UMC: Auto does NOT pass 1080p/24 through for me

[venaka]

Feb 8, 2010 9:29:57 GMT -5 markd said:

Solid-
venaka-

I answered the question about why 24 is better than 60 here- emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=preamps&thread=9068&page=3#139180

bootman is adding more data- but the key is that every frame is duplicated the same number of times when working with a film source. If you take 24 and bring it to 60, you repeat some frames twice, and some three times. This causes visual artifacts if there is motion in the material.

thanks, I will find out as soon as I get home and post results.

[Dan Laufman]

Hi All,
I'd like to offer some clarification on the output resolution settings of the UMC-1. I know Lonnie has advised on this item too, but one more time won't hurt.

OK, here we go:
When initially setting up your UMC-1, the output resolution setting is AUTO. The UMC-1 shares EDID information with the display and sets its output resolution according to the preferred display device resolution. This is determined by the display, not the UMC-1.

If you you want the UMC-1 to "force" the display to accept a different output resolution than the one the EDID information has decided, simply set the output resolution to one that you prefer. If the set is able to display that resolution, you will get it.

If you want to have the source device (i.e. your BluRay, cable box, etc.), to act as the master device when determining output resolution and frame rate, then set the UMC-1 to BYPASS mode. At that point in time, what does in is what goes out. This how you are able to view 24fps source material without it being bumped to the output setting that is either automatically detected by the UMC-1, or manually set by you.

Frankly speaking, I always leave the UMC-1 in 1080p 60Hz on my system as I find the overall results to be more pleasing to me. I know I'm not the definitive source for what is good or bad in terms of video quality, I'm just stating what I prefer. I also am able to take advantage of their very powerful, and IMHO, beautiful image processing capabilities of the UMC-1's video engine. Don't' start yelling at me for not being a purest, it's just what I like!

A point to remember and one that that has been mentioned by others too, not all displays will handle 1080p 24 fps "natively"; that is they will accept the input signal at that resolution and frame rate, but once inside the box, they do what they like. So, you may think you are viewing 24 fps, but in many cases it is being bumped to 60Hz. You will need to make sure you display is truly 24 fps capable.

Also, we have encountered 1080p devices that when set to auto detect, set the resolution to 1080i, even though they are natively 1080p. Not all EDID info is 100% correct. I suggest you experiment and choose the setting that gives YOU the image you like the best. At the end of the day, it's really about the picture and image quality that pleases you.

We believe that our approach is sensible and works for 99% of the UMC-1 user base. I'm sure that someone will want a different set up than this, but we are working on more esoteric solutions too! ;D

[iknowdoyou]

Thanks, Dan.

I apologize if this has been covered before, but is there a reason why the UMC-1 can't have per-input resolution settings? Is this a hardware limitation, or just a ball of wax that Emotiva isn't ready to dive into, yet, on the software side?

Thanks!

Ryan

[darien87]

Feb 8, 2010 12:24:32 GMT -5 iknowdoyou said:

Thanks, Dan.

I apologize if this has been covered before, but is there a reason why the UMC-1 can't have per-input resolution settings? Is this a hardware limitation, or just a ball of wax that Emotiva isn't ready to dive into, yet, on the software side?

Thanks!

Ryan

I believe it is indeed a hardware limitation.

[Dan Laufman]

Hi,
The XMC-1 will allow video presets by input. It will also have a somewhat "deeper" palate of control options.

Honestly though, I've watched a LOT of video on this baby and I'm telling you, let it do the work for you. It's REALLY good.

Every time I think I've out guessed it, I just go back to letting the Vixen software do its thing.
Big Dan

[DYohn]

Feb 8, 2010 12:53:07 GMT -5 Dan Laufman said:

Every time I think I've out guessed it, I just go back to letting the Vixen software do its thing.
Big Dan

That's been my conclusion as well. I keep trying the AUTO and the BYPASS settings but I keep migrating back to 1080p/60 with deep color ON and all the other settings defaulted to 50 and it just looks outstanding.

[jmilton]

Agreed. Tried it different ways, but am staying put with 1080p/60. Who wouldn't want a vixen handling everything?




(Interesting. When you Google the word "vixen", a lot of girls come up with that name. Go figure.)

[DYohn]

Feb 8, 2010 13:17:11 GMT -5 jmilton said:

Who wouldn't want a vixen handling everything?

Over the years that attitude has cost me a LOT of money... ;D

[dropzone7]

Do any of you guys have external scalers or processors to compare to the processing done in the UMC-1?

[venaka]

Alright,
GOt home and checked this ps3 thing..
when directv h21 box goes to umc-1 on pass through my display (lg 47lg70) will show 1080i. When I put auto or of course 1080/60 my display will show 1080/60p, which by the way looks real nice on showtime HD(Mission Impossible)....To me it looks alot better than 1080i.

On ps3,
I did what SS said, changes my ps3 to 1080/24 on on, put in Live Free or Die Hard and on auto I got 1080/60 and pass through I got 1080/24..
I dont know if it was a placebo effect, but I doubt it, but the colors, especially black, looked rich, colors were all brought to life. Black was actually black and not a smear.
SO im am leaving my umc to 1080/60 all the time and you guys can worry argue about your fps, cause my eyes cant see any negatives actually positives by leaving it to 1080/60 at all times.

thanks

[markd]

Hi Dan-

I understand the tradeoffs you are making. And I'm sure I could show you the exact artifacts that are resolved by handling 24p correctly (which would ruin your otherwise happy video viewing ;-). One fairly simple way to address this in the UMC would be to have discrete IR commands to change resolutions. Then a macro could be built that would allow the correct setting to be applied when desired.

Any chance of something like that?

thanks

markd

[ICBM99]

Glad it's working for you.

I think one of the biggest differences is when a movie is panning across the horizon, with a normal 3:2 conversion of 24 fps to 30, you get "judder". Which makes the picture seem a bit shaky. More info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine

Quote from Wiki

The “2:3 pulldown” telecine process creates a slight error in the video signal compared to the original film frames that can be seen in the above image. This is one reason why films viewed on typical NTSC home equipment may not appear as smooth as when viewed in a cinema. The phenomenon is particularly apparent during slow, steady camera movements which appear slightly jerky when telecined. This process is commonly referred to as telecine judder. Reversing the 2-3 pulldown telecine is discussed below.

You've probably never noticed it before, or never really thought about it, but if you start looking for it, its always there, unless you can properly display a 24 fps source.

[pynchon]

As someone who is waiting for the umc-1 -
Let's say for cable you have it set to 1080p60hz

Then you want to watch blu-ray -
How difficult is it to switch the umc-1 from 1080/60 to pass through?
I thought maybe just hitting a button on the remote...

[venaka]

Feb 8, 2010 16:41:08 GMT -5 pynchon said:

As someone who is waiting for the umc-1 -
Let's say for cable you have it set to 1080p60hz

Then you want to watch blu-ray -
How difficult is it to switch the umc-1 from 1080/60 to pass through?
I thought maybe just hitting a button on the remote...

Its actually that easy, but many people here love to to complain..even when they dont have a umc

and again I, as many, have it set to 1080/60 all the time and I have had no negative views..im waiting to see a movie panning the horizon..
still waiting

[pynchon]

Thanks venaka - if it's that easy then I don't see much of a problem.
All the fuss had me scared that it took like 30 min. to do the switch

People like me who want the 1080p24 in bluray are likely 'purists' who wouldn't want any scaling done anyway to the original source - and if I can switch it via a remote then it's not an issue to me.

[markd]

Feb 8, 2010 16:44:28 GMT -5 venaka said:

Its actually that easy, but many people here love to to complain..even when they dont have a umc

and again I, as many, have it set to 1080/60 all the time and I have had no negative views..im waiting to see a movie panning the horizon..
still waiting

I don't see single buttons- wouldn't you need to walk the menus to change the setting?

Also, you probably wouldn't notice it with a horizon pan- try a horizontal pan of a forest, something with lots of strong verticals. Buildings in the city work pretty well too.

No, I don't have a UMC yet. I don't even have a TV that can handle 24Hz yet. But my next TV will for sure, and I really don't want to be shopping for another pre/pro. For all other sources, I'd be quite happy to leave it set to 1080p60. (Once I get that new TV- for now it'll be 720p60)

Thank you for running the experiments.

[hemster]

Well, FWIW I'l post my observations. Played around a bit and found the following gives the best results to my eyes.

Panasonic AE3000 projector set to 1080p/24
UMC set to BYPASS, deep color ON and all other settings at 50
OPPO BD player set to output 1080p/24

The only source I used is was Bluray discs. Need to play with some DVDs to see how that goes.

As always, YMMV.

[mlkmgr]

so how does the scaling compare to Reon HQV? i am curious as i have been holding on to my XA-2 HD-DVD player forever for standard dvds. if the scaling is on par with Reon, then the XA-2 could hit the chopping block.

[DYohn]

Feb 8, 2010 16:41:08 GMT -5 pynchon said:

As someone who is waiting for the umc-1 -
Let's say for cable you have it set to 1080p60hz

Then you want to watch blu-ray -
How difficult is it to switch the umc-1 from 1080/60 to pass through?
I thought maybe just hitting a button on the remote...

There is a button on the remote called "Video" that will switch resolution settings for you on the fly.

[thisonekidmongo]

Feb 8, 2010 17:01:13 GMT -5 markd said:

Feb 8, 2010 16:44:28 GMT -5 venaka said:

Its actually that easy, but many people here love to to complain..even when they dont have a umc

and again I, as many, have it set to 1080/60 all the time and I have had no negative views..im waiting to see a movie panning the horizon..
still waiting

I don't see single buttons- wouldn't you need to walk the menus to change the setting?

Also, you probably wouldn't notice it with a horizon pan- try a horizontal pan of a forest, something with lots of strong verticals. Buildings in the city work pretty well too.

No, I don't have a UMC yet. I don't even have a TV that can handle 24Hz yet. But my next TV will for sure, and I really don't want to be shopping for another pre/pro. For all other sources, I'd be quite happy to leave it set to 1080p60. (Once I get that new TV- for now it'll be 720p60)

Thank you for running the experiments.

You can press the "Video" button on the UMC remote, which cycles through each resolution one by one. Passthrough happens to be right after 1080p/60hz, so technically, one button press can get you to Passthrough, provided you're going there from 1080p/60hz.

Of course, going back from Passthrough to 1080p/60 is a different matter...