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Post by marcl on Nov 17, 2023 10:19:12 GMT -5
I tend to look at the color or finish of speakers the same way. I definitely have a preference for speakers that look like speakers. Given the choice I'll generally opt for real wood veneer, either walnut or oak, with an oiled finish, and a grill on the front. I also tend to prefer simple black or beige cloth grilles rather than contoured foam or fancy wooden fretwork grills. And, back in the days of old, if there was an option to get vinyl, or real wood veneer for a few dollars more, I would always opt for the real wood. I like speakers that look like speakers, as compared to ones that "disappear into the room", or ones that "look like modern art". (I look at furniture the same way; I bought my couch because it was comfortable and not because it looked pretty.) Also, just my personal preference: - I DO NOT like gloss piano black - because it shows dust far too easily. - I DO NOT like white - because, to me, that looks like the fixtures you find in a kitchen or a bathroom (and NOT like audio gear) - I also prefer an oiled wood finish over the shiny ones used on many modern speakers (to me that shiny finish just LOOKS like really nice plastic and not like wood - and I prefer wood) - I prefer to have grilles (rather than speakers that don't offer or include them) HOWEVER, all that said, I prioritize how they sound over how they look... So, while I might pay a little extra for good looks, I would never choose a speaker that LOOKS pretty over one that sounds better. (I've always chosen my speakers based on how they sound first... then asked what finish they come in later.) If you haven't seen them... Our current Airmotiv speakers have a black lacquer front panel, black textured vinyl wrap sides, and major facets or bevels on the fronts (and removable grills). The new models have a simpler cabinet design, minus the "facets", and with more discreet dress rings around the drivers. Some of the new models are slightly taller and narrower as well. Some of us preferred the old look but more folks we asked seem to prefer the new aesthetic. And, yes, they sound quite similar, and there is no problem "mixing and matching" old and new models. I agree with most of what you say. However, I would like to flesh out my previous comment about ‘disappearing in the room’. A speaker can be very noticeable and ‘disappear in the room’. All objects in a living space have one essential purpose. That is to complement the most important part of the room – The People who are in the room. When The People complement the Objects, something is ‘out of balance’ – Pun intended. One additional thing is certain. I DO NOT like Green Eggs and Ham!  The ultimate way to make a speaker disappear - a BIG speaker, even - is to buy a pair of Magnepan 3.7i or 20.7i and aim them 45 degrees to the side wall. When placed precisely, sitting at the MLP all you see is a dark edge about 2" wide. The speaker is essentially invisible. Then, if you have nice hard reflective side walls within 3-4ft of the speakers, you turn on the music ... and your mind is blown! |
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 17, 2023 10:41:35 GMT -5
I agree with most of what you say. However, I would like to flesh out my previous comment about ‘disappearing in the room’. A speaker can be very noticeable and ‘disappear in the room’. All objects in a living space have one essential purpose. That is to complement the most important part of the room – The People who are in the room. When The People complement the Objects, something is ‘out of balance’ – Pun intended. One additional thing is certain. I DO NOT like Green Eggs and Ham! The ultimate way to make a speaker disappear - a BIG speaker, even - is to buy a pair of Magnepan 3.7i or 20.7i and aim them 45 degrees to the side wall. When placed precisely, sitting at the MLP all you see is a dark edge about 2" wide. The speaker is essentially invisible. Then, if you have nice hard reflective side walls within 3-4ft of the speakers, you turn on the music ... and your mind is blown! We have been down this dipole discussion road before. I have a long history with dipoles. I owned MG 2b, Acoustat 3, Acoustat 2+2, Audire (not the current company) 6 panel full rang ribbons, and ESS Heils in the past. Friends with whose systems I have extensive listening experience owned Magnepan Tympany, Quad ESL-57, Acoustat X, Acoustat 2, Custom Acoustat panel systems, Audio Amateur home built electrostats, and Strathern ribbons. I don't share your speaker philosophy, selection choices, or layout suggestions. While I enjoyed all these systems, my mind changed with new knowledge and experience. As Dipoles go, in my opinion, in the right room, there is nothing that beats a pair of Quad ESL-57 speakers designed in the 1950's. Volume is limited, but a pair of ESL-57s Will blow your mind. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 17, 2023 10:49:57 GMT -5
Interesting take... and I sort of agree... but not entirely... (I'll also admit that my attitude on this has changed over time.) When I was younger I actually had a dedicated listening room... And, in that room, the music was the most important thing. So, for example, my listening chair, and my speakers, were all arranged where they sounded the best, and not necessarily where they were convenient to me. Back then I also listened mostly to vinyl... and I tended to look at the accoutrements of playing albums the same way. Yes, to a point, I enjoyed handling the albums, and operating the machinery... But, more often, I looked at thinks like cleaning albums as "things you had to put up with in order to listen to the music properly"... (Much as I imagine that, if I loved great art, I would have felt about having to turn on a special light to look at a certain painting "properly".) Back in those days, if I was "in a serious listening mood", I didn't notice the room, because I always listened with the lights off... to avoid distractions. (And there was no way that seeing the room wasn't going to be a distraction - at least to some degree.) (And, yes, unlike many people, I would have considered the album art, and the liner notes, to be "a distraction" rather than "an essential part of the experience".) I also have no notion of "making my room disappear and replacing it with the original venue". I listen to mostly pop and rock music, so the band wouldn't fit in my living room, and I really can't imagine them being there... And, to be quite blunt, I would not be at all happy if the system in my living room could duplicate my favorite band's live performances perfectly... Because the few times I've seen them live they didn't sound nearly as good as their studio albums sound on my system at home. I guess what I'm suggesting is that, when I'm doing "serious listening", I'm generally willing to allow the system to be "the most important thing"... And I am willing to allow what I want in other contexts to be superseded by "whatever the system needs me to do in order to hear the music the best"... Now, to be quite fair, as I've gotten older, I've come more around to what you said... Where now I consider some of "the requirements of the music" to be secondary to the requirements of ME... the listener. So, for example, now I arrange my speakers to sound best when I sit in my favorite chair, rather than placing my favorite chair where it sounds best with my speakers. However a small part of myself still "feels bad about making such a significant concession to convenience over absolute performance". (I also feel a pang of guilt that I'm usually too lazy to calibrate my computer monitors these days too.) ............................................................ I agree with most of what you say. However, I would like to flesh out my previous comment about ‘disappearing in the room’. A speaker can be very noticeable and ‘disappear in the room’. All objects in a living space have one essential purpose. That is to complement the most important part of the room – The People who are in the room. When The People complement the Objects, something is ‘out of balance’ – Pun intended. One additional thing is certain. I DO NOT like Green Eggs and Ham! |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 17, 2023 11:07:25 GMT -5
I'm going to share my sentiments here... Please note that these are my personal feelings on the subject... so feel free to disagree... I personally DO NOT like dipole speakers. I absolutely love the way electrostatic headphones sound... (I find them far superior to any of the other sorts). And, for the same reasons, I prefer the sound of electrostatic speakers... However, to be quite honest, I prefer electrostatic speakers in spite of the fact that they're dipoles rather than because they're dipoles.... I find that, specifically with the sort of music that I listen to, dipoles tend to offer too diffuse of a presentation... To me they cross a line to being too open and airy. (Yes, you can avoid this to some degree, with careful placement, and good room acoustics, but I definitely see it as a drawback rather than a benefit.) If I could design the perfect speaker for myself it would be an electrostatic panel with a huge box full of absorbent material behind it. (A non-dipole electrostatic panel. Picture a refrigerator carton filled with layer after layer of felt wedges and baffles.) That way it could have the other attributes of an electrostatic speaker without being a dipole. (I think electrostatic headphones deliver the ultimate in sound quality and, by definition, headphones are not dipoles.) That's why I personally am not a huge fan of Magneplanars... (I consider their being dipoles to be a drawback... and I find them otherwise interesting but not especially impressive.) And, yes, I find the current generation of "folded ribbon" drivers like we use to be about as close as you can get to electrostatics with a monopolar dynamic driver. And, as an aside for those who didn't realize it, the current "folded ribbon" drivers are in fact the latest incarnation of the "Heil AMT". They just use polyimide (Kapton), a much better modern plastic, for the diaphragm, and modern magnets that are a lot more powerful, while also being a lot smaller. The ultimate way to make a speaker disappear - a BIG speaker, even - is to buy a pair of Magnepan 3.7i or 20.7i and aim them 45 degrees to the side wall. When placed precisely, sitting at the MLP all you see is a dark edge about 2" wide. The speaker is essentially invisible. Then, if you have nice hard reflective side walls within 3-4ft of the speakers, you turn on the music ... and your mind is blown! We have been down this dipole discussion road before. I have a long history with dipoles. I owned MG 2b, Acoustat 3, Acoustat 2+2, Audire (not the current company) 6 panel full rang ribbons, and ESS Heils in the past. Friends with whose systems I have extensive listening experience owned Magnepan Tympany, Quad ESL-57, Acoustat X, Acoustat 2, Custom Acoustat panel systems, Audio Amateur home built electrostats, and Strathern ribbons. I don't share your speaker philosophy, selection choices, or layout suggestions. While I enjoyed all these systems, my mind changed with new knowledge and experience. As Dipoles go, in my opinion, in the right room, there is nothing that beats a pair of Quad ESL-57 speakers designed in the 1950's. Volume is limited, but a pair of ESL-57s Will blow your mind. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 17, 2023 11:19:18 GMT -5
Unfortunately nowadays using real wood veneer raises the cost in several different ways. - a real wood veneer finish costs more to manufacture - any given real wood veneer tends to be "polarizing" rather than "customer neutral" (for any given one, some customers like it, and some don't, which leads to having to offer multiple different options, which raises the cost even more) - real wood veneer is both more subject to shipping damage and looks worse when it is damaged (this means more likelihood of minor but visible shipping damage when they go out) (it also means that, if you want to accept returns, they're more likely to arrive back in "unsalable condition" - even for "B-stock") This is why you often end up literally paying twice as much or more for "the same innards" if you want nice veneer. And, unfortunately, you will also find it nearly impossible to find a good local craftsman who can put fancy veneer on speakers you purchase without it. (And, if you do find one, they will tend to expect a lot of money for their services.) You'll notice the same dichotomy with furniture... These days most furniture is either cheap, with a vinyl finish, or VERY EXPENSIVE, with a real wood veneer... (It also tends to be "polarizing". For example, you either love that blonde wood Ikea uses on a lot of their furniture, or you hate it.) This is something we've looked into several times... and continue to look into... I personally choose black for a component if given a choice. Black seems eternal. For speakers, if black, I prefer a gloss finish just because they look nicer to me. I realize thye can distract especially in a home theater environment due to refflections and are also finger print magnets, but I still like the look. The real wood veneer on my Thiel CS1.6 speakers is amazing. The company was known for their wood finishes and they did them right. I took a tour of their facility prior to Jim Thiel's death and asked why they didn't use vinyl to save money and lower cost, and the response was that customers wanted and sought out the real wood veneer. You definitely paid a premium for this, but again the finish is extra-ordinary. I do find the Emotiva speakers to be well made and a tremendous value. |
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 17, 2023 11:47:52 GMT -5
Interesting take... and I sort of agree... but not entirely... (I'll also admit that my attitude on this has changed over time.) When I was younger I actually had a dedicated listening room... And, in that room, the music was the most important thing. So, for example, my listening chair, and my speakers, were all arranged where they sounded the best, and not necessarily where they were convenient to me. Back then I also listened mostly to vinyl... and I tended to look at the accoutrements of playing albums the same way. Yes, to a point, I enjoyed handling the albums, and operating the machinery... But, more often, I looked at thinks like cleaning albums as "things you had to put up with in order to listen to the music properly"... (Much as I imagine that, if I loved great art, I would have felt about having to turn on a special light to look at a certain painting "properly".) Back in those days, if I was "in a serious listening mood", I didn't notice the room, because I always listened with the lights off... to avoid distractions. (And there was no way that seeing the room wasn't going to be a distraction - at least to some degree.) (And, yes, unlike many people, I would have considered the album art, and the liner notes, to be "a distraction" rather than "an essential part of the experience".) I also have no notion of "making my room disappear and replacing it with the original venue". I listen to mostly pop and rock music, so the band wouldn't fit in my living room, and I really can't imagine them being there... And, to be quite blunt, I would not be at all happy if the system in my living room could duplicate my favorite band's live performances perfectly... Because the few times I've seen them live they didn't sound nearly as good as their studio albums sound on my system at home. I guess what I'm suggesting is that, when I'm doing "serious listening", I'm generally willing to allow the system to be "the most important thing"... And I am willing to allow what I want in other contexts to be superseded by "whatever the system needs me to do in order to hear the music the best"... Now, to be quite fair, as I've gotten older, I've come more around to what you said... Where now I consider some of "the requirements of the music" to be secondary to the requirements of ME... the listener. So, for example, now I arrange my speakers to sound best when I sit in my favorite chair, rather than placing my favorite chair where it sounds best with my speakers. However a small part of myself still "feels bad about making such a significant concession to convenience over absolute performance". (I also feel a pang of guilt that I'm usually too lazy to calibrate my computer monitors these days too.) I agree with most of what you say. However, I would like to flesh out my previous comment about ‘disappearing in the room’. A speaker can be very noticeable and ‘disappear in the room’. All objects in a living space have one essential purpose. That is to complement the most important part of the room – The People who are in the room. When The People complement the Objects, something is ‘out of balance’ – Pun intended. One additional thing is certain. I DO NOT like Green Eggs and Ham! I think I need to make a couple of important distinctions here. Making the speakers disappear in the aesthetics of a room is not the same subject as making the sound source disappear in the room. Making the sound source appear in the room is not the same as making the room sound disappear in the reproduction of a recording. (I sense an argument for Dirac on the horizon). I prefer that spaciousness be defined by the recording; Not by the listening room. Some prefer spaciousness be defined by the listening space – in this situation, the ‘band’ is confined to the room. Room sound cannot be eliminated, but can be tamed with good speaker/room integration. Room sound homogenizes different recording techniques. Bass below the Schroeder Frequency is a compromise no matter what approach is taken. It’s hard to have this discussion because of the various opinions that distract from an objective view of reproduction in a room, and the various ways that words are interpreted and reinterpreted. People should try to experience a pair of speakers played outside. Use the same/similar speakers as in your home listening room, using familiar music. It’s a real ear opener. BTW – I have recordings of ‘Ride of the Valkyries’ respectively recorded in coincident and spaced omni mic techniques. The perspective is very different. I enjoyed your ‘Flight of the Valkyries’ comment a couple of days ago. It wasn’t a chuckle at your expense, but a memory of my own past experience. I prefer convenience and performance. We are not going to completely get both in a home listening room of any type. I try to make the overlap as great as possible, and pick compromises that suit me. I never liked cleaning LPs even though I spent time and money doing it. Now, I just wipe them with an antistatic brush and play them. |
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 17, 2023 11:57:08 GMT -5
I'm going to share my sentiments here... Please note that these are my personal feelings on the subject... so feel free to disagree... I personally DO NOT like dipole speakers. I absolutely love the way electrostatic headphones sound... (I find them far superior to any of the other sorts). And, for the same reasons, I prefer the sound of electrostatic speakers... However, to be quite honest, I prefer electrostatic speakers in spite of the fact that they're dipoles rather than because they're dipoles.... I find that, specifically with the sort of music that I listen to, dipoles tend to offer too diffuse of a presentation... To me they cross a line to being too open and airy. (Yes, you can avoid this to some degree, with careful placement, and good room acoustics, but I definitely see it as a drawback rather than a benefit.) If I could design the perfect speaker for myself it would be an electrostatic panel with a huge box full of absorbent material behind it. (A non-dipole electrostatic panel. Picture a refrigerator carton filled with layer after layer of felt wedges and baffles.) That way it could have the other attributes of an electrostatic speaker without being a dipole. (I think electrostatic headphones deliver the ultimate in sound quality and, by definition, headphones are not dipoles.) That's why I personally am not a huge fan of Magneplanars... (I consider their being dipoles to be a drawback... and I find them otherwise interesting but not especially impressive.) And, yes, I find the current generation of "folded ribbon" drivers like we use to be about as close as you can get to electrostatics with a monopolar dynamic driver. And, as an aside for those who didn't realize it, the current "folded ribbon" drivers are in fact the latest incarnation of the "Heil AMT". They just use polyimide (Kapton), a much better modern plastic, for the diaphragm, and modern magnets that are a lot more powerful, while also being a lot smaller. We have been down this dipole discussion road before. I have a long history with dipoles. I owned MG 2b, Acoustat 3, Acoustat 2+2, Audire (not the current company) 6 panel full rang ribbons, and ESS Heils in the past. Friends with whose systems I have extensive listening experience owned Magnepan Tympany, Quad ESL-57, Acoustat X, Acoustat 2, Custom Acoustat panel systems, Audio Amateur home built electrostats, and Strathern ribbons. I don't share your speaker philosophy, selection choices, or layout suggestions. While I enjoyed all these systems, my mind changed with new knowledge and experience. As Dipoles go, in my opinion, in the right room, there is nothing that beats a pair of Quad ESL-57 speakers designed in the 1950's. Volume is limited, but a pair of ESL-57s Will blow your mind. ^^^^^ Two Thumbs Up for your whole post! The best dipole is one where I can throw away the back-wave. This requires an infinite baffle, a box like you describe - like in the old Jantzen or Beveridge electrostats, a Very Large room where the back and side walls are at least 10' away giving far field reflections, or near field listening. A pair of Quad ESL-57's in the right environment is magical. They are not practical in any multi-channel room. IIRC, the Quads (including current models) do have a felt damping mat at the rear of the panels to absorb backwave. Personally, I do like a large format CD/waveguide solution more than a Heil AMT. The Emotiva AMT solution is more practical and more cost effective for most environments. The AMT is one of the best tweeter solutions. Kudos to Emotive for using it. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Nov 17, 2023 12:24:24 GMT -5
Unfortunately nowadays using real wood veneer raises the cost in several different ways. - a real wood veneer finish costs more to manufacture - any given real wood veneer tends to be "polarizing" rather than "customer neutral" (for any given one, some customers like it, and some don't, which leads to having to offer multiple different options, which raises the cost even more) - real wood veneer is both more subject to shipping damage and looks worse when it is damaged (this means more likelihood of minor but visible shipping damage when they go out) (it also means that, if you want to accept returns, they're more likely to arrive back in "unsalable condition" - even for "B-stock") This is why you often end up literally paying twice as much or more for "the same innards" if you want nice veneer. And, unfortunately, you will also find it nearly impossible to find a good local craftsman who can put fancy veneer on speakers you purchase without it. (And, if you do find one, they will tend to expect a lot of money for their services.) You'll notice the same dichotomy with furniture... These days most furniture is either cheap, with a vinyl finish, or VERY EXPENSIVE, with a real wood veneer... (It also tends to be "polarizing". For example, you either love that blonde wood Ikea uses on a lot of their furniture, or you hate it.) This is something we've looked into several times... and continue to look into... I personally choose black for a component if given a choice. Black seems eternal. For speakers, if black, I prefer a gloss finish just because they look nicer to me. I realize thye can distract especially in a home theater environment due to refflections and are also finger print magnets, but I still like the look. The real wood veneer on my Thiel CS1.6 speakers is amazing. The company was known for their wood finishes and they did them right. I took a tour of their facility prior to Jim Thiel's death and asked why they didn't use vinyl to save money and lower cost, and the response was that customers wanted and sought out the real wood veneer. You definitely paid a premium for this, but again the finish is extra-ordinary. I do find the Emotiva speakers to be well made and a tremendous value. Makes sense. However, when Thiel was making speakers they gave you a choice of "standard" wood finsihes which included black ash, amberwood, and natual cherry. They also had other woods you could buy at an upcharge. Jim Thiel's brother was the woodworker and did that job when the company started in the proverbial garage. So, yes the cost was higher than the standard finish and wraps of today, but audiophiles were willing to pay so that was part of the business model. On a sidenote, a friend of mine purchased a used pair of CS2.2's years ago which had sustained top corner damage from shipping. A corner was slightly "crushed", damaging the veneer. He found a local furniture repair man who came to his house and repaired the damage. You could not tell that they had been damaged. I was amazed. At the time the labor cost wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. So, is it possible in this day and age to make money selling speakers with real would veneer? I don't know. Maybe...maybe not. Like you, I am willing to pay a bit more for real would veneer, but not a big amount. Speaker performance is moe important to me also. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Nov 17, 2023 12:39:01 GMT -5
I like the look of Emotiva's speakers. I do own a pair of Airmotiv B1+ speakers. I would like to see a couple of different color choices in the vinyl, even if it's just the top/sides/bottom/back, with black in front. Maybe a darker wood and a lighter wood along with the current black.I can't imagine different color vinyl would cost much more, if anything. I would also like to see an upgrade to the speaker connectors. A higher quality connector would be nice. Keep the magnetic grills.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
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Post by pop on Nov 17, 2023 15:06:17 GMT -5
Personally, I want something incredibly retro from Emotiva. I’d pay extra for a wood finish, cloth grills, and a pleasant soft dome tweeter. I’ve lived with the Emotiva look for a long time and I’m ready for a refresh. My taste has changed, and evolved.
I don’t expect Emotiva to jump hoops for me, but if the market was even there for a limited release drop I’d give you a deposit right now. Release the retro line of components too. Charge more for them. They will sell. If they don’t never do it again. Something fun, something new.
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vega
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Post by vega on Nov 19, 2023 19:10:50 GMT -5
Thanks Keith for the snippets on the new speakers I’m looking forward to seeing them. Sounds like they will have driver trim rings 👍🏻 I understand real wood veneer is expensive. Another option premium over the vinyl wraps could be the same matte and gloss paint finishes that were on the RS line of subs. I love the look of my matte RS11! I would absolutely love to see Emotiva do a retro speaker with a modern take, say a 12” woofer 3 way I’m sure it would sell. These speakers are gaining popularity again.
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Post by leonski on Nov 21, 2023 3:22:12 GMT -5
I've got to chime in with a comment here... So "the modern space age black and blue look is dated"... So would you be wanting something MORE modern (perhaps something shiny, with antennae on top, like Judy Jetson would just adore)? Or would you be wanting something REALLY RETRO (like those pretty vintage speakers that have a cloth grill with decorative "wooden grating" over it)? I've always personally liked rectangular wood boxes, with real wood veneer, and a nice oiled finish (not that mirror shiny finish that looks like plastic). (What a certain old-time reviewer often referred to as "monkey coffins".) How about these: www.etsy.com/listing/1366141182/vintage-mid-century-modern-spaceOr these: i.pinimg.com/736x/65/bb/84/65bb84781decfc6ae1cc4b97d404fac1.jpgOr maybe these (a true classic; solid metal; in black or silver): www.whathifi.com/kef/kht3005-hd2/reviewAlthough I wouldn't at all rule it out... in general fancy wood veneer tends not to fit well with our price model. (You tend to end up paying a lot for the finish, which kills the "price / performance ratio" unless you really place a high value on aesthetics, and tastes vary rather widely anyway.) That is the truth! I wanted to upgrade my Stealth 8 To some Adam Audio, I auditioned them and heard very minor improvements. When I worked at an audio shop for a couple years, I brought in an XPA2 to AB a MC452. I conducted it blind and 60% of the votes went to the Emotiva, which tells me that nobody could really discern any true differences. I have no doubt the new speakers will sound amazing, but will they have the look? the modern space age black and blue is pretty dated. I hope they change this. Speakers in the KLIPSCH Heritage line all have book matched real wood veneers. Timeless / Classy and requires periodic Wood Oil! Retro enough for 'ya? JBL did a retro...which I suspect you can still get. And Yes.....a 12" 3-way with level controls...which I'd get where I wanted, measure, and replace with resistors...... The L100 is back again for another go... |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 21, 2023 9:34:40 GMT -5
Actually they do look quite nice... Although I wouldn't have minded a little bit of detail... or bevel... or something... around the edge... (Too bad they're so expensive... and I really don't especially like the sound of Klipsch speakers... at least the ones I've heard.) As for JBL... I never especially liked that foam grille... with the square grid pattern... when it was new... (I think it looks OK in black or brown but I think the orange and blue just look silly.) They also tended to be both a bit thumpy and a bit bright (the classic "smiley face" EQ curve). Now, if THESE were in good shape, I would consider them to be nearly ideal looking speakers. Advent Larger Loudspeakers... in the real oiled walnut veneer. And, yes, I did actually own a pair of these - although not this pair - when they were new. I think I paid $50 extra - probably each - for the real wood veneer finish. (Great bass... at least for those days... but a little weak in the midrange... and a lot weak in the top end.) (And, yes, I do think black grills are just fine too... or even ones with a little texture to them.)  I've got to chime in with a comment here... So "the modern space age black and blue look is dated"... So would you be wanting something MORE modern (perhaps something shiny, with antennae on top, like Judy Jetson would just adore)? Or would you be wanting something REALLY RETRO (like those pretty vintage speakers that have a cloth grill with decorative "wooden grating" over it)? I've always personally liked rectangular wood boxes, with real wood veneer, and a nice oiled finish (not that mirror shiny finish that looks like plastic). (What a certain old-time reviewer often referred to as "monkey coffins".) How about these: www.etsy.com/listing/1366141182/vintage-mid-century-modern-spaceOr these: i.pinimg.com/736x/65/bb/84/65bb84781decfc6ae1cc4b97d404fac1.jpgOr maybe these (a true classic; solid metal; in black or silver): www.whathifi.com/kef/kht3005-hd2/reviewAlthough I wouldn't at all rule it out... in general fancy wood veneer tends not to fit well with our price model. (You tend to end up paying a lot for the finish, which kills the "price / performance ratio" unless you really place a high value on aesthetics, and tastes vary rather widely anyway.) Speakers in the KLIPSCH Heritage line all have book matched real wood veneers. Timeless / Classy and requires periodic Wood Oil! Retro enough for 'ya? JBL did a retro...which I suspect you can still get. And Yes.....a 12" 3-way with level controls...which I'd get where I wanted, measure, and replace with resistors...... The L100 is back again for another go... |
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Post by leonski on Nov 21, 2023 13:32:02 GMT -5
Keith, the ORIGINAL Large Advent was a milestone speaker and to ME sounded terrific. And only needed 30 or 40 watts. The idiot upstairs had a set of 4 (!) and an early
Sansui Quadrophonic receiver.....Or was it another brand? I couldn't even afford the Utility Black....let alone the real wood veneer!
But it was really nice.
Made me want to toss my 'Mistake To Buy' speakers in the dump....where they ended up, anyway. And replaced with another CLASSIC of the 12" 3-way wars.....
My RSL 3600 studio monitors were an Exceptional copy of the JBL 4311 / L100.....But not as good as the L110....
Some claim for the Advent was 'Best Sound short of Cost-No-Object'.
As a matter of just interest.....you MAY want to wander over to wherever you can to LISTEN to the new 'Mark IV' version of the Klipsch. The Cornwall, Forte and Heresy
are revoiced and use I think....the SAME tweeter...which gives some 'commonality' to the line. Midrange is a little different....I'm not certain, but same driver with a different
HORN on the upper models. The Heresy hasn't the front panel area for that larger horn...and suffers for it....
The BASS remaims untouched, but from there UP is improved. Klipsch blamed (credits?) higher slope crossovers and a new phase plug....sounds painful.....
I WILL go back for another listen and bring my A23 amp of 125x2 which should be quite sufficient......
For the KLIPSCH.....(last time....for this post) I would tend toward the CHERRY veneer with the Lambswool grill. Not stock, I suspect some kind of weird uncharge......
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vega
Minor Hero
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Post by vega on Nov 21, 2023 15:49:38 GMT -5
With Keith’s history and like for these old floorstanders,Perhaps we have a chance to see a Emotiva “0ld school” with a modern take 12” 3 way floor standing speaker in the future?🔈👍🏻
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Nov 21, 2023 17:48:06 GMT -5
To be quite candid Big Dan has been toying with the idea of making a big retro speaker... Probably something with a big woofer... and maybe a midrange horn... and maybe a horn loaded folded ribbon tweeter... and maybe even a retro-style cabinet. But, at least so far, that hasn't made it past the drawing board... But, as they say, you never know.  With Keith’s history and like for these old floorstanders,Perhaps we have a chance to see a Emotiva “0ld school” with a modern take 12” 3 way floor standing speaker in the future?🔈👍🏻 |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Nov 21, 2023 18:01:21 GMT -5
A "Double Advent" was actually also "a thing"... You set up one pair... Then stacked another pair on top of them... With the upper pair upside down, so the tweeters were closer together, in a sort of a vertical M-T-T-M arrangement... I actually heard them done this way... and the result was quite impressive... and had some serious street cred... community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/5746-stacked-advents-as-reviewed-by-the-absolute-sound-magazine/However, while I don't recall what the actual measurements looked like, it was sort of obvious that the "orange peel" tweeter didn't go especially high... And, while there wasn't an actual hole in the midrange, it wasn't as clear as the midrange from some of the better three-way speakers around at the same time. (But their bass was absolutely incredible and they did sound very smooth and altogether quite good.) Keith, the ORIGINAL Large Advent was a milestone speaker and to ME sounded terrific. And only needed 30 or 40 watts. The idiot upstairs had a set of 4 (!) and an early Sansui Quadrophonic receiver.....Or was it another brand? I couldn't even afford the Utility Black....let alone the real wood veneer! But it was really nice. Made me want to toss my 'Mistake To Buy' speakers in the dump....where they ended up, anyway. And replaced with another CLASSIC of the 12" 3-way wars..... My RSL 3600 studio monitors were an Exceptional copy of the JBL 4311 / L100.....But not as good as the L110.... Some claim for the Advent was 'Best Sound short of Cost-No-Object'. As a matter of just interest.....you MAY want to wander over to wherever you can to LISTEN to the new 'Mark IV' version of the Klipsch. The Cornwall, Forte and Heresy are revoiced and use I think....the SAME tweeter...which gives some 'commonality' to the line. Midrange is a little different....I'm not certain, but same driver with a different HORN on the upper models. The Heresy hasn't the front panel area for that larger horn...and suffers for it.... The BASS remaims untouched, but from there UP is improved. Klipsch blamed (credits?) higher slope crossovers and a new phase plug....sounds painful..... I WILL go back for another listen and bring my A23 amp of 125x2 which should be quite sufficient...... For the KLIPSCH.....(last time....for this post) I would tend toward the CHERRY veneer with the Lambswool grill. Not stock, I suspect some kind of weird uncharge...... |
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Post by marcl on Nov 21, 2023 19:19:20 GMT -5
A "Double Advent" was actually also "a thing"... You set up one pair... Then stacked another pair on top of them... With the upper pair upside down, so the tweeters were closer together, in a sort of a vertical M-T-T-M arrangement... I actually heard them done this way... and the result was quite impressive... and had some serious street cred... community.classicspeakerpages.net/topic/5746-stacked-advents-as-reviewed-by-the-absolute-sound-magazine/However, while I don't recall what the actual measurements looked like, it was sort of obvious that the "orange peel" tweeter didn't go especially high... And, while there wasn't an actual hole in the midrange, it wasn't as clear as the midrange from some of the better three-way speakers around at the same time. (But their bass was absolutely incredible and they did sound very smooth and altogether quite good.) Keith, the ORIGINAL Large Advent was a milestone speaker and to ME sounded terrific. And only needed 30 or 40 watts. The idiot upstairs had a set of 4 (!) and an early Sansui Quadrophonic receiver.....Or was it another brand? I couldn't even afford the Utility Black....let alone the real wood veneer! But it was really nice. Made me want to toss my 'Mistake To Buy' speakers in the dump....where they ended up, anyway. And replaced with another CLASSIC of the 12" 3-way wars..... My RSL 3600 studio monitors were an Exceptional copy of the JBL 4311 / L100.....But not as good as the L110.... Some claim for the Advent was 'Best Sound short of Cost-No-Object'. As a matter of just interest.....you MAY want to wander over to wherever you can to LISTEN to the new 'Mark IV' version of the Klipsch. The Cornwall, Forte and Heresy are revoiced and use I think....the SAME tweeter...which gives some 'commonality' to the line. Midrange is a little different....I'm not certain, but same driver with a different HORN on the upper models. The Heresy hasn't the front panel area for that larger horn...and suffers for it.... The BASS remaims untouched, but from there UP is improved. Klipsch blamed (credits?) higher slope crossovers and a new phase plug....sounds painful..... I WILL go back for another listen and bring my A23 amp of 125x2 which should be quite sufficient...... For the KLIPSCH.....(last time....for this post) I would tend toward the CHERRY veneer with the Lambswool grill. Not stock, I suspect some kind of weird uncharge...... Yeah I remember that too. So I bought these Smaller Advents to use as "rear" speakers 40 years ago. I refoamed the woofers a couple years ago and they sounded real good in the bedroom ... measured easily down under 40Hz. But I used them a month as surrounds in the main system while I was getting Maggies repaired and even as surrounds I could tell the Maggie LRS - except for low bass - sounded a lot better. But still ... I need to sell these things to someone who wants them because they do sound like they sound ... for someone who wants how they sound. |
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Post by leonski on Nov 21, 2023 19:50:24 GMT -5
I did 'double' RSL at a party once. Tweeters as near to one-another as possible.....top speaker 'upside down'......
And Keith? ALL the Klipsch are manufactured in Hope Arkansas. original home of the company now houses the 'museuem' of Klipsch......
they go back over 75 years, so probably have some neat artifacts on display.....
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vega
Minor Hero
Posts: 30
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Post by vega on Nov 21, 2023 20:00:18 GMT -5
Dan if your listening,your idea of a retro speaker sounds awesome! I think it could even introduce a new crowd into Emotiva. The trick would be to make it look really good. Part retro part modern. Good to know there is a chance to see this kind of speaker. Thanks for the insight Keith
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