Pauly
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Post by Pauly on Jul 9, 2011 18:33:18 GMT -5
Yep, I had to place the sub behind me at this house, and it was difficult to get it to blend with the fronts. Sometimes I run the crossover as low as 40hz with some material, and even then it's not perfect. I can't wait to get a bigger room, so I can place a couple subs up front.
I still can't understand why HSU recommends a nearfield placement beside the listening position. That has never worked in any setup I've had.
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Jul 9, 2011 18:54:08 GMT -5
Try this Pauly: Put your sub in your favorite chair, and go sit down in a corner! ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2011 19:36:01 GMT -5
Jamrock, IMO you have it correct. That is what I've been preaching for years including here.
The sub should normally be crossed over between 70-80Hz for the mains depending on the speakers and the individuals ability to localize the sub. 80Hz and below is the generally accepted as the point at which folks cannot identify the location of the sub. Thus one sub can in some cases do the job of the tower speakers while being able to be moved around the room for the best performance. As we know more than one sub can smooth out the bass performance throughout the room.
Matching a very high quality sub with a very high quality bookshelf speakers when properly blended can produce excellent sound. The blending process is critical and one of the reasons many folks get poor results. Lots of them make the mistake of setting the L&R as large (full range).
A must with this type of system is a high quality bookshelf speaker that is -3dB at 80Hz or lower (actual not specified). The sub I agree should be -3dB at or below 20Hz if possible for best performance with movies and some music. Specifically the bookshelf speaker should be of high power handling ability. This is one factor where many speaker brands disappoint. As their speakers get smaller from the tower models to the bookshelf models the power handling suffers. Emotiva is one brand that has excellent power handling in their bookshelf speakers such as the ERM-6.2.
Having a sub handle 80-70Hz and down enables one to move the sub around the room to get the best low bass response. This is not possible with the tower since it needs to be placed where the upper bass/mids/highs sound the best. This position is most times not the same place where the tower performs best in the 80Hz and lower range.
Many folks like the bass heavy sound from running the towers at full range or crossing them over too low at their -3dB point. Those that prefer flat and detailed bass will find this way too boomy. Some for example will cross over their tower to the sub at 40Hz because the tower is specified at -3dB's at 40Hz or 35Hz. This is a big mistake IMO! A high quality sub will perform much more effectively in the 40-80Hz range. This is exactly what it is designed for. Many tower drivers are on their last legs below 80Hz. A top sub should be quite flat up to about 100Hz or higher, -3dB.
I see so many people buy what they think are great towers. They go down to 40Hz or so at -3dB's so they don't think they need a sub for music. This doesn't mean that tower is producing the same low distortion at 50Hz as it is at 250Hz. Then they take the few pennies they have left over a buy a sub-standard sub (pun intended).
Buying a Emotiva ERT-8.3 is just fine as long as you still have the bucks to buy a great sub (I mean a great sub). Just don't cross it over at 40-50Hz because the specs show 45Hz at -3dB's. Well, why even buy the 8.3 then if the Nut says cross it over at 70-80Hz. The 8.3 will still have incredible slam from 70Hz and on up which few bookshelf speakers can match. If you have a few less bucks then for a great system get the 6.2 or 6.3 and match it with a great sub or two. Just don't get the 8.3 and match it with a $200-$400 sub.
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Post by BillBauman on Jul 9, 2011 21:23:42 GMT -5
A properly calibrated sub/bookshelf combo sound no different from a full range tower. This is where it all falls apart. I have never, ever, never.. I mean, never... heard a bookshelf/sub combo that made me think it was a tower. I would LOVE to hear this supposed audio nirvana. I do not believe it exists, but that doesn't mean it does not exist, it just means I have never heard it. If someone could set up a pair of bookshelves + sub and a pair of towers and make them indistinguishable to me (blind test, I'm always up for the blind swap testing), then I'll be a believer. Until then, I will pay the premium for high end towers. I understand that not everyone can afford that premium. I have certainly found that it does not come cheap, but I want the best sound - to MY ear - and that is where I find it. Someone else may actually prefer the book + sub combo, but I would challenge that same person to say they can't hear a DIFFERENCE between that and a well built, low-frequency-extending tower. There is a difference, and I prefer the tower. |
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Post by ÈlTwo on Jul 9, 2011 21:43:18 GMT -5
I love my combo, and I have it out of necessity.
My current speakers are bookshelves and a downfiring sub were in deference to having a small child.
It would be interesting to see if one could match bookshelves and a sub, or subs, to a full range tower.
Mind you, we now have to get into 2 way and 3 way speakers, and have to consider the size of the drivers used.
Even when I was comparing different JBL speakers, the size of the drivers made a huge difference in what I was hearing. Nothing but the highest end tower compared with my bookshelves, and I was willing to temporarily sacrifice the bass to have 4 identical speakers in my set up.
I have my speakers crossed over at 60Hz, and there is no localization in my room. The room will make all the difference; all it takes is one node to localize the bass. For my set up, I can sometimes swear the bass is coming from the FL and FR speakers , and I have to go check the sub to see that it's playing.
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NorthStar
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"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Jul 9, 2011 21:48:26 GMT -5
I'm with Bill on that! ...But you guys knew that already! ..As I said the same before.
_______________
For Movies, you can use 100 billion 36 inch drivers subs, and that's fine by me! Even throw it a couple of helicopters if you want to!
For Music, give me some great Full Rangers (Towers). NO SUB! ...That is for quality Music recordings; not crap like Rap, or Electronics, or Country, or Heavy Metal, or Bad Rock Punk Puke No Life Music from Hell!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2011 0:23:05 GMT -5
A properly calibrated sub/bookshelf combo sound no different from a full range tower. .....I have never.....heard a bookshelf/sub combo that made me think it was a tower......I would challenge that same person to say they can't hear a DIFFERENCE between that and a well built, low-frequency-extending tower. There is a difference, and I prefer the tower. I disagree with Jamrock on that statement. However, I think he probably meant to say that he felt an excellent sub/bookshelf combo sounds as good as a tower or better while not necessarily the same. I also disagree with Mr. Bauman since, presuming we are talking here about reasonably priced towers and combo's, I prefer the sound from the combo in many cases. The properly blended combo with a high quality sub will be more defined, extend lower and louder with less distortion. But then Mr. Bauman advertises Bose Wave radios on his website so what does he know about quality sound? ( ;D ;D ;D) (sorry, that's probably a childish wisecrack...I saw the Bose ad yesterday and couldn't resist) |
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Post by roadrunner on Jul 10, 2011 0:25:36 GMT -5
I'm with Bill on that! ...But you guys knew that already! ..As I said the same before. _______________ For Movies, you can use 100 billion 36 inch drivers subs, and that's fine by me! Even throw it a couple of helicopters if you want to! For Music, give me some great Full Rangers (Towers). NO SUB! ...That is for quality Music recordings; not crap like Rap, or Electronics, or Country, or Heavy Metal, or Bad Rock Punk Puke No Life Music from Hell! Bill Do I detect a certain bias against certain genre of music? ;D ;D I have to admit to sharing pretty much the same bias.   Most of my listening leans toward Jazz, Blues, Big Band, Orchestra, Classical, and Motown. I hate "amplified distortion" that gets called music, but dabble in just about every other genre. Too bad we don't live closer together. I suspect we each have a lot of music the other would love to listen too. I have owned both the Bookshelf/Sub and the Full Range Towers over the years and I can't say one is any better than the other if of equal quality. Both can sound quite exceptional. It is just harder to find bookshelf speakers with enclosures and drivers of equal quality to a good tower. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2011 0:44:08 GMT -5
It is just harder to find bookshelf speakers with enclosures and drivers of equal quality to a good tower. Great point by RR which I touched on above. I always say high quality/high power handling bookshelf speakers in the combo since so many brands cut corners on their bookshelves. The tower and the bookshelf should be virtually the same speaker except the bookshelf cuts off at 80Hz and the tower continues down and of course the enclosure size is significantly different which many times gives the bookshelf speaker an advantage with the upper bass, mids and highs sounding more defined and less boxy with less reflective surfaces to muddy up the sound. Put the Emo 8.3 and the Emo ERM-1 side by side and they should sound very similar (in the mids and highs) since the 8.3 is an ERM-1 in a slightly larger enclosure on top of two 8" drivers in their own enclosure. Emo does it right with the ERM-1 and ERM-6.2. Some other brands also do a good job on their bookshelf speakers but I mention Emo speakers because this is an Emotiva forum and I'm an Emotiva fan-old fart. |
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Jul 10, 2011 1:22:41 GMT -5
Now we just need some good Emo music.  * Pick your Music first. Then you can start thinking about the right electric reproducers. Sub included inside the box, or outside the box in another box. ...From a loudspeaker manufacturer who listen to the same type of great music as you!  Cool enough or not? ______________ Ronnie, having friends who live close to you and share the same type of great music as you, is a bonus of life! More so than similar electronics! I'm listening to the very best Soul Blues Music right now! And my blood is totally comfortable in all the veins of my body! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2011 5:19:12 GMT -5
A subwoofer can play at any level you want. And I noticed the deliberate use of the words 'artificial and unnatural' when you reference the sub sound/output. Not necessary. A properly calibrated sub/bookshelf combo sound no different from a full range tower. It is only that either the bookshelf section or the sub section can each output more decibels and sometimes cleaner & clearer than the 1 box solution because each section is individually optimized. You are not able to accomplish that in a 1 box wonder. In the BS/SW-C, each section can move that much more air. Secondly, there is no music genre that is better played back with a BS/SW combo or tower. The simple fact is that you have more flexibility with the BS/SW-C of tuning it on the fly to your taste. Hopefully, I'm understanding your post fully. Exactly! And the "new" definition of a sub as for only below 50Hz seems not to be held to by any sub manufacturer or consumer. To each their own. Even THX defines a sub as being for 80Hz and below, not 50Hz. |
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Post by BillBauman on Jul 10, 2011 5:32:47 GMT -5
But then Mr. Bauman advertises Bose Wave radios on his website so what does he know about quality sound? ( ;D ;D ;D) (sorry, that's probably a childish wisecrack...I saw the Bose ad yesterday and couldn't resist) I know you're kidding around, but just to be clear, you do realize that Google ads randomly selects that crap, right? I added ads to offset the cost of hosting the site, and thanks to gracious visitors, it's pretty much done its job. The site basically breaks even, which I think is great. |
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Jul 10, 2011 6:18:37 GMT -5
A true "sub-woofer" by traditional definition should only play below 50Hz or lower. In the "sub" bass range The range between 120-50 is really handled by a "woofer" like the ones usually found in towers. Now, that is not to say that you can't find a bass box that can play from 20-120, but in doing so you are bound to be sacrificing something. (ultimate output, flat smooth response, low end extension, etc) So I would say that in the "traditional" sense, your friend is right. I have things set up such that my XO is 80Hz and I still have the sub playing up to 12Hz per my house curve. Per measurements everything is working very well together and having subs front and rear seems to work very well at preventing localisation. If folks want an XO a bit lower, they can use a bit of EQ on something like the ERM-6.3 which has 2 x 6.5" drivers and is definitely capable of playing down to 60Hz or lower if needed (with EQ). Another option with great flexibility is a sub per speaker and that might still be cheaper than a full-range tower per channel in some cases. Things like the MiniDSP and REW help a lot for this kind of stuff. |
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Jul 10, 2011 6:28:17 GMT -5
A properly calibrated sub/bookshelf combo sound no different from a full range tower. Theoretically, yes, this is true. The problem is getting them tuned properly. Thanks for the link for the DSP Antimode eq. It seems like a great product, but it fails to cover one important (and difficult for me to get correct) setting. That is how loud the subwoofer is supposed to be. As I said before, I just cannot seem to get it right, and when I use YPAO (auto setup on my receiver) the bass seems to be too hot for music, and not loud enough for movies. Maybe I need to start a new thread here about subwoofwer tuning...not trying to thread jack you jamrock. I would LOVE to be able to perfect the "science" of properly tuning, calibrating, level setting, etc. of a sat/sub system as I believe you could ultimately get a much better sound for your money spent, IF everything was done properly. You will need a calibrated mic, something like REW and an EQ system (like the MiniDSP) to do this right IMO. The result is well worth it. One nice thing about the bass system on the UMC-1 is that you can increase the LFE level separately from the crossed over bass - but I think I only have 1db added so you can certainly get it right/close without needing that. I've also got a +12db house curve running from 120Hz down to 14Hz which seem to really work well with the 80Hz/12db XO from the processor. Go ahead and start a thread and I will give you my opinions and help with using REW etc. if you like. |
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Jul 10, 2011 6:29:42 GMT -5
When you set a sub's x-over freq too high, you run the risk of bass localization problems if the sub is not up front with your main speakers. This tends to happen (localization) with freqs >50Hz. So if you have everything up front, it is easier to blend everything in. If the best sub placement in your room is say behind you for smooth 50-20Hz sub-base and you have it cross high around 100Hz, it will be very hard to balance that system out vs a tower system crossed over at 50-60Hz with similar sub placement. The answer is more subs (front and rear). (This works for a lot of questions <G>) |
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Jul 10, 2011 6:36:03 GMT -5
A properly calibrated sub/bookshelf combo sound no different from a full range tower. This is where it all falls apart. I have never, ever, never.. I mean, never... heard a bookshelf/sub combo that made me think it was a tower. I would LOVE to hear this supposed audio nirvana. I do not believe it exists, but that doesn't mean it does not exist, it just means I have never heard it. If someone could set up a pair of bookshelves + sub and a pair of towers and make them indistinguishable to me (blind test, I'm always up for the blind swap testing), then I'll be a believer. Until then, I will pay the premium for high end towers. I understand that not everyone can afford that premium. I have certainly found that it does not come cheap, but I want the best sound - to MY ear - and that is where I find it. Someone else may actually prefer the book + sub combo, but I would challenge that same person to say they can't hear a DIFFERENCE between that and a well built, low-frequency-extending tower. There is a difference, and I prefer the tower. I would love to take part in such a test - maybe Emotiva can provide the gear to do it at Emofest (although I would not be able to go). I believe my system (with the added subs at the rear) is likely or very close to what you are after. The de-localisation and implementing the right curves/integration is critical and I believe it has to be measured. I'm sure my system has room for improvement too if I had the time/energy to EQ each speaker etc. I will leave all that experimenting to when I have a better room. |
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Jul 10, 2011 6:38:04 GMT -5
I have my speakers crossed over at 60Hz, and there is no localization in my room. The room will make all the difference; all it takes is one node to localize the bass. For my set up, I can sometimes swear the bass is coming from the FL and FR speakers , and I have to go check the sub to see that it's playing. I'm even getting that effect at 80Hz. The brain seems to take small directional queues and "merges the sound". This is especially true with movies where you may also have a visual cue as well. |
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jul 10, 2011 7:24:49 GMT -5
The apparent localization of bass is acceptable for movie playback. The bass should merge with the localized portion of the signal to give pseudo bass localization. If a train is passing from back to front at the right side of your H/T room, the total sound associated with that action should appear to come from the right side.
However, localization of bass for music playback is another matter and can be distracting. I have not been able to localize bass at 80Hz and less. But to further prevent against any possibility of localization, in my current system, I use the 24dB X/O slope on the sub. And to further reduce such possibility, using the EQ on the subwoofer channel, I reduced all bands above 89 Hz by the maximum -10dB.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jul 10, 2011 8:29:04 GMT -5
For the discussion to have balance, when we compare full range towers against BS/SWC, we need to make comparison of like quality as possible. I also believe that as rudimentary as it may seem, a bookshelf speaker should be differentiated from a sub/sat system. For clairifcation, my understanding of what consitute a bookshelf speaker is "A full range speaker without the lower bass section (80dB and lower). Good examples of bookshelf speakers would be the Emotiova ERM 6.2, ERM 6.3 and Aperion Verus Grand bookshelf.
I do not wish to offend anyone with this explanation, as I know that there are those here who know far more about the subject than I will ever know. However, I do see these mistaken equivalencies intermittently made in this wonderful discussion. Peace!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2011 8:30:04 GMT -5
This is a great discussion because I believe everyone has shared valid points.
I have experienced setups with high quality sat/sub systems that can rival great full range towers, but usually at some expense.
The weakness (slight as it may be), is that even some great monitors in existence tend to have a bump in frequencies to make them appear they are handling sub 80hz material. In reality they are not. For me, that is the critical difference between monitors and towers. A well designed tower can play the full spectrum without compromises.
Also, while I have enjoyed many monitors in my home over the years, the midrange is where the magic lives. A speaker needs to be flat and not over emphasize one area over another and from my experience, towers get closer to this scenario better than bookshelves, even with a quality sub.
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