lonnie
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Post by lonnie on Feb 23, 2010 22:31:31 GMT -5
If this issue where the UMC while in passthrough mode will switch to 480P when a 480P image comes on and then stay there even when a 1080P picture turns on - that is a HUGE problem. I believe that I have seen this problem but did not retest for it tonight. Can someone verify this issue - please. I will run it through the lab tomorrow on the Quantum Data and see. |
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Post by loopinfool on Feb 23, 2010 22:32:51 GMT -5
The UMC-1 supports 480i, I never said it didn't... it just does not output at that format. Sorry, knee-jerk response to your "There really is no current source for 480i material" statement. Almost all current ATSC sub-channels are also 480i (thank goodness). - LoopinFool |
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Post by jerrym303 on Feb 23, 2010 22:45:38 GMT -5
I think that this EDID check is what may not have been working well for the person who noted the degradation of 1080P signal. The UMC may have been downscaling to what it read even though the signal was 1080p and the UMC was set to 1080p (fixed) output. If "locked" to 1080p or 720p output really meant locked, I could live with that even if the UMC processing is slightly worse in the UMC than what I have downstream. I could just switch to pass-through for movies (a minority of our use). As far as the switch to 480p and staying there when starting out in pass-through, that sure seems like a bug and not a feature to me. If this could be fixed in one of these two ways below, that would be even a better solution for me than noted in the paragraph above: 1. just pass-through all signals (adding OSD only) for 480i through 1080p 2. Go ahead and upscale 480i, but then switch back automatically to pass-through as soon as the signal is 480p or above (second best as this could cause latency). I'm just trying to find one set it and leave it mode that works for everyday use. If movies require some effort, that is OK. Within the EDID info is all the supported resolutions of the monitor with a flag on the preferred resolution. So one possability could be that the input to a monitor may support 1080p but the preferred resolution is 720p ( I have a Panasonic Plasma in the lab that is like this becuase the panel itself is only 720p but will accept 1080p on the input). In this case the 1080p input would be down scaled to 720p which might or might not cause some video issues. But this would only happen if the UMC was set to Auto. If the EDID reported the monitor supported 1080p and the output resolution was set to 1080p, then it would hold it at that resolution.  Here is the thread where a poster was noting the supposed scaling issues in auto and fixed 1080p output. Responses 17 through 29: emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=preamps&action=display&thread=9542&page=1 |
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lonnie
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Post by lonnie on Feb 23, 2010 23:12:08 GMT -5
In Auto mode it will look at the EDID from the monitor/projector and set itself to whatever the monitor tells it is the prefered resolution. If the monitor/projector is DVI and doesn't have EDID reporting, then the UMC will see HPD go high with no EDID and default to 480p so that you will always get video. Your monitor/projector may be capable of running at higher resolutions, but without EDID, there is no way for hte UMC to know what it can do. So in this case, you would need to set an output resolution to something compatible with your monitor. Hopefully this helps to clear things up. Sounds good, but the reports I saw here said the problem was with pass-through mode. Which is kind of worse, since it wouldn't go back to 720p or 1080i/p when it next saw such a source. - LoopinFool Ok, I was just going over the video matrix and here is the condition where it would jump out of pass through mode and swtich to a fixed 480p. 1. If input format is not supported at output (this set by EDID of sink device). 2. If Input format is not supported at analog output (output resolution out of range or copy protection encoding present) 3. For HDMI connection, no EDID present due to older DVI system. 4. HDMI connection doesn't show output is supported based on EDID. So if any of these conditions are met, then Pass Through Authentication will fail and the system will automatically move out of Pass Through and go to a default setting of 480p so that you retain video under all conditions. Hope this helps to answer your quesitons. |
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Post by jerrym303 on Feb 23, 2010 23:56:46 GMT -5
This list is actually helpful. Now I need to figure out if my PJ is passing EDID info correctly. Not sure if my Yamaha can tell me as I'm not sure it has an auto setting - I use pure pass-through normally.
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Post by loopinfool on Feb 23, 2010 23:58:51 GMT -5
Hope this helps to answer your quesitons. Well, they're not my questions. I'm just trying to help diagnose the issues to make a better product for current customers, and hopefully a better one by the time I can order one! Your list seems to go along with the "Unsupported format" error people saw. However, I believe they were using modern displays that should handle all relevant formats. They reported 720p and 1080i passing through just fine before an input switch to 480i triggered the issue. Perhaps the EDID data from their displays don't include 480p as a supported format? Since you're going to default to that in the error case anyway, you could always assume it's a valid output format for any HDMI/DVI device and not include its EDID state in the error matrix -- if that turns out to be what's happening. - LoopinFool Edit - It looks like at least users "solomente" and "ripcordaff" have this problem. I don't know what displays they have or how they're connected, but that info may help figure this out. |
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lonnie
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Post by lonnie on Feb 24, 2010 6:12:29 GMT -5
Hope this helps to answer your quesitons. Well, they're not my questions. I'm just trying to help diagnose the issues to make a better product for current customers, and hopefully a better one by the time I can order one! Your list seems to go along with the "Unsupported format" error people saw. However, I believe they were using modern displays that should handle all relevant formats. They reported 720p and 1080i passing through just fine before an input switch to 480i triggered the issue. Perhaps the EDID data from their displays don't include 480p as a supported format? Since you're going to default to that in the error case anyway, you could always assume it's a valid output format for any HDMI/DVI device and not include its EDID state in the error matrix -- if that turns out to be what's happening. - LoopinFool Edit - It looks like at least users "solomente" and "ripcordaff" have this problem. I don't know what displays they have or how they're connected, but that info may help figure this out. Yes you are correct. If the sink device does not show a supported resolution in pass through mode, then the authenticaiton will fail and the processor will revert to 480p as a safety protocol which would not be a bug in the system but simply a limitation of the sink device. |
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ICBM99
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Post by ICBM99 on Feb 24, 2010 10:18:22 GMT -5
Jerry,
Regarding the 1080p issue I've been having, I'm still not sure if it is a UMC problem. All my other sources look excellent. It appears to be either HDMI related, or player related. I'm planning on changing some things out and doing more testing. My wifes aunt has been in town since last week, so I haven't had the chance to play with it. She's headed back this weekend, so hopefully next week I'll dig a bit more into it.
Pass through looks gorgeous, and even when I set the UMC to 720 the jaggies are gone. My TV is a 1080p LED DLP from a couple years ago. Like I said, I'm still playing with my setup, because there haven't been any other reports of this that I've seen.
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Post by jerrym303 on Feb 24, 2010 10:44:18 GMT -5
Jerry, Regarding the 1080p issue I've been having, I'm still not sure if it is a UMC problem. All my other sources look excellent. It appears to be either HDMI related, or player related. I'm planning on changing some things out and doing more testing. My wifes aunt has been in town since last week, so I haven't had the chance to play with it. She's headed back this weekend, so hopefully next week I'll dig a bit more into it. Pass through looks gorgeous, and even when I set the UMC to 720 the jaggies are gone. My TV is a 1080p LED DLP from a couple years ago. Like I said, I'm still playing with my setup, because there haven't been any other reports of this that I've seen. Thanks! That is good to hear. I suspect that the UMC processing will be fine for me for everyday use as long as it can be just set and left there. It appears that the 480p lock thing in pass-through is hit and miss, so it will just have to be tested with each type of display. I was unable to test my display for EDID content as I don't have any source/AVR that reports back what the display wants. I think my Edge did, but I sold that a while back. Some may not have enjoyed this thread, but it was useful for me. My two main concerns have been addressed and the other minor ones mostly appear on Dan's latest list. |
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Post by nickwin on Feb 24, 2010 11:28:32 GMT -5
Well, they're not my questions. I'm just trying to help diagnose the issues to make a better product for current customers, and hopefully a better one by the time I can order one! Your list seems to go along with the "Unsupported format" error people saw. However, I believe they were using modern displays that should handle all relevant formats. They reported 720p and 1080i passing through just fine before an input switch to 480i triggered the issue. Perhaps the EDID data from their displays don't include 480p as a supported format? Since you're going to default to that in the error case anyway, you could always assume it's a valid output format for any HDMI/DVI device and not include its EDID state in the error matrix -- if that turns out to be what's happening. - LoopinFool Edit - It looks like at least users "solomente" and "ripcordaff" have this problem. I don't know what displays they have or how they're connected, but that info may help figure this out. Yes you are correct. If the sink device does not show a supported resolution in pass through mode, then the authenticaiton will fail and the processor will revert to 480p as a safety protocol which would not be a bug in the system but simply a limitation of the sink device. Is there any way a FW update could make it so the UMC DEFAULTS to something other than 480p (preferably pass through)? It's going to be a MAJOR hassle for people if they they have to manually switch there resolution back to pass through every time they encounter a 480i source. It would also be nice if we could do away with the "unsupported format" message. That's going to get old real fast. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 24, 2010 11:40:43 GMT -5
Yes you are correct. If the sink device does not show a supported resolution in pass through mode, then the authentication will fail and the processor will revert to 480p as a safety protocol which would not be a bug in the system but simply a limitation of the sink device. Is there any way a FW update could make it so the UMC DEFAULTS to something other than 480p (preferably pass through)? It's going to be a MAJOR hassle for people if they they have to manually switch there resolution back to pass through every time they encounter a 480i source. It would also be nice if we could do away with the "unsupported format" message. That's going to get old real fast. I suspect there will be *MANY* similar incompatibility issues with older gear as the latest HDMI/HDCP rules propagate throughout the industry. The UMC-1 is simply adhering to the latest rules. Expect this sort of thing to become the norm unless users have all fully compliant systems. I wonder how many of the reported "issues" with the UMC-1 are actually due to this sort of incompatibility? Based on the way my system is performing and seemingly immune to many of the things being reported (all my equipment is less than one year old) I suspect it is all too common... |
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Post by nickwin on Feb 24, 2010 11:54:38 GMT -5
Is there any way a FW update could make it so the UMC DEFAULTS to something other than 480p (preferably pass through)? It's going to be a MAJOR hassle for people if they they have to manually switch there resolution back to pass through every time they encounter a 480i source. It would also be nice if we could do away with the "unsupported format" message. That's going to get old real fast. I suspect there will be *MANY* similar incompatibility issues with older gear as the latest HDMI/HDCP rules propagate throughout the industry. The UMC-1 is simply adhering to the latest rules. Expect this sort of thing to become the norm unless users have all fully compliant systems. I wonder how many of the reported "issues" with the UMC-1 are actually due to this sort of incompatibility? Based on the way my system is performing and seemingly immune to many of the things being reported (all my equipment is less than one year old) I suspect it is all too common... Is there really "rule" that states that when the UMC sees a 480i source it has to get LOCKED into 480p mode? I'm no expert in this regard, but it seems like they should be able to have it default to pass through, or even 1080p instead of 480p. Although I could be wrong... |
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Feb 24, 2010 11:59:17 GMT -5
... or an option to let the user decide on the default output if a "funny signal" is encountered?
A Kiss DVD player I had had a button on the bakc to "rest video to default" (which was probably 480i or p). Very handy.
Obviously this can not be added to the UMC-1 now, but a remote key combo could do this - so have the default output whatever the user sets the output to and then if the unit later gets plugged into e.g. a component set and there is no output it can just be reset to default/passthrough or whatever via the remote? Give everyone a sticker for the back of there remote and/or on the back or side of the unit? "To reset video press X+Y+Z, to do a master reset press "A+B+C" or whatever?
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lonnie
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Post by lonnie on Feb 24, 2010 12:53:42 GMT -5
Yes you are correct. If the sink device does not show a supported resolution in pass through mode, then the authenticaiton will fail and the processor will revert to 480p as a safety protocol which would not be a bug in the system but simply a limitation of the sink device. Is there any way a FW update could make it so the UMC DEFAULTS to something other than 480p (preferably pass through)? It's going to be a MAJOR hassle for people if they they have to manually switch there resolution back to pass through every time they encounter a 480i source. It would also be nice if we could do away with the "unsupported format" message. That's going to get old real fast. The problem with having pass through as the defualt is the you are already in pass through. If pass through authentication sees a failure and it defaults to pass through, then you would have an endless loop of authentication failures and no video. Also, we put the banner in there so that you would know what the issue was. Without this banner, then you would have no idea as to what is going on and I think you can imagine the frustration level at that point. |
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lonnie
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Post by lonnie on Feb 24, 2010 13:00:46 GMT -5
I suspect there will be *MANY* similar incompatibility issues with older gear as the latest HDMI/HDCP rules propagate throughout the industry. The UMC-1 is simply adhering to the latest rules. Expect this sort of thing to become the norm unless users have all fully compliant systems. I wonder how many of the reported "issues" with the UMC-1 are actually due to this sort of incompatibility? Based on the way my system is performing and seemingly immune to many of the things being reported (all my equipment is less than one year old) I suspect it is all too common... Is there really "rule" that states that when the UMC sees a 480i source it has to get LOCKED into 480p mode? I'm no expert in this regard, but it seems like they should be able to have it default to pass through, or even 1080p instead of 480p. Although I could be wrong... Sending a 480i signal into the processor does not mean it will lock to 480p. It will only do this if there is an authentication failure due to what is connected to the UMC. Just wanted to clarify this. |
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Post by briank on Feb 24, 2010 13:02:15 GMT -5
I may be missing something here, but wouldn't it be better and a lot simpler(especially for those having pass through issues) to just use the 1080p 60 hz setting and have the UMC-1 upconvert instead of trying to mess with the pass through at all??? The UMC-1 video processing is most excellent IMO.
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Post by nickwin on Feb 24, 2010 13:04:41 GMT -5
I may be missing something here, but wouldn't it be better and a lot simpler(especially for those having pass through issues) to just use the 1080p 60 hz setting and have the UMC-1 upconvert instead of trying to mess with the pass through at all??? The UMC-1 video processing is most excellent IMO. As far as I know the only way to get 1080p24 to output is to have the UMC set to pass through, that's one reason people want to use that over locking it to 1080p60. If we could get the UMC to output 1080p24 when a 24fps signal is present regardless of what the resolution is set at, 1080p60, 1080i, or anything else (like is states in the manual), than I think that would take care of the problem for most people. |
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Post by nickwin on Feb 24, 2010 13:09:26 GMT -5
Is there really "rule" that states that when the UMC sees a 480i source it has to get LOCKED into 480p mode? I'm no expert in this regard, but it seems like they should be able to have it default to pass through, or even 1080p instead of 480p. Although I could be wrong... Sending a 480i signal into the processor does not mean it will lock to 480p. It will only do this if there is an authentication failure due to what is connected to the UMC. Just wanted to clarify this. Lonnie, How come people are running into the EDID authentication failure only with 480i signals and not higher resolutions when connected to the same devices? If it is simply an issue of the UMC and the connected device not communicating properly it seems illogical that it would only occur with 480i sources. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around how this whole thing works ;D |
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Post by briank on Feb 24, 2010 13:11:24 GMT -5
Thanks nickwin. I forgot about the 1080p24, but excluding that, and assuming you were happy with the video processing of the UMC-1, would there be any other reason not to just use the 1080p60 setting?
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Post by loopinfool on Feb 24, 2010 13:14:33 GMT -5
Yes you are correct. If the sink device does not show a supported resolution in pass through mode, then the authenticaiton will fail and the processor will revert to 480p as a safety protocol which would not be a bug in the system but simply a limitation of the sink device. Well, your challenge is that the UMC-1 is the "hub" of the system and will inevitably need to smoothly integrate with less-than-perfect devices. My DirecTV DVR (HR20-700, but it's the same for all the HD models) has a display setup page. On that page, there are check boxes for all supported resolutions (480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i in this case). The user gets to define what their display really supports and turn off output resolutions that don't work well for them. They probably put that page in due to Component output, but I bet it's also saved their bacon when it comes to bad EDID info. Manual resolution control will then only switch between the selected output resolutions, and "Native" mode (essentially pass-through) will convert to the next-best supported format. They also use the EDID info to enable/disable 1080p24 output. It turned out that many, many sets that actually support 24p don't put it in their EDID so they had to add a secret "override" button press. They have a resolution button right on the front of the unit, though, so the user can fix any mistakes. That would probably be the biggest issue. You could use a "confirmation screen" at the requested resolution to confirm that it works (have the user hit OK if they can see it). Perhaps only do that if the user is trying to override missing EDID data or has a DVI display with no data. I know you have more formats to deal with (50Hz stuff). You could put in such an output resolution screen/control, initialize it to the EDID data when a display is first hooked up, then let the user "fix" it. Pass-through mode could then switch to the next better resolution if the input format isn't supported by the device. Something like this, or a complete input res->output res matrix like I originally suggested could really save you some headaches. The UMC-1 will be connected to Component displays, slightly older DVI displays, and plenty of HDMI displays with bad EDID data. You're liable to field support calls or get returns from those people if there's no way for the end-user (perhaps with help) to fix the problems. - LoopinFool |
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