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Post by jerrym303 on Feb 24, 2010 13:15:54 GMT -5
Sending a 480i signal into the processor does not mean it will lock to 480p. It will only do this if there is an authentication failure due to what is connected to the UMC. Just wanted to clarify this.  Lonnie, How come people are running into the EDID authentication failure only with 480i signals and not higher resolutions when connected to the same devices? If it is simply an issue of the UMC and the connected device not communicating properly it seems illogical that it would only occur with 480i sources. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around how this whole thing works ;D I'm not Lonnie, but my understanding is that it is only an issue for 480i because higher resolutions are, in fact, just passed through. The UMC automatically upgrades any 480i signal to 480p when in pass-through. When a higher-resolution signal is then received, the UMC will stay at 480p if the EDID info is not linking well between your display and the UMC. It seems that several folks have displays that don't communicate well with the UMC. If the UMC could just pass-through 480i like it does higher resolutions, there would not be an issue. |
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Post by nickwin on Feb 24, 2010 13:19:40 GMT -5
Thanks nickwin. I forgot about the 1080p24, but excluding that, and assuming you were happy with the video processing of the UMC-1, would there be any other reason not to just use the 1080p60 setting? None that I can think of. I think there is a small percentage of people who really want pass through to work properly for various reasons, but for the majority I think this would be a decent solution (as long as we could get 1080p24 to pass through). I wonder if this change could be implemented via FW? |
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Post by robfive on Feb 24, 2010 13:25:01 GMT -5
Is there any way a FW update could make it so the UMC DEFAULTS to something other than 480p (preferably pass through)? It's going to be a MAJOR hassle for people if they they have to manually switch there resolution back to pass through every time they encounter a 480i source. It would also be nice if we could do away with the "unsupported format" message. That's going to get old real fast. The problem with having pass through as the defualt is the you are already in pass through. If pass through authentication sees a failure and it defaults to pass through, then you would have an endless loop of authentication failures and no video. Also, we put the banner in there so that you would know what the issue was. Without this banner, then you would have no idea as to what is going on and I think you can imagine the frustration level at that point. I would love to be able to change the default resolution. On my system I frequently lose sink (DVI w/ HDCP monitor and projector both) when I just have a PS3 connected to the UMC-1 which is set on 720p 60Hz output (no passthrough). I realize if I had a brand new monitor and a brand new projector it probably wouldn't do this but I don't plan on replacing them anytime soon. I would just like the ability to change the default resolution so that when the HDMI sink is lost (which it is guaranteed to do in my current set up) I don't have to change the resolution back from 480p. The only resolutions I use are 1080p into the UMC-1 and 720p out to my monitor or projector. I don't use any 480i signals, I don't use passthrough, and I don't try to send resolutions that my display devices cannot handle. I would just like to be able to lock in one output resolution and not have to worry about it. Other than this feature I am enjoying my UMC-1 very much. It is a very cool device. |
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Post by briank on Feb 24, 2010 13:28:04 GMT -5
Great, and thanks, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. I really like the UMC-1's audio and video performance, but finally decided today to wait on the XMC-1 due to the additional connectivity and features, especially the dual hdmi output. I want to use the XMC for my lcd tv for "everyday use" and then also for a front projector/drop down screen during "movie time" and be able to switch the output between the two. Does anyone see any problems with the XMC-1 being able to accomplish this? I know the outputs cannot be used at the same time, but that's no problem, as I just want to be able to select one or the other to use either the lcd display or the front projector. Hope this makes sense.
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Post by brettjb on Feb 24, 2010 13:29:04 GMT -5
Sending a 480i signal into the processor does not mean it will lock to 480p. It will only do this if there is an authentication failure due to what is connected to the UMC. Just wanted to clarify this. Hi Lonnie, I get what you're saying, but as I have been able to reproduce this issue on my system, I'm still uncertain things are operating as designed (or maybe they are, and I don't really get it-- wouldn't be the first time, according to my wife!  ) If I have the UMC in passthrough mode, and I'm viewing a 1080p signal, it passes that through to my projector without incident. Switching to a 480i signal gives me the unsupported resolution banner and changes to 480p - no problem, working as designed. Going back to the same 1080p signal I started on should return me to full 1080p lovin', but instead I'm stuck in 480p hell until I go into the resolution setting and manually change pack to passthrough. Surely if it's an authentication failure, I'd fail immediately, and passthough would always result in 480p for me regardless of source signal resolution, right? Why does it work as expected before going into 480p "limp home" mode, but not after? Edit to clarify: for the curious, the connections are HDMI, an the projector is an InFocus IN76 - 720p projector, but supports 1080p (which is why my HTPC keeps wanting to auto switch the resolution to 1080p on me!) |
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Post by nickwin on Feb 24, 2010 13:31:14 GMT -5
The problem with having pass through as the defualt is the you are already in pass through. If pass through authentication sees a failure and it defaults to pass through, then you would have an endless loop of authentication failures and no video. Also, we put the banner in there so that you would know what the issue was. Without this banner, then you would have no idea as to what is going on and I think you can imagine the frustration level at that point. I would love to be able to change the default resolution. On my system I frequently lose sink (DVI w/ HDCP monitor and projector both) when all I have the UMC-1 connected to is a PS3 outputting 1080p. I realize if I had a brand new monitor and a brand new projector it probably wouldn't do this but I don't plan on replacing them anytime soon. I would just like the ability to change the default resolution so that when the HDMI sink is lost (which it is guaranteed to do in my current set up) I don't have to change the resolution back from 480p. The only resolutions I use are 1080p into the UMC-1 and 720p out to my monitor or projector. I don't use any 480i signals and I don't try to send resolutions that my display devices cannot handle. I would just like to be able to lock in one output resolution and not have to worry about it. Other than this feature I am enjoying my UMC-1 very much. It is a very cool device. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you should have any problem then. AFAIK its only an issue if your UMC is set to Pass. If you have it set to 1080p or 720p than it should stay locked onto that resolution. Brettjb, I'm still not totally clear on this issue either. It seems odd to me that the UMC was designed to have this much trouble every time a 480i source is detected. Granted, no one really likes watching 480i sources, but the truth is its still a prevalent format. |
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Post by loopinfool on Feb 24, 2010 13:38:56 GMT -5
Thanks nickwin. I forgot about the 1080p24, but excluding that, and assuming you were happy with the video processing of the UMC-1, would there be any other reason not to just use the 1080p60 setting? For most people with 1080p displays, that would probably be the best all-around choice. It won't work well for me. My Pioneer plasma does a terrific job of detecting 24p content and displaying it without "judder" (at 72Hz). The problem is, it can't do it at all with a 1080p60 signal. 1080i would work, but you lose vertical resolution on 720p signals when scaling them to 1080i. It cascades from there, so I need pass-through so my display can see the original signal and do the right thing with it. The lack of 480i on HDMI will hopefully not be a problem. If the de-interlacer in the UMC-1 is good, we'll get a very good 480p signal that still has 3:2 pulldown on film content. My display should detect that and display it with 3:3 pulldown. Hopefully I wouldn't get any error messages. Reports indicate that Pioneer really got their HDMI right in the recent Kuro displays. - LoopinFool |
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Post by nickwin on Feb 24, 2010 13:44:39 GMT -5
Thanks nickwin. I forgot about the 1080p24, but excluding that, and assuming you were happy with the video processing of the UMC-1, would there be any other reason not to just use the 1080p60 setting? For most people with 1080p displays, that would probably be the best all-around choice. It won't work well for me. My Pioneer plasma does a terrific job of detecting 24p content and displaying it without "judder" (at 72Hz). The problem is, it can't do it at all with a 1080p60 signal. 1080i would work, but you lose vertical resolution on 720p signals when scaling them to 1080i. It cascades from there, so I need pass-through so my display can see the original signal and do the right thing with it. The lack of 480i on HDMI will hopefully not be a problem. If the de-interlacer in the UMC-1 is good, we'll get a very good 480p signal that still has 3:2 pulldown on film content. My display should detect that and display it with 3:3 pulldown. Hopefully I wouldn't get any error messages. Reports indicate that Pioneer really got their HDMI right in the recent Kuro displays. - LoopinFool LoopinFool, your Kuro is native 1080p right? If the UMC was able to pass 24fps, even when set to 1080p60 resolution, would that take care of the problem for you? That way everything would be scaled to 1080p60 but when a 24fps signal is detected it would automatically output at 1080p24. (this is how its stated to work in the manual) |
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Post by loopinfool on Feb 24, 2010 14:08:59 GMT -5
LoopinFool, your Kuro is native 1080p right? If the UMC was able to pass 24fps, even when set to 1080p60 resolution, would that take care of the problem for you? That way everything would be scaled to 1080p60 but when a 24fps signal is detected it would automatically output at 1080p24. (this is how its stated to work in the manual) That would only work for Blu-Ray, or DVD players with 24p output. I don't own either (yet - waiting until I get an HDMI receiver or pre/pro!). It would not work for DVDs from a regular player or TV/Cable programming. Most television shows are shot at 24p and some look amazing (TNT dramas are the best example). Movies aired on TV are of course 24p. All that stuff gets to us at 480i, 720p, or 1080i. If I let the UMC-1 up-convert to 1080p60 I'll get judder on what I watch most. I also agree that there should be a way to get the UMC-1 to pass 24p through when set to 1080p60 output (or Auto) for everything else. Personally, I think it should always pass it through if the display says (EDID) it supports it. There should also be a way to force that since many displays have bad EDID data. Some people may not want it to pass 24p signals through. Displays will never report 24p as the preferred resolution (for Auto mode) since it can't properly handle 720p or 1080i content. Lonnie's job is not easy.  - LoopinFool |
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Post by DYohn on Feb 24, 2010 14:16:56 GMT -5
Lonnie will I hope correct me if I am wrong, but it seems from what you folks are posting that once the UMC-1 detects an authentication failure and defaults to 480p output, it locks into failure mode. This may indeed be required by the HDCP or AACS specifications and require user intervention, or it could simply be the way the software is written... I will see if I can find any requirement to lock onto failure once it is detected.
Realize that with HDMI, "pass through" is not literally bypassing the processor. It is not a relay that routes the signals "through" without looking at them like is possible with analog signals. All the compliance detection that is normally required is still required when you set the processor to "pass thorough." It is a new world...
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Post by loopinfool on Feb 24, 2010 14:24:23 GMT -5
Realize that with HDMI, "pass through" is not literally bypassing the processor. It is not a relay that routes the signals "through" without looking at them like is possible with analog signals. All the compliance detection that is normally required is still required when you set the processor to "pass thorough." It is a new world... Good point. Most people don't understand that. One positive is that, unlike the analog world, I don't believe it's possible to damage a device by sending it an unsupported signal. The only negative is not being able to see/hear anything! - LoopinFool |
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Post by DYohn on Feb 24, 2010 14:27:31 GMT -5
Yes you are correct. If the sink device does not show a supported resolution in pass through mode, then the authentication will fail and the processor will revert to 480p as a safety protocol which would not be a bug in the system but simply a limitation of the sink device. Well, your challenge is that the UMC-1 is the "hub" of the system and will inevitably need to smoothly integrate with less-than-perfect devices. In a perfect world I might agree with your statement. However, why is it Emotiva's (or any other equipment manufacturer's) responsibility to create a device that will work with "less than perfect" devices from other companies? If the product is compliant with the standards, then isn't that where each manufacturer's responsibilities really stop? Going beyond that is often what separates great companies from good ones, and I think Emotiva is going way beyond that right now in trying to figure out all the "issues" being reported by the user base and other people who have fears about becoming part of the user base. But they really have no responsibility to make their products work with older gear or gear that does not comply with the standards as long as they are certain theirs do comply. Emotiva is a business after all, not a non-profit customer support organization. |
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Post by nickwin on Feb 24, 2010 14:28:52 GMT -5
LoopinFool, your Kuro is native 1080p right? If the UMC was able to pass 24fps, even when set to 1080p60 resolution, would that take care of the problem for you? That way everything would be scaled to 1080p60 but when a 24fps signal is detected it would automatically output at 1080p24. (this is how its stated to work in the manual) That would only work for Blu-Ray, or DVD players with 24p output. I don't own either (yet - waiting until I get an HDMI receiver or pre/pro!). It would not work for DVDs from a regular player or TV/Cable programming. Most television shows are shot at 24p and some look amazing (TNT dramas are the best example). Movies aired on TV are of course 24p. All that stuff gets to us at 480i, 720p, or 1080i. If I let the UMC-1 up-convert to 1080p60 I'll get judder on what I watch most. I also agree that there should be a way to get the UMC-1 to pass 24p through when set to 1080p60 output (or Auto) for everything else. Personally, I think it should always pass it through if the display says (EDID) it supports it. There should also be a way to force that since many displays have bad EDID data. Some people may not want it to pass 24p signals through. Displays will never report 24p as the preferred resolution (for Auto mode) since it can't properly handle 720p or 1080i content. Lonnie's job is not easy. - LoopinFool OK, now I see what your saying. I wasn't even aware that movies and some tv shows are aired at 24fps. I knew they were filmed at 24fps, but I kind of just assumed they were converted to 60fps at some point before they come out of your STB, since most displays today can't display 24fps. That does indeed complicate things. P.S. I always thought that DVD players automatically converted the 24fps on the disc to 30fps at output, am I wrong? (this is getting over my head, so I wouldn't be surprised if I was) |
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Post by nickwin on Feb 24, 2010 14:40:15 GMT -5
. But they really have no responsibility to make their products work with older gear or gear that does not comply with the standards as long as they are certain theirs do comply. Emotiva is a business after all, not a non-profit customer support organization. Responsibility no, but like you said they are a business. If they want to be as successful of business as they can, they need to make it compatible with as many devices as possible. Only targeting a market segment that has 100% brand spanking new components is not an effective strategy, since the bottom line is those people make up only a small percentage of the total potential buyers. If you take out all of the potential buyers that have a 2 or 3 year old component in their system, your not going to have many people left. |
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Post by DYohn on Feb 24, 2010 14:46:58 GMT -5
. But they really have no responsibility to make their products work with older gear or gear that does not comply with the standards as long as they are certain theirs do comply. Emotiva is a business after all, not a non-profit customer support organization. Responsibility no, but like you said they are a business. If they want to be as successful of business as they can, they need to make it compatible with as many devices as possible. Only targeting a market segment that has 100% brand spanking new components is not an effective strategy, since the bottom line is those people make only a small percentage of the potential buyers. If you take out all of the people that have a one or two year old component in their system, your not going to have many people left. Agreed. Of course there is the added dimension of the new HDCP/AACS and HDMI specifications that Emotiva and everyone else can do nothing about that will make a vast array of older components obsolete. One thing to remember is this obsolescence was planned by forces way beyond Emotiva, and if they want to sell any gear at all that is compliant with the standards they have to play by those rules. In my day job I am responsible for IP issues for my company and I deal with things like copyright, patents and standards compliance on a daily basis. I am reminded by a statement made by a copyright attorney I work with: What copyright law IS and what some people WANT it to be are two different things. The same is true in the brave new world of digital video. |
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Post by akbungle on Feb 24, 2010 14:48:22 GMT -5
Okay I don't know why this is bugging me so bad but come on people it's : sync not sink  Weird for me because I don't believe in the grammar police. Yes Lonnie I'm looking at you too. |
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Post by lonnie on Feb 24, 2010 14:50:59 GMT -5
Sending a 480i signal into the processor does not mean it will lock to 480p. It will only do this if there is an authentication failure due to what is connected to the UMC. Just wanted to clarify this. Lonnie, How come people are running into the EDID authentication failure only with 480i signals and not higher resolutions when connected to the same devices? If it is simply an issue of the UMC and the connected device not communicating properly it seems illogical that it would only occur with 480i sources. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around how this whole thing works ;D I think the their is a lot of confusion about EDID and that is where a lot of this is founded. But in my experience there is no such thing as "Bad EDID". From what I have seen, EDID tells the real story about a devices capabilities. There is a lot of equipment out that that is touted as being xxx compliant, but what happens internally is a whole different matter. Yes it may accept certain formats or resolution levels, but internally it may only be designed to support something different. So even though it can accept a certain input, it will do what it needs to do to operate. Now the EDID info will show this and report what the real operating systems capabilites are and that is what the UMC looks at. Now the real issue here as I see it is that there was a lot of gear over the last few years that didn't have EDID (basically gear built prior to the EDID mandate for HDMI). Usually this gear will have HDMI jacks, but internally it may only be DVI or some variant there of. In this case there is no reporting to the UMC and given the latest mandates we have to act upon this in certain ways. Now there is some gray area in this and we are looking closely at it to see what can be done to keep the system compliant but ease the burden on the end user. Now this is just my opinion here but I beleive most of the new mandates are driven by the movie industry to tighten the regulations and limit what can be passed in an attemp to reduce piroting. But the hard core guys will find a way around this very quickly and in the end will only cause problems for the end user. But like I said, this is just my opinion here. Oh, BTW. Authentication failures can happen at any resolution depending on EDID. |
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Post by bootman on Feb 24, 2010 14:55:22 GMT -5
OK, now I see what your saying. I wasn't even aware that movies and some tv shows are aired at 24fps. I knew they were filmed at 24fps, but I kind of just assumed they were converted to 60fps at some point before they come out of your STB, since most displays today can't display 24fps. That does indeed complicate things. P.S. I always thought that DVD players automatically converted the 24fps on the disc to 30fps at output, am I wrong? (this is getting over my head, so I wouldn't be surprised if I was) No 24fps is broadcast over NSTC. This is a 30fps system. PAL is transmitted at 25fps. You are correct about DVDs and Blurays. If they are film, they are mastered at 24fps and internally converted at the player at 60fps before getting outputed to the display. (this is for a 480p or higher signal. If you are viewing a 480i output (example: s-video) then you have a 30fps signal. |
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Post by brettjb on Feb 24, 2010 15:17:28 GMT -5
I think the their is a lot of confusion about EDID and that is where a lot of this is founded. But in my experience there is no such thing as "Bad EDID". From what I have seen, EDID tells the real story about a devices capabilities. There is a lot of equipment out that that is touted as being xxx compliant, but what happens internally is a whole different matter. Yes it may accept certain formats or resolution levels, but internally it may only be designed to support something different. So even though it can accept a certain input, it will do what it needs to do to operate. Now the EDID info will show this and report what the real operating systems capabilites are and that is what the UMC looks at. Now the real issue here as I see it is that there was a lot of gear over the last few years that didn't have EDID (basically gear built prior to the EDID mandate for HDMI). Usually this gear will have HDMI jacks, but internally it may only be DVI or some variant there of. In this case there is no reporting to the UMC and given the latest mandates we have to act upon this in certain ways. Now there is some gray area in this and we are looking closely at it to see what can be done to keep the system compliant but ease the burden on the end user. This is why I included my projector make/model in my previous post, because I'm beginning to wonder if it's not partly to blame, here. I've not heard of any EDID issues with it, and I know my HTPC display resolution defaults to 1920x1080 when left on the auto resolution setting... Hmm, makes me want to see if there's any sort of "EDID scanner" type software out there that I can run and see exactly what my projector is telling the UMC... Now this is just my opinion here but I beleive most of the new mandates are driven by the movie industry to tighten the regulations and limit what can be passed in an attemp to reduce piroting. But the hard core guys will find a way around this very quickly and in the end will only cause problems for the end user. But like I said, this is just my opinion here. Amen, brother! HDCP is not an effective deterrent for the determined criminal, and only hurts the honest consumer (and the suppliers of consumer electronics who have to deal with the inevitable fallout!) --Brett |
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Post by loopinfool on Feb 24, 2010 15:38:05 GMT -5
OK, now I see what your saying. I wasn't even aware that movies and some tv shows are aired at 24fps. I knew they were filmed at 24fps, but I kind of just assumed they were converted to 60fps at some point before they come out of your STB, since most displays today can't display 24fps. That does indeed complicate things. P.S. I always thought that DVD players automatically converted the 24fps on the disc to 30fps at output, am I wrong? (this is getting over my head, so I wouldn't be surprised if I was) You are mainly correct. They are not aired at 24fps. They are carefully converted to 60fps (fields or frames) using 3:2 pulldown (search for it). Devices (like many displays, DVD/Blu-Ray players, receivers, and pre/pros) can detect the 3:2 pulldown patterns (sometimes called cadences) and accurately re-create the original progressive frames of the movie/show. Further, my display notices that the pattern comes from a 24fps source and does "the right thing" and it's very nice to watch. There's a lot of confusion out there. If anyone wants to learn more, a search for 3:2 pulldown will yield lots of good, easy to understand info. - LoopinFool |
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