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Post by 405x5 on Dec 10, 2021 9:45:17 GMT -5
The difference is the general usage of the term high-end VS the specific usage of high-end audio that has been around for 40 years. All companies have their high-end products. High-end audio has a very specific meaning that I outlined. So it's not a disagreement, it's boomzilla misunderstanding the term in the audio world. What he said |
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Post by bonscott on Dec 10, 2021 9:52:09 GMT -5
High end products are differentiated by possessing aspirational qualities. As I taught my son, what you want is the product at the end of the sentence “just as good as….” And, how well is “rethinking the high end” working out? Well it was working really well for me. Back then I was interested in almost all of Emotiva's products. I saw some high end products at exorbitant prices from other companies. But I am more concerned with results. The ROI for results vs expenditure for the high end was just unrealistic for me. I see high end as "end-game" products. Ones people can buy and just sit back and be done with it. Yet I listened to some high end units, and I realized that I was not at all interested in them. Their performance and their price was lacking. In that way Emotiva's XPA-1 gen 2 amps fulfilled their purpose quite nicely. I still haven't heard a better amp. It's solidly built and fulfills every design feature I want from an amp. Like other Emo amps I've used show every sign of lasting a good long time. Couple that to an affordable price point, it made lots of sense. It was a winning formula that was well executed. Now though, I'm not convinced that Emotiva's representing a "rethinking high end" with their gen 3 amp models. I look at the line and I'm seeing examples of cost-cutting that I am not comfortable with. Plus we don't have a flagship two channel DAC or two channel preamp on sale right now. Their RMC-1 and XMC-2 hold promise, but I have been turned off with some missteps which have already been explored in detail. “Examples of cost cutting I am not comfortable with”. If cost cutting affected performance then yes but it does not. If the cost cutting affected the life of the product then yes. But since the Gen 3s have only been out about 3-4 years that would only be speculation. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 10, 2021 11:53:41 GMT -5
That's kind of what I was thinking...
The main change in our XPA Gen3 amps is that we've moved to a switch mode power supply (SMPS).
Does this cut costs? I'm not sure if the new power supplies actually cost us more or less than the linear power supplies that we used in the previous generations.
I can tell you that they are easier to handle, cost less to ship, and are far less at risk of shipping damage.
But, more importantly, the new power supply PERFORMS BETTER than the original. The new power supply is fully regulated... which is a big deal in terms of performance.
You won't find a big amplifier with a fully regulated linear power supply (at least not one that you can even hope to afford).
Our new switch mode power supply is also much quieter (it produces virtually zero 60 Hz hum leakage of any sort). And it has also turned out to be more reliable.
"Cutting costs" isn't always a bad thing...
Well it was working really well for me. Back then I was interested in almost all of Emotiva's products. I saw some high end products at exorbitant prices from other companies. But I am more concerned with results. The ROI for results vs expenditure for the high end was just unrealistic for me. I see high end as "end-game" products. Ones people can buy and just sit back and be done with it. Yet I listened to some high end units, and I realized that I was not at all interested in them. Their performance and their price was lacking. In that way Emotiva's XPA-1 gen 2 amps fulfilled their purpose quite nicely. I still haven't heard a better amp. It's solidly built and fulfills every design feature I want from an amp. Like other Emo amps I've used show every sign of lasting a good long time. Couple that to an affordable price point, it made lots of sense. It was a winning formula that was well executed. Now though, I'm not convinced that Emotiva's representing a "rethinking high end" with their gen 3 amp models. I look at the line and I'm seeing examples of cost-cutting that I am not comfortable with. Plus we don't have a flagship two channel DAC or two channel preamp on sale right now. Their RMC-1 and XMC-2 hold promise, but I have been turned off with some missteps which have already been explored in detail. “Examples of cost cutting I am not comfortable with”. If cost cutting affected performance then yes but it does not. If the cost cutting affected the life of the product then yes. But since the Gen 3s have only been out about 3-4 years that would only be speculation. |
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cawgijoe
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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 10, 2021 12:08:51 GMT -5
That's kind of what I was thinking... The main change in our XPA Gen3 amps is that we've moved to a switch mode power supply (SMPS). Does this cut costs? I'm not sure if the new power supplies actually cost us more or less than the linear power supplies that we used in the previous generations.
I can tell you that they are easier to handle, cost less to ship, and are far less at risk of shipping damage. But, more importantly, the new power supply PERFORMS BETTER than the original. The new power supply is fully regulated... which is a big deal in terms of performance.
You won't find a big amplifier with a fully regulated linear power supply (at least not one that you can even hope to afford).
Our new switch mode power supply is also much quieter (it produces virtually zero 60 Hz hum leakage of any sort). And it has also turned out to be more reliable.
"Cutting costs" isn't always a bad thing...
“Examples of cost cutting I am not comfortable with”. If cost cutting affected performance then yes but it does not. If the cost cutting affected the life of the product then yes. But since the Gen 3s have only been out about 3-4 years that would only be speculation. I really like my current XPA-5 Gen 3 versus my original XPA-5 Gen 1. It's lighter and more manuverable. I like that you can configure the chassis by adding "blades" as you need them. As to cost....not sure about that....my XPA-5 Gen 1 was less than $800 nine years ago or so....my current unit was much more expensive. |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,274
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Post by KeithL on Dec 10, 2021 12:10:29 GMT -5
Unfortunately the dollar itself also just doesn't go as far as it did nine years ago. That's kind of what I was thinking... The main change in our XPA Gen3 amps is that we've moved to a switch mode power supply (SMPS). Does this cut costs? I'm not sure if the new power supplies actually cost us more or less than the linear power supplies that we used in the previous generations.
I can tell you that they are easier to handle, cost less to ship, and are far less at risk of shipping damage. But, more importantly, the new power supply PERFORMS BETTER than the original. The new power supply is fully regulated... which is a big deal in terms of performance.
You won't find a big amplifier with a fully regulated linear power supply (at least not one that you can even hope to afford).
Our new switch mode power supply is also much quieter (it produces virtually zero 60 Hz hum leakage of any sort). And it has also turned out to be more reliable.
"Cutting costs" isn't always a bad thing...
I really like my current XPA-5 Gen 3 versus my original XPA-5 Gen 1. It's lighter and more manuverable. I like that you can configure the chassis by adding "blades" as you need them. As to cost....not sure about that....my XPA-5 Gen 1 was less than $800 nine years ago or so....my current unit was much more expensive. |
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cawgijoe
Emo VIPs
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,035
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 10, 2021 12:11:02 GMT -5
Unfortunately the dollar itself also just doesn't go as far as it did nine years ago. I really like my current XPA-5 Gen 3 versus my original XPA-5 Gen 1. It's lighter and more manuverable. I like that you can configure the chassis by adding "blades" as you need them. As to cost....not sure about that....my XPA-5 Gen 1 was less than $800 nine years ago or so....my current unit was much more expensive. Very true. There is also the labor cost of US assembly and test, which is fine by me. |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Dec 10, 2021 12:20:36 GMT -5
It's on sale for "only" $6000 ..... so only costs four times as much as an XPA-DR1. And, yes, it does have a "very aluminum-y look"... (And, no, I haven't heard one.)
…Emotiva's XPA-1 gen 2 amps…I still haven't heard a better amp… I (finally) have. The Starke Sound A2.640 bests the XPA-1,Gen. 2 amps in speed, detail, and imaging. Unfortunately, it costs almost $9,000. Not on my event horizon - but if I win the lottery… |
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Post by DavidR on Dec 10, 2021 12:46:40 GMT -5
Excuse me all but THIS is high-end
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Post by rbk123 on Dec 10, 2021 12:52:47 GMT -5
She looks like she's overheating. Best if she takes off a few layers, to be safe.
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Post by pedrocols on Dec 10, 2021 16:59:28 GMT -5
Excuse me all but THIS is high-end
You have 5 seconds to tell me what is the color of the turntable...🤣🤣🤣 |
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Post by DavidR on Dec 10, 2021 18:01:09 GMT -5
Excuse me all but THIS is high-end
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You have 5 seconds to tell me what is the color of the turntable...🤣🤣🤣 What TT ? |
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Post by garbulky on Dec 11, 2021 2:25:46 GMT -5
Well it was working really well for me. Back then I was interested in almost all of Emotiva's products. I saw some high end products at exorbitant prices from other companies. But I am more concerned with results. The ROI for results vs expenditure for the high end was just unrealistic for me. I see high end as "end-game" products. Ones people can buy and just sit back and be done with it. Yet I listened to some high end units, and I realized that I was not at all interested in them. Their performance and their price was lacking. In that way Emotiva's XPA-1 gen 2 amps fulfilled their purpose quite nicely. I still haven't heard a better amp. It's solidly built and fulfills every design feature I want from an amp. Like other Emo amps I've used show every sign of lasting a good long time. Couple that to an affordable price point, it made lots of sense. It was a winning formula that was well executed. Now though, I'm not convinced that Emotiva's representing a "rethinking high end" with their gen 3 amp models. I look at the line and I'm seeing examples of cost-cutting that I am not comfortable with. Plus we don't have a flagship two channel DAC or two channel preamp on sale right now. Their RMC-1 and XMC-2 hold promise, but I have been turned off with some missteps which have already been explored in detail. “Examples of cost cutting I am not comfortable with”. If cost cutting affected performance then yes but it does not. If the cost cutting affected the life of the product then yes. But since the Gen 3s have only been out about 3-4 years that would only be speculation. It depends on what you mean. For reliaibility, the first XPA-2 gen 3 I was going to listen to was DOA at a friend's place. So, that could be a one off occurence, but clearly didn't set me up for being impressed with durability. I don't know of anybody's XPA-1 gen 2 that has failed on the forum. For instance my friend and I have compared the XPA-2 gen 3 amp (single blade model) and though it didn't sound bad, both of us preferred the Bas-X A-300. I also preferred almost every other older model of Emotiva amps that I've listened to over the gen 3. Not saying the gen 3 sounded bad. It had some good features. It just surprisingly didn't really sound as good as I'm used to. The performance is also worse if you compare the XPA-1 gen 2 - in terms of distortion. XPA-1 gen 2 pushing 600 watts of power hometheaterhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/emotiva-xpa-1-gen-2-monoblock-power-amplifier-fig3-lg.jpghometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/power-amplifier/emotiva-xpa-1-gen-2-monoblock-power-amplifier-review/Stereophile's XPA-2 gen 3 revieiew XPA-2 gen 3 pushing 100 watts of power + IMD test  Yeah they aren't the same test. But you get the idea. Neither amp though can compare with current gen class D in low distortion. |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Dec 11, 2021 10:16:02 GMT -5
“Examples of cost cutting I am not comfortable with”. If cost cutting affected performance then yes but it does not. If the cost cutting affected the life of the product then yes. But since the Gen 3s have only been out about 3-4 years that would only be speculation. Yeah they aren't the same test. But you get the idea. Neither amp though can compare with current gen class D in low distortion. If this is a plot of G1 vs G3 distortion, then the data is indistinguishable. Red is one and blue is the other? Your comments are not based in anything other than your strong opinion. |
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Post by garbulky on Dec 11, 2021 12:23:17 GMT -5
Yeah they aren't the same test. But you get the idea. Neither amp though can compare with current gen class D in low distortion. If this is a plot of G1 vs G3 distortion, then the data is indistinguishable. Red is one and blue is the other? Your comments are not based in anything other than your strong opinion. Sorry there are two plots. The one you are seeing is of gen 3. The first plot of XPA-1 gen 2 didn't embed correctly. You'll have to click on the Home theater link to see it. |
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Post by audiobill on Dec 11, 2021 16:44:20 GMT -5
What do differences at these levels have to do with the enjoyment of music?
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Post by garbulky on Dec 11, 2021 17:40:32 GMT -5
What do differences at these levels have to do with the enjoyment of music? That distortion level is high enough to be audible. Though to be fair imd tests are pretty demanding circumstances |
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Post by audiobill on Dec 11, 2021 17:49:04 GMT -5
Nah, just ASR stuff.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 11, 2021 18:24:12 GMT -5
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 11, 2021 23:37:49 GMT -5
I’m going to throw in with garbulky on this. Not that I think that audible distortion at maximum output is an indication of audio quality at <1 watt (where we all listen) but rather that I do dear significant differences in amplifiers. In fact, after the room and the speakers, it’s often the amp that makes the biggest difference in sound. Some amps consistently hit home runs while the rest are only average. Amps I’ve lived with that I thought to be great: Emotiva XPA-1 & 2 models (1st or 2and gen. Only) Starke Sound A2.640 & their cheapest model Pioneer SA-52 integrated amp (1970s) McIntosh MC-352 Emotiva BasX 300 Crown PSA-2 Adcom GFA-1 My modified Heathkit tube monos Black Ice F-22 tube integrated VTL Compact-100 tube monos Emotiva PA-1 monos Can’t go wrong with any of those… But note that there is absolutely NOTHING in their specs, construction, or design that would make you think that these were exceptional amps - you just have to listen! But when you do, the differences aren’t subtle. Boom |
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Post by bonscott on Dec 12, 2021 0:21:30 GMT -5
I’m going to throw in with garbulky on this. Not that I think that audible distortion at maximum output is an indication of audio quality at <1 watt (where we all listen) but rather that I do dear significant differences in amplifiers. In fact, after the room and the speakers, it’s often the amp that makes the biggest difference in sound. Some amps consistently hit home runs while the rest are only average. Amps I’ve lived with that I thought to be great: Emotiva XPA-1 & 2 models (1st or 2and gen. Only) Starke Sound A2.640 & their cheapest model Pioneer SA-52 integrated amp (1970s) McIntosh MC-352 Emotiva BasX 300 Crown PSA-2 Adcom GFA-1 My modified Heathkit tube monos Black Ice F-22 tube integrated VTL Compact-100 tube monos Emotiva PA-1 monos Can’t go wrong with any of those… But note that there is absolutely NOTHING in their specs, construction, or design that would make you think that these were exceptional amps - you just have to listen! But when you do, the differences aren’t subtle. Boom “Some Amps consistently hit home runs while the rest are just average”. Who determines that? The people who purchase the Amps. They decide. Not people showing graphs. Not people over on ASR who pose as engineers and don’t have a clue as to what there talking about. Not people who give out a list of Amps and say. You can’t go wrong with any of these. If that were the case then everyone would have the exact same list. Because if you don’t hear a difference and paid twice as much. Something went wrong |
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