:01 GMT -5
I’m going to throw in with garbulky on this. Not that I think that audible distortion at maximum output is an indication of audio quality at <1 watt (where we all listen) but rather that I do dear significant differences in amplifiers. In fact, after the room and the speakers, it’s often the amp that makes the biggest difference in sound. Some amps consistently hit home runs while the rest are only average. Amps I’ve lived with that I thought to be great: Emotiva XPA-1 & 2 models (1st or 2and gen. Only) Starke Sound A2.640 & their cheapest model Pioneer SA-52 integrated amp (1970s) McIntosh MC-352 Emotiva BasX 300 Crown PSA-2 Adcom GFA-1 My modified Heathkit tube monos Black Ice F-22 tube integrated VTL Compact-100 tube monos Emotiva PA-1 monos Can’t go wrong with any of those… But note that there is absolutely NOTHING in their specs, construction, or design that would make you think that these were exceptional amps - you just have to listen! But when you do, the differences aren’t subtle. Boom Change the PreAmp and the list might change here and there. That's my experience anyway. However, a great amp will always be on the list. |
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Post by rbk123 on Dec 12, 2021 10:47:05 GMT -5
In fact, after the room and the speakers, it’s often the amp that makes the biggest difference in sound. Nope. The preamp makes far more difference than the amp; by far. |
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Post by DavidR on Dec 12, 2021 10:53:03 GMT -5
In fact, after the room and the speakers, it’s often the amp that makes the biggest difference in sound. Nope. The preamp makes far more difference than the amp; by far. I agree a Pre amp will change some aspects of the amp's sound but a great amp will always be a great amp - Performance and sound. I've been thru enough of each and when you find that great amp you will know it is the amp and not the Pre.
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Dec 12, 2021 11:22:17 GMT -5
As has been demonstrated here, High End doesn't necessarily mean that a product it does what it does "the best", which leaves quite a bit to the interpreter.
An amp which was great in every way, right up until it catches fire (Krell circa 2006 when the recall was initiated).
An early 1970's Jaguar XKE V12, which according to a friend of my father's back when the car was new - "won't run for more than two weeks when it needed to be sent to his mechanic for adjustment".
The mechanical watch of your choice which can't compete with a $20 battery watch in keeping accurate time.
So, this is to point out that being the best at something doesn't mean it's the best at everything related to what that "thing" is supposed to be best at.
I assign a value of "beauty" for owning and wearing the watch I like the best. It's not really expensive, but it is very expensive for what it does, and is only accurate to within a few minutes a month. I'm not the only one who appreciates it as the watch gets compliments often.
All this gobble-dee-gook is to say that claiming something is high end is an assignment of some type of value, whether that's beauty, technical prowess, or in the case of the first post of this thread - massive over-design for the sake of technical recognition or art. There can be an appreciation for the amount of effort needed to be applied to make something that attempts to eliminate the inherent flaws turntables have, whether that's rumble, wow and flutter, tone arm alignment, etc. But can it play a Beatles' album backwards to hear secret messages? If not, then can it truly be High End?
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Post by AudioHTIT on Dec 12, 2021 11:23:30 GMT -5
I believe it’s not just the amp itself, but the synergy between amp and speaker that contributes to great sound (like the great batteries in baseball ⚾️). It may be however, that the greatest amps ‘synergize’ and create great sound with a wider array of speakers.
Though it seems this thread has gone off the rails, just because a great amp (or other component) might comfortably take its place in a high end system, doesn’t make it ‘high end’.
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Post by housetech on Dec 12, 2021 14:33:22 GMT -5
I use to love Pioneer integrated in the 70's, Made in Japan (wasn't everything? lol)
SA-7700 @ 60w/ch and SA-9500 @ 80w/ch (my fav integrated). Never had any issues with either, strong, clean & well built. Never owned Sansui, but they made a beast that was impressive.
Wish I had the SA-9500 today just to compare it to others.
I have no issues with the XPA-5 gen 2, but it doesn't blow me away, I've had better (2ch).
None of the above is "high end", but a value buy.
I had a Luxman 2-ch that was very nice; sweat, strong but looked blah. Luxman was supposed to be "high end"
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Post by garbulky on Dec 12, 2021 15:22:30 GMT -5
I probably misunderstood: “ But note that there is absolutely NOTHING in their specs, construction, or design that would make you think that these were exceptional amps” I think the list has a wide range of each of these attributes… His Heathkits weren't anything special when they were initially made back in the day. But with B'zilla's modifications, I thought they sounded absolutely fantastic! |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 12, 2021 15:27:46 GMT -5
His Heathkits weren't anything special when they were initially made back in the day. But with B'zilla's modifications, I thought they sounded absolutely fantastic! And still do! They won't play loudly, but for "normal" listening levels they just have dynamics and presence that few other amps can match. And should anyone be interested, the "modifications" were nothing more than ripping out the phono stage & preamp sections of each monophonic integrated amp and letting the power amp section have the extra current. Sprague "orange drop" caps & some 1% metal film resistors were the only other things done to them. I thought they sounded good, but had garbulky come over to see what he thought. He liked them too. Per his advice, I've never sold them. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 12, 2021 15:41:11 GMT -5
So, this thread is no longer about high-end audio I see.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 12, 2021 15:44:23 GMT -5
Nope - it morphed into "high-end SOUNDING audio." I'll move my future comments to another thread.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 12, 2021 16:08:13 GMT -5
His Heathkits weren't anything special when they were initially made back in the day. But with B'zilla's modifications, I thought they sounded absolutely fantastic! Perhaps, but my comment had to do with build quality. Not much can compare with McIntosh build quality. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 12, 2021 16:35:33 GMT -5
Not much can compare with McIntosh build quality. Maybe... Some of their latest efforts don't particularly impress me. Their HT equipment, in particular didn't look like anything special in terms of build. But that actually makes sense. HT equipment becomes obsolete LONG before it wears out. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 13, 2021 5:16:15 GMT -5
OK - Let's go back to high end for a moment... Assuming you just got left all of Mr. Bezos' estate, what speakers would you buy?
My choice would be the omnidirectional MBL Radialstrahler ones where the two speakers are stacked one atop the other. Omnidirectional launch pattern, almost unlimited dynamics, and on the TAS recommended list. My second choice would be the Magico horn-loaded speakers where the room itself is the bass horn.
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Post by audiobill on Dec 13, 2021 7:15:34 GMT -5
I might just buy those companies.....
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 13, 2021 7:53:46 GMT -5
OK - Let's go back to high end for a moment... Assuming you just got left all of Mr. Bezos' estate, what speakers would you buy? My choice would be the omnidirectional MBL Radialstrahler ones where the two speakers are stacked one atop the other. Omnidirectional launch pattern, almost unlimited dynamics, and on the TAS recommended list. My second choice would be the Magico horn-loaded speakers where the room itself is the bass horn. Top of the line Magico speakers (new)....followed by used Thiel CS3.7's...believe it or not....hooked on that Thiel sound. |
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Post by DavidR on Dec 13, 2021 10:25:44 GMT -5
Wilson or Legacy
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Post by DavidR on Dec 13, 2021 10:28:04 GMT -5
Boom- are you sure you want to compare the Heathkit’s construction quality to the McIntosh? Does strain credibility just a tad…., Best, Bill, what are the chances your beloved Mc amps are full of Chinese made parts? |
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